The Future Of The ChuckShop

Oh, goodness.. So...DEPRESSING

:: cries ::

No, really, it's just another step. The shop will still be here. Not sure if new essays will come--probably not. But the shop will be here. There will be a drag before the book, I'm thinking. But. Once the book publishes, well, I'm sure people will want to be a part of submitting practices based on the techniques Chuck defines in his book. And this place all ready has a perfect set-up for it. Tried and tested, Cultist approved. Who knows what the future holds. Perhaps in years times, a school with an MFA program will develope similar to the Kerouac School in Boulder, CO. That would make the man happy, I'm sure. Just speculation. Who knows. But for next year, well, this is still all so new. Lotta writers out there. Lotta dedicated souls. People wanting to learn. This place provides such an environment. Just have to remind people of it all. I'm not too worried about the shop.

Plus..

The recaps will be here, and most of the people here have yet to homework all of the assignments to date, and there are several of us that are fluent with the nuts and bolts. Perhaps the loss of the essays will provide the need for more of the students here to work more closely with one another. My point being, I'm not too worried personally.

But, I'm up for brainstorming..

I think the idea of cultists posting lessons, that are approved would be a good idea. There are tons of different methods of writing and tons of topics that haven't been covered.

[QUOTE=Scottie Vollrath;949424]Have to agree just joined this year, paid the membership. Lots of good resources which I appreciate but I don't think I've learned anything about writing. Get summaries of Chuck's essays, wrote something with no replies. And still a terrible writer, have to be honest the workshop thing was quite a disappoint to me. Sorry sure I'm the asshole but I was so looking forward to learning something about writing, the only thing I learned is nobody gives a shit about what you write.[/QUOTE]

Have you filled out the [URL=http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/workshops/editProfile.php][color=cyan][b]workshop profile[/b][/color][/URL]? I need to know, because there's no link to it in your general profile. And if you've filled it out, then there should be. So maybe I can get a technical fix done if those links aren't propagating anymore. [color=cyan][b]Edit:[/b][/color] I think these links are all gone, at least for now. So instead, tell me the name you submit stories under--by PM if you prefer.

Also, I'd like to be able to easily reference your submissions and I'll maybe even write a review for you. I'm known to be pretty good at it. But your attitude sucks. Let me school you a little bit.

There's more education on how to write embedded in this website than people get in four years of college creative writing classes. I know, because I've done both tracks.

The problem is people come in greedy for attention and impatient, much more interested in gaining instant praise, acknowledgement and recognition than they are in putting in the work. Even with the best instruction and help, you can't learn to write overnight. Even with the best resources, learning to be good at this is the most demanding thing you'll ever place upon yourself. Also, while there's much to gain from honest reviews of your work, there's more to gain from other key areas:

[list=1]
[*][B]What are you reading lately?[/B]
*You'll probably never write anything better than the best literature in your habitual reading.

[*][B]Are you writing something every day?[/B]
*Whether anybody's reading it or not, you need to be writing.

Every writer on the planet deals with feelings of isolation and abandonment. Every writer struggles with the temptation to just get high or hang out with friends, instead of doing the work. Every writer sometimes gets frustrated, aggravated and pissed off with the effort to create something good. Every writer sometimes short-circuits and falls into depression in the [I]middle of writing[/I] [I][B]something good[/B][/I]. Every writer sometimes says: "This is not [I]work[/I] because nobody's payinig me for it, and it's not [I]fun[/I] because doing it well is too hard."

Every last one of us stares at a half completed piece and wonders if anyone will ever want to read it, anyway. You've got to kill the pussy part of yourself that makes you stop writing. No one else can do that for you. Praise and attention for your work, on any level, is a temporary drug that might bolster your confidence short-term, but reliance on it is lethal.

[*][B]Have you dug in and written a bunch of reviews in the shop? [/B]
*Did you do more than the minimum, without waiting around for reciprocation?

Not only does it set an example in the shop, when you do more than the minimum. Not only will it inspire others to do more.. But even more importantly, you'll teach yourself things when you're reviewing stories. You'll learn to read like a writer and review things with a view toward craft issues that non-writers don't understand. In the process, you'll teach yourself things that will directly benefit your own work. As much as you'll gain from reviews that people write for your stories, you'll probably gain more direct knowledge from the struggle to become a top notch reviewer yourself. We see it again and again. Learning to analyze what works and doesn't for a piece of writing is of more value to your own writing, ultimately, than soaking in suggestions, praise, and criticism. You must learn to be your own best editor. Reviewing tons of work you aren't as close to will help you go back to your own work with more objectivity and self-editing skill.
[/list]

When the original workshop was at it's strongest in late 2003, I got in there and organized it and motivated people like Spike, Alex, and izen to help me review the shit out of stories.

