Chuck's Plans For The 2009 Workshop
Greetings, all! 2009 is officially underway, so I wanted to take a little more time to hone down and elaborate on Chuck's wonderful post from January 2nd. There's a lot to digest there, and while Chuck got to the meat and potatoes of it, he didn't quite explain all the other amazing things that were featured on the dish.
First though, let's revisit those big bullet points again, just so I'm sure you all understand exactly what is happening here:
- In early February, we are unveiling a new version of the website.
- This site will feature a brand new Writer's Workshop. This is not our old Workshop with some added bells and whistles. Rather, this is a completely updated Workshop, with a whole new interface.
- Starting in February of 2009, we will be selecting approximately five Workshop submissions each month that will then be sent to Chuck Palahniuk.
- Chuck will read your work, review your work, and best of all, suggest ways to improve your work.
- Then, at the end of the year, Chuck and the editors on our site, will select the best stories of that year, to be published in an Anthology for 2010.
- The Anthology will include an Introduction by Chuck, and he will even go so far as to seek out and fund the publication of this book.
Now, I want you all to take that in for a moment. This is an unprecedented opportunity for writers, the likes of which have never been matched before. A best-selling author is not only going to possibly read your original work, but is also going to help you improve upon it, and even help you get it published!
Hopefully, you all don't need me to tell you that, anything with Chuck's name on it at this point, will not only be seen by millions of people, but will probably sell quite well. This is a tremendous chance of exposure for you writers out there, but more importantly, it's a chance to put yourself out there... take a chance... and possibly determine your career, by doing what you love. Finally.
I'm an independent filmmaker. It's all I want to do in the world. But like many of you reading this, with your writing, I'm stuck in the trenches right now. If I had the equivalent opportunity to do something like this with my writing and directing, nothing on Earth would stop me from taking that dive.
Chuck has some other huge secrets up his sleeve. He plans to do quite a lot with the selected Anthology writers. But he wants to reveal these other surprises gradually, throughout the year.
For now, please review a summary of what our site is offering right now, so that you may understand how important it is to act now and sign up for Premium Membership.
- For a total of three years now, Chuck has participated with our Writer's Workshop by submiting craft essays to the site. These essays served as lessons on writing, from his own personal toolbox of tips and how-to's. The experience and instruction included in these essays easily surpasses what you would learn in a $24,000 MFA program.
- Currently, all 36 of these essays are available in our Workshop, for Premium Members only.
- Premium Membership not only gets you access to these crucial lessons from Chuck, but also enters you into our Writer's Workshop, a unique experience to submit your writing and have it read and reviewed by your peers.
- Our Writer's Workshop was created in 2003. Since then, it has evolved into a place where independent novelists, poets, screenwriters and essayists, come to improve upon their craft. Many of our writers have gone on to become published, and look back at their experience in our shops as a pivotal time in their writing lives.
- Premium Membership in 2009 enrolls you into our Writer's Workshop and not only grants you access to all 36 craft essays from Chuck Palahniuk, but also his monthly Q&As with writers, his Homework Assignments, and of course, the Workshop experience itself.
So if you have been waiting to jumpstart your writing again, or for the first time, don't wait any longer. This is the bell of opportunity that you've been waiting for.
Our current Workshop is open, but any submissions you make there will be erased come early February, 2009. So if you have joined the Workshop recently, or are planning to today, you can use this time to brush up on Chuck's lessons by reading through his essays.
You can also use this thread to post any questions or comments you have about this all, and our amazing crew will do their best to answer them.
Comments
Look, I wasnt trying to offend you, I'm tonal. I've learned from my own personal experience, it's who you know more than what you know. I'm tired of that concept, but if I have to kiss an ass, I only wanted to know who's?
Hahhhahaahha...kittens, you crack me up
I'll just say about Vig, Kabol, KC, etc. - DITTO
The cream will rise, so bring your "A" game. If you get really involved, and read and review, SOLID work, then who is to say you can't submit a really strong story over and over again each month, improving it, while also adding new stories to the mix. This is really up to you guys. If I was single with few responsibilities, you know what I'd do? I'd write my ass off, and read and critique every damn story here, and just dominate these workshops. What the hell do you have to lose? So you never get picked, and don't get in. You're no worse off than you were 12 months ago. Take the shot, you'll learn and grow as a writer, and make new friends.
Bring it. Bring your heart and soul, your true writing voice, and shine, man. These opportunities do NOT come along very often.
I can honestly say the the true writers here at the Cult, not the jokers and posers, are smart, giving, and extremely talented.
Peace,
Richard
You also need to understand that you can't show up here for a few weeks or even a few months in late 2008 and claim any kind of perspective on this writing community. You've tooled around in our workshop at a time when it's been at half-mast and semi-functional, a time of rebuilding, a time when many of our regulars have abstained from using it.
That doesn't mean there aren't black belt fucking writers who love this website, people who've used our shop for years.
Among our moderators are people like JKabol and Mark Grover who've each written well over a hundred reviews in our original workshop, and put more thought and effort into writing a single review than some people put into the first draft of their own damn story.
Among our moderators are people like Kasey Carpenter and Richard Thomas who've not only shaped their skills for years in our shop, but also participated in many of our intensive classes with visiting authors. (Kabol and Grover have both done this, too...)
But let me pick on Richard, in particular, for a minute. Despite a full-time job, and responsibilities to a wife and their twin children, he's participated in three of our special intensive classes and every time he's been a reviewing machine. I assign him to a peer group of five people and instead he reviews stories for All 20 people in the class. And I'm talking about a line-by-line mark-up with margin notes, plus a tight summary review of 200 or 300 words, on each. He's consistently cheerful, generous, and helpful and if he didn't also demonstrate a very human level of insight in everything he writes, I would consider that he might be an android.
Thus, I asked him to join our staff.
The guys I'm introducing you to are my moderators for the new Workshop, and you need to take your cues from them. You don't need to kiss their asses, but you need to watch what they do and you need to listen to them. And you need to understand that when one or more of them gets a story of his own placed in this anthology, which will probably happen, it isn't because I like him or know him. They'll most likely get some of their own work included, because they've dedicated themselves enough to the craft. They've cut some teeth here. They've gained some chops. At least one of them will produce a story that truly kicks ass. They don't kick ass because I like them and know them. The reason I like them and know them is because they kick ass. In a good way. Richard's in an MFA program right now (a low-residency program that allows him to go on working full time and being a dad) and this is the place he got good enough to qualify for it-- more than good enough to qualify for it. It's probably almost embarrassing how far his work stands above the average MFA candidate.
The dedication is what counts. Natural talent counts. too, but dedication counts more. And after that, specific techniques.
Maybe you'll learn some secrets from these guys. For example, maybe you'll learn that the time you invest in writing high-quality reviews for other writers actually teaches you more about your craft sometimes than writing an original story does. Editing others, you learn to edit yourself.
The Cult is a lot of things to a lot of people. You need to learn to distinguish the serious writers from people who only play grabass in the forums. Not to form an elitism against the forum dwellers, but only to understand that different norms apply. I'm really fond of some of the more casual users of our site, just like I love our writers here... and I've known people in both categories and people who straddle those categories, and I've known some of them for years now. But that doesn't give them an "in" with me that a serious writer who's new to the site doesn't have. And it also doesn't preclude the possibility that some of those more casual members have been laboring away at their craft in private, and they'll stun us all when this new incentive causes them to participate in the workshop.
It's still going to come down to the quality of the work, not the relationships. The quality of the work will determine what gets published in the anthology. The quality of the relationships you form will help you receive a quid pro quo of helpful reviews, and must also meet an acceptable minimum standard of respectful and cooperative behavior to keep you from getting banned.
If you'd read carefully enough in the follow-up posts to these big announcements, you'd know that a number of excellent readers will be nominating stories for consideration. Let me add to that picture: I'll be taking the total pool of nominations each month and stripping them of ALL IDENTIFYING INFORMATION, before passing them to one of two editors who are alternating for us each month, who are not myself, and who are not participating or reviewing anything from within the workshop at all, not until I hand it to them. It's not your business who the nominators are or who the editors are. Your business is to bring your A-game, your best attitude, and do your best work.