Then we caught a big wave of excitment with the advent of "Chuckshop" and people like Dr. Jekyll, inkwell, and jkabol did tons of work to give that shop the juice it needed.

After we had to pull Chuck's essays, and no new essays were coming, the excitment died down. People got busy with other things. Some of the original strong reviewers either burned out or moved on to other projects. Some of us burned the midnight oil for weeks and months on the anthology project, for example. When we lost the agent who was supposed to be getting it sold, we made a necessary decision to shelve that project for a while. Again, people moved on to other things. Unfortunately, anyone looking at the website as a fasttrack to fame and connections grew disenchanted. Likewise, anyone only here to soak up new exclusive Chuck-content every month, they fell off the wagon. People who were glued to their computers for two years reading Chuck's monthly essays and the Q&A sessions, they disappeared. Why would they do that if they'd only submitted maybe three actual assignments? Because most people want a new toy and a new stimulant and somebody to mostly do it all for them, much more than they want to do whatever it takes to become a professional writer, the actual, sometimes painful work it takes.

Me, I've been busting my ass to organize, promote, and facilitate our master's classes. And those classes are paying off for the people who do them. But for the people who aren't ready for that or can't afford the expense, the standard workshop and the "chuckshop" are sitting here just waiting for you. It takes more than poking around, writing a minimum number of reviews, then submitting one piece. If the shop is slow right now, get busy and make it unslow. Inspire people to follow your example.

Meanwhile, I'll show you the first student endorsement that's going on a new page just for endorsements of our Master's shop. This endorsement wasn't asked for, paid for, or solicited in any way. And it isn't "made up." However, quoting it to the forums and using it in other ways on the site is a permissioned act.

[Quote]
The short story that I developed in WCB's workshop came in 2nd in Ga' s lit festival and it more recently came in first in the Arts Alive Festival throughout the university system of georgia..." I think this info [knowing about the Cult's Master's Program] may be useful to students working on their MFA in fiction, as well. I have several friends who are working on theirs and they agree with me that the info and guidance I get from these workshops is unlike anything found in traditional education."

-kara kilgore

[/Quote]

I think there are more than enough people willing and waiting behind the scene to read anything you give them. I love logging on, checking the workshop and seeing new stories, I read them immediately and then copy and paste the story into microsoft word and read it again, highlighting parts in a different colour or adding comments wherever I think neccessary to use to construct a review.

I think though, to get the best out of it, you need to put your best into it. I know I've been lazy with reviews, and don't really deserve most of my helpful ratings, and I feel bad about that and want to really give each review my all. Some of the reviews I've seen about are great, vivid and spot on with their points, (Like Xec8's for my submission) and those are the kind of reviews I want to write. Also, with the story I submitted, I really didn't work on it to the end of my tether. My editting was lazy, and half-assed, and only really focussed on the words themselves, and not the story. Writing a story can happen into twenty minutes, but I feel VP's recaps, and Chuck's Essays are saying, if nothing else, that you can't get it perfect that first time around. My best stories are the ones it's taken me hours to get a page done for. Those ones where I've deleted and restarted and retyped and messed around with the first paragraph for so long, most of the rest of the story is obsolete, and I need to rewrite each other paragraph piece by piece to make it readable. Loads of writers have spoken about this, get down the basics then get down more, but they don't speak about it enough. I think that in itself is the core of writing. It should be called editting, really. Especially in this age with computers, when to change something requires just a click of a button, as opposed to the typewriting style most of the older folks might have used, when they'd have to tear out a whole page and throw it away.

My point is, to get the best from the workshop, you need to put your best in.

Also, if some paranoid author is skimming this thread, then write something about editting a story, not just the words in which the stories written. It's so important, and it's never spoken about.

I like the idea of writing essays for other members. But it will get nowhere if people just talk about doing it.
Tell you what: I'll write an essay about a particular technique that wasn't mentioned in Chuck's essays. I'll post it in a new thread, just to show you how I personally think one of those essays should look and read like. It doesn't have to be official. The point will be for everyone else to see what to expect a little bit. If the essay is found to be unsatisfactory by the rest of you, it's probably because I did it wrong or because I have very little good advice to give. But if it works, then perhaps we could have a place wherein to submit our essays for peer reviewal or something?
Anyways, I really do miss the workshop. The reviews I've been getting lately have been sub-par and I think it's partly because I no longer put in a big effort myself.
I'll get to writing it, just so we can progress instead of just brainstorming.

by the way, I'm not suggesting Your Protagonists Genitals as a topic. That was just an example.

[QUOTE=xec8;949756]No, I agree with you. I think a monthly thing is perfect. I'm only writing this essay so we can visualize the end result a little more clearly.
It's called "Tips Towards Creating Endearing Bad Guys," and the examples all come from modified fairytales.[/QUOTE]

go for it
I'll take May's then

Okay, my essay is up. If anyone reads it, please criticize its form and/or content so we can get it right.