The editors will determine which five stories Chuck will see each month, out of a total pool of nominations that could rise as high as 20 or even 25 stories--each and every month!--if our readers are making radically different selections from one another. And they will not be comparing notes with one another about selections. When the Top 5 determination is finally carved out, the editor for that month will confer with me to repatriate the identities to the stories and to make sure that we aren't sending two stories from the same person to Chuck inside the same calendar month. In the unlikely but quite possible event that two stories from the same person have made that initial Top 5 cut, I will personally contact that autnor and give him or her the choice of which one goes to Chuck. This helps insure that the best material rises to the top, while also extending fairness and maximizing choice for all involved.
When you add the depth of consideration that's gone into the process I'm describing to the hours and hours of painstaking work that's gone into the Workshop's technical rebuild--the whole site rebuilt that you'll see in just a few days--maybe something will start to click in your mind and you'll understand that we're not a bunch of backslapping chums and casual hobbyists who stroke each other off and laugh at the new people. The loose standard of behavior that we accept in General Discussion does not pertain to the Workshop. The insider jokes, the flippancy, the little cliques--that's watercooler behavior, man. The people who only post in General Discussion and post there a whole lot and never use this workshop opportunity are people turning a 15-minute gossip break into all-day fun, and they're free to do so and do so with our blessing.
But something else is going on with this Website. Something bigger. And it's been quietly building for years.
I haven't been fucking around here for six years of my life just because it's a cool place to hang out. And if you're serious about your craft and ready to get even better, all the while helping other writers in the shop by showing them the highest consideration in the reviews you write--and all the while turning that high-quality, high-commitment reviewing experience into an even more refined capacity to edit yourself--then we don't need to be buddies or pals or friends or even talking to each other on a first-name basis for your story to have just as good a shot as anyone else's story.
Just sober up in your attitude and come at it with a clear head. Filter out the douchebaggery from your posts.
You won't insult the integrity of our process here without me taking it personally, because I give too much of myself to this community to take it any other way.
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Really Mr. Kitten? That's an odd thing to ask, especially in a public forum: Tell me whose ass to kiss so that I can succeed. I find that statement a little troubling.
The driving force for the writer's workshop here has always - and will always be, I suspect - talent and dedication.
I've been silent thus far but wanted to take this opportunity to thank all the staff members of the Cult. We're benefiting from their blood, sweat and tears, both digital and analog. Most specifically I want to give a nod to the greek god known as Vigorous Puppy - besides the yeoman's work here, I know him to be a stand-up guy and a good colleague in all things writing and camping.
That being said, I can't properly convey to anyone how I excited I am about this without first taking off my pants.
I've got a lot of history with the Cult, but not a lot of it is recent. I've seen some remarkable talent in the workshop over the last several years, and blatant whore that I am, will use this as an excuse to climb back in the pool.
Really though, it's a great kick in the ass because I haven't been writing enough lately, but more than that, this little enclave of writers is a beautiful corner of the universe where I cut my teeth several times over, and am excited to do so again. I cannot wait to start reviewing the crap out of stories, and am working on a short story to eventually submit. It's about a pigeon!
I would love to get picked for the anthology. The only reason it won't happen is if I don't produce the best writing I can, whilst at the same time failing to contribute some thread to the fabric of the workshop (they're interwined, you see).
Anyway, Mr. Kittens, speaking from experience, I know that the workshop is a wonderful experience easily spoiled by people who care less about working together toward a common goal of improvement and more about posting stories to collect a few accolades. Everyone suffers. So, not to be too accusatory, but for all our sakes, people consider your reasons before jumping into this pool.
kittens,
In this case you are sorta right in that, you know that to be a part of this you need to join, and then submit. So knowing who you need to know involves Dennis, Vig, and the others that will be moderating/editing this whole affair, oh and some guy named Chuck. oh and knowing that the stories will be judged blindly, i.e. no names involved, and with several controls in place to guarantee no nepotism, no backscratching or blackballing. So if you are serious, then we all look forward to getting to "know" you via what you write...
-kc
hleJAC,
Kudos to toughing it out at a bookstore. Conservative? I thought we were pretty liberal around here when it comes to publishing, we take whatever we can get! If you are trying to mate conservative to traditional and liberal to independent publishing (I think that is what you are trying to convey) then sure, we all favor the more mainstream/traditional outlets because, despite the blogosphere and all, those channels are still the leaders in their field. The top blogger still hasn’t supplanted the top published author in terms of greasy dirty money or eyeballs who read his/her works. Same with musicians on Myspace versus MTV. Directors on YouTube versus those backed by Fox.
Is that wrong? Not really, it’s just The Way Things Are, for now. Did those who went the big route sell out? Maybe. And then again maybe they are happy that their works are being heard by the largest audience possible (and that they can quit their dayjobs in the process.)
But in the context of this thread, and in line with your original concern about putting your work on a blog or some other concurrent platform of publication, never would anyone here say (myself included) that you should rule out any form of alternative publishing.
But if you happen to submit a work that makes it into the Anthology, what happens if a publisher balks at it because of being “previously published” elsewhere? What if that makes your piece get kicked out?
I’m not saying it will, but I am saying it could. And why would you run that risk, at least at this stage of the game? Granted, I doubt it will be an issue, but you also have to factor in that 1)publishers have a huge pool of talented lawyers who run on the paranoid side when it comes to rights, licensing, etc… and 2) the publishing world isn’t exactly dying to take on new responsibilities right now, in light of their own grave situation. So why give them a reason to kick something back if you don’t have to?
I’m all for sticking it to the man, and I’m all for the new publishing model, however it unfolds over the next few years, because something has to, and something will give – in a large thudding way. Maybe it’ll be e-books, maybe it’ll be POD, maybe it’ll be a restructuring of how book deals are written, no one knows yet, but everyone knows the current model just isn’t working.
So for the sake of this Anthology, for the next year, I’d keep as many checks in the “For” column for my work as humanly possible, and remove as many of the “Against” checks as I could, and sort out the issues afterwards.
At the end of it all you may have a whole slew of new material you can post up and let everyone enjoy, then again you may have something of far greater value that could help you to leverage a writing career…
-kc
I'm so pumped to get this whole thing started!
Around what length should the stories be?
Ok, let me clarify. I am equally excited about the whole thing if not more. I never went to college, this IS my schooling. I've been reading and writing for years, since I was still at the knees, and this is my one ticket to doing something with it. I just wanted to fit in and thought a good way to get my paw in there was to say something that stood out, and it did. Either I have made a mistake, or maybe this is just the bad publicity I needed. I hope you guys will take me more seriously in the future. I'm not fooling around when it comes to the project, but when I'm off the clock. . .
There is no hard limit. However, knowing the way the attention-span factor plays into getting a fast response and several useful peer reviews... and even more importantly, thinking ahead to the editorial process with an awareness that we'll probably want to include as much of the best work as we possibly can, I've been recommending that everyone show us the best 3,000 words of anything that's longer. That's usually around 10 pages, double-spaced, 12 pt font.
That doesn't mean butcher a beautiful 3,500 word piece that can't withstand any cuttiing. It also doesn't mean stretch a beautiful 1,200 word short that feels complete, just to hit some arbitrary size standard... but it could mean cutting the deadwood and tightening the plot structure for some stories... it could mean saving only the best parts in something that goes 6,000 or 7,000 words and feels like it rambles a bit.
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^ Okay, thank-you very much. I'm excited!
@ vigorous puppy, loving the passion here.
It made me re-examine my initial contribution. I wanted to submit something that was written pre-last few weeks, tweak it, then slap it in on the first day of the new workshop submission window. So I'd already had something that was 'out there' to be looked at whilst I worked on other stuff.
Maybe 'play-the-system' a bit. But this was wrong, wrong, wrong. I'd been cheating myself, not applying what I'd learnt from the essays, cheating myself in order to get a mediocre 1UP, and cheating the other writers slogging their guts out to write to new stuff especially for this new workshop relaunch. Maybe you're only as good as your last victory, and maybe we shouldn't rest our laurels on past victories. We should be chasing that new challenge, looking for that new victory.