Nevermind, I just found it.
For anybody else looking, just search the forums for "Tips for creating endearing bad guys"

/. .`

no, thanks. id rather not.

.

anyways..

[i]first things first:

thanks for the link, mark. 8sec, always always link your shit :D

and strongtom--in fact everyone--sign your shit. Sign by what name youd prefer your thoughts referenced, how youd like to be short-named. Also, this is a great way get to know each other. Considering some people have a series of numbers for a name and I don’t even know how to respond to their thoughts and generally find myself meekly not doing so--oh, and im not talking about you specifically, xec8, though I did just have to reference your name three times scrolling up and down to spell it correctly.
-kabol[/i]

Hey, yaw have made some great points. [b][size=3] sorry, scottie.[/size][/b] was a rough and exhilarating couple ah years, not only with the monthly deadlines but also with the personal sharing of the work, and this passed third year nutted my ambitions a little bit. But, who knows… maybe this fourth will prove to be the best yet..

most of us were new to writing, very new. Hell, by any writer’s standards, we still are. Most of us, at some point we’d read a chuck novel and felt the pull of desire toward writing. It’s not that he made it look easy or anything; I think it was more that he made fiction fun by not ONLY having the ability to write it well but also by having the charisma and charm to show that anyone can do it well.

I have 24 essays under my belt, consumed and fondled. 23 submitted stories slash essays, 197 reviews overall. And I got burnt out, most of the first class of students did. Doesn’t mean im burnt out completely. Just need a little boost.. it’s hard to show your work and await the honesty of strangers, especially when you are just starting out--youre vulnerable and don’t know how to how to deal with the pressure without workshop practice..

The thing is..

Most new people that come here, they didn’t run through the same hoops. Hell, I remember when e-j came here; I remember seeing him going back and sorting through the old threads, all vigorous and catching up. You just don’t see people doing that anymore. We also don’t send people to most of those great and well used threads anymore. [b]We need to either get back to the basics or create and STICK new basic threads for new people.[/b] I mean, I just don’t see PMCK submitting anything, or others from that first class. There were several of us constantly almost battling one another, like trying to improve by outdoing one another in hopes of making each other work harder.

A few of us got our start here, from scratch. I know that paul (the homie, pmck) started writing here. Same with myself. Several more.. youre right, Scottie, there are lots of great resources here. The question is, how are you planning on putting those resources to work..

I’ve seen authors come through real excited at first but not playing hard after a short few months; it takes a long time to become an experienced writer. Ive been at this for three years and four months, and I have a long way to go before im ready. but then, taking clevenger’s advice, you still wont know what youre doing.. baer’s of the honest belief that a novelist doesnt come into his/her own until at the least forty.

Nate, im with you on the write your thoughts essays and get other opinions, working the threads. Improving. There are so many nuts and bolts to writing. I remember when the chuckshop started, I internally questioned if chuck could possibly write 12 essays on writing, that surely there aren’t THAT many topics to go over. 24 months later, and--agreeing with nici here wholeheartedly--we’d barely touched the surface. Thank god chuck offered up further reading, like what Tolstoy said, or what hemingway or king wrote about writing, about Fitzgerald’s plight with Gatsby.. Got a lot of great reference material out of it all. Still, though, still scratching the surface. It feels that way at least.

So, yeah, im game. Im comfortably in my blue jeans and t-shirt, got my nikes on. Im ready

--about to jump and warp through that link
kabol

You guys are both right, of course. And I'm not a knee-jerk relativist, always pointing out that every perspective is valid. So strike the "of course." But in this case, you both happen to be right.

kabol is right that there was a time of greater activitiy and flourishing. corellion, that he is personally an exception to a couple of kabol's otherwise well-founded generalizations.

And it IS harder to be an exception, at a time when overall activity has slumped, than it is to be one of the happening crowd at a high point.

But you guys can sweep lots of that debris off the tracks, because a new train's coming down. It doesn't all gotta happen at once, no. But band together and review each others stories, and suggest old threads that are good ones for craft, and start a new one occasionally. It's already happening. No one needs to put such a rush on, or pressurize a peer group to the point where you'll burn out fast, just trust that it's happening and proceed at your own pace. This shop is coming alive again.

On my own front, you'd never believe the three people I'm currently exchanging email with on possible upcoming master's shops. So if that's anywhere inside your window of possibility, at all, then put a little back for it. But I promise my own efforts won't stop there, and many good things are going to happen for every level and corner of the shop.

the baer class sold out pretty quickly. the only reason that i was able to partake is because he allowed a few more students to join.

a clev one would be badass. those masters classes, theyre rather incredible, VP..

as for submitting and reviewing, im currently working on my first coming of age story and my first real noir project, so within the next month or so ill be in the guts of the workshop, no doubt
kabol