I was working my nuts to have this ‘new’ thing by the window opening, and as we all know, sometimes you just can’t force the magic, and you’ve got to let it simmer. Crazy from no sleep, Friday evening I just wanted to burn the thing, go to bed, wake up some time in March. Over the weekend, I did nothing, the site was down from the relaunch, and when it came up last night, I saw those first entry submissions. I felt angry. Jealous. I wanted to be on there. But then I felt pumped, rested, motivated, and have been back on the horse, hungry for getting something finished that I‘m happy with, that will entertain people, not just make some shortcuts. We all know the line: make us laugh, teach us something, then break our hearts. There’s no point filling the shelves with something you know isn’t your best and is a waste of other people’s time, too.
So my question, to you vigorous and the other mods, is what deadline date are we looking at each month for the stories? That cut-off for stories to be considered for that crop of 5 for the month? Having a quick peak at the star system, is it the highest ranked by stars that get pooled for contention?
Good luck to everyone. Look forward to giving and getting some quality feedback. And great job to all those who are making this work so far, you know who you are, even if we don’t.
“C’mon you bunch of apes, you wanna live forever?”
VP, you are a force to be reckoned with. Thanks for the props, you are too kind. I appreciate all of that.
Side note. I WAS rather surprised at the quality of the MFA writers. Now, granted, there were only about 40 total in the whole program, about 12 fiction writers, and everybody has their own style - fantasy, sci-fi, minimalist, YA, horror, literature, romance, etc. So I didn't dig it all, just on a taste level. What I will say, is that I have read more good fiction in the intensives here, then I will ever read in my MFA.
I'm not saying this to toot my own horn or brag, but just to let you know the level of writing that has been the minimum here at the Cult, and in the intensives. I already see people here from the intensives, and I'm happy about that. I want us to blow Chuck away. And if I'm lucky, maybe I'll get in too. Heck, I know right away if I have to compete with Kabol, KC, Grover, and VP alone, that I'm facing stiff competition. As I see guys like Phoenix, and Golding here, I nod my head, knowing it'll be a throw down. But it's also a community. The best writers are also the best teachers, and they'll choose their moments to speak up, and help where they can. We all have different strengths and weaknesses.
This is going to be cool. Already is. Good luck all.
Peace,
Richard
PS-And lets have some fun too. It's all good.
I'm considering the deadline to be the actual endpoint of the calendar month. You know, 11:59 pm on the last day of whatever month we're in. Let me get back to you on whether that will be Eastern or Pacific Time here in the U.S.
The entries are all time and date stamped.
That said, it may take a couple of weeks beyond that endpoint to know what our Top 5 selections are, because the people making the nominations will need to give a fair shake to things that came in at the 11th hour of the last night. Then the editors will need some time, too. But the new stuff that's landing in the early days of the month that follows will not be dragged into the process prematurely. Say it's March 7th and we still don't know what the February Top 5 list is... that doesn't mean a March 2nd entry will get snagged up for immediate consideration; rather, all March entries will be awaiting determinations in April. Simple.
A set group of preselected nominating readers have been chosen and given the task of choosing the best five submissions each month. Each nominator will act independently, not confering with the others and behaving as if his or her own selections are a final determination; however, I will be collecting this individually chosen Top 5 set from a number of different nominators, stripping out the identifiers, and handing the total pool to our guest editor for that month, to whittle it down.
The nominating readers have been instructed to use public star ratings as a guide to finding the best material, but not a determining factor. We don't want workshop members shooting each other down in the ratings to improve personal odds; therefore, the moderators know to look for various signs of ratings suppression. And the nominators know to look at those public ratings, but also to look deeper. A nominating reader might champion a story with a 3-star rating, if the public rating seems artifically suppressed by injudicious reviewers, while ignoring a 4-star or 5-star story that seems hyped up by some group of the author's best friends.
We've been at this long enough to structure a tiered process where 'public' opinion counts, but not too much. We know how to screen out various forms of fakery and abuse.
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vigorous, once again, your input has been immense. Thank you. Apologies if any of these questions are posted/answered elsewhere.
Scanning the Workshop Help, regarding the submission ‘grace period’, what’s your/mod’s view to the amount of submissions available before this closes? And there after, is it 1-point per decent review? Or something like 1-point for an ok review, 2-points for a good, 3-points for an excellent review?
Also, when a piece is submitted for a specific window, is it eligible for any further windows there after? Say, you have a tough month, 6 great 5*Star submissions but for argument’s sake, only 5 get voted/make it, 1 has to go. The month after, the work quality falls a little lower, say you have 5 great 4*Star submissions. The 5*Star submission that missed out last month would’ve made it this month, but was submitted for the month prior. Is it all down to lottery of the month you submit? Or in this scenario would you just have to spend credits to re-submit and play it that way?
Lastly, in submitting reviews back, is there anyway to send the author back an annotated/resaved copy of their work, i.e. using the Word comment/highlight function? I see you can’t do suchlike with a PM. The point would be so you can line-edit specify what lines do/don’t work (those ‘laugh-out-loud’ moments, where it clugs) without having to waste time referring to line x of paragraph z… I was thinking this would be in addition to the 500 words review guideline
Sorry, just seen my first question answered elsewhere. My bad. Naughty mav.
Answers to second and third would still be appreciated, thanks.
I'll let Mark clarify the second question, since I'm not entirely up to speed on the process.
As for the third question, when you leave a review, you'll notice that below the area you type in notes there is an area where you can attach a file it should read "File Attachments".
If you browse some of the submissions that have already received reviews, you should see that some people have already done this.
However, take into consideration that the inline editing functions in Word are not compatible in all software. As such, it might be worth it for you to see what some of the other members do to overcome that limitation.
Thanks for you comments Kirk.
So the specific feedback you give for each piece is given under the same comment text which appears under the 'stars rated' & #'d comments? So basically no feedback is secret, it's all open for all to see?
Thanks for the Word commet/hilight heads up.
For the sake of organization and the staving off of madness, I'm pretty sure we'll have to deal only with submissions date-stamped to the calendar month under consideration. If you submit a five-star story in a month that's so dang strong that your excellent story doesn't make the cut... and the following month is so weak that we're grimacing at the paucity of choices, throwing up our hands for what to send to Chuck, we may actually contact you and ask you to re-submit your last-month's story that almost made it. Possibly you can re-submit it with some minor polishing based on your peer feedback, making an already excellent story even better, as well as putting it back into the mix when it can really shine.
As Kirk noted, File Attachments can be added to your Review posts to provide Line-by-line mark-ups, where desired. Just make sure that if you're using something like Microsoft Word's Track Changes feature, that the recipient will actually be able to view the line notes. I was concerned about this regarding people who open Word docs with the excellent open source software from OpenOffice.org. I notice now that the latest version of OpenOffice.org's Writer freeware for word processing actually has an analogue to the Track Changes feature, but it may be called something different and hidden under a different section of the dropdown menus. Confer with your peers about their abilities at viewing the comment bubbles in those fancy high-end editing features... just as Kirk mentioned. If it's a difficulty, you might want to try an alternate strategy, like red ink right in the margins and scanned to a PDF.
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Yes. If you really want to share extensive feedback in private, you'll have to arrange to do that by e-mail correspondence. But that's a little contrary to the spirit of the shop.
yes, yes. to viggy you listen.
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the spirit he speaks of pertains to the recreation of the spirit of a three-d real workshop. the derivation of this place was the setting of the tom spanbauer workshop chuck attended (and still attends regularly). the object is to read your story aloud and other members take notes and offer those notes verbally. then it's the next member's turn--for differing points of view,a nd members can feed off of one another to further points or contradict them, or ignore them entirely. and then the next time youre up, you bring the revised version, or something new to work on; your choice.
controversy, or opinion:
there have been many discussions over the years as to whether it is appropriate to read the other reviews before you post your own. over the years, i have gone from not doing so to religiously doing so. i personally think it's best to read the story and craft your review, but before you post the review to the story you should read the other reviews to see if you strongly agree or vehemently disagree with some of the advice, and you can counter with your own. just like a physical workshop with members around a table talking. i dont often read opinions that i feel a need to comment on, but i will from time to time find importance in voicing something i agree or disagree with. strictly for perspective.
-kabol
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thumbs up