Chuck's Plans For The 2009 Workshop

I've never joined Premium, so I remember hearing something about a point system...can you elaborate more on this if it's being implemented in the new workshop? Also, can you touch on the submission and review process?

Thanks a lot, we all appreciate this great opportunity!

This will be worth every penny guys, so get involved Cult writers.

the point system..

we are moving onto a point system with the new workshop. honestly, i was a bit skeptical with the point system in place of the five-to-one ratio. only at first, though.

the particulars of point system will be explained and it is very easy. all you have to do, though, is craft helpful reviews and give honest feedback and your points will build quickly. the way everything is set up is so much easier than prior workshops that it will become rather simple to learn everything within a day or two of exploration.

as for the review and submission process:

the specifics are kept hush hush for now. clay mark and kirk have ingeniously devised a whole new system and it's their surprise. it is badass, i'll offer that.

but basically, you build points by reading and reviewing submissions. your peers rate if the review is helpful. you gain more points by being given "very helpful". when you build enough points, you submit your own work for your peers to read and review. you rate the reviews. then, wash rinse repeat.
-kabol

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thumbs up

Greetings to everyone that I have worked with these past few years in the intensives. I am breaking my radio silence for the moment to say thank you to everyone for putting this together. This is an amazing offer, and I only echo previous statements that have said the same. But still, it deserves to be said again. Thank you guys.

I had a very specific writing plan in place for 2009, and now this puts some wrinkles into my plan. Great wrinkles, though.

I am sure all answers will be forthcoming, but I do have a question. Will this anthology be exclusive to only unpublished material, or will previously published pieces be allowed in? Some of my best work came DIRECTLY from the initial Chuck Shop, and I have been rewarded this year with some publications. I just want to know whether to dust them off again here, or let them stay in retirement.

Again, thanks for all your hard work guys. And you’ll be seeing a lot of me these next eleven months.

Keith

Quick question about the point system: At the start, who will get to submit their writings? Clearly if we are starting from scratch, in order to build points we'll have to have essays to read and review to build points off of.

Ology, from what I've heard there'll be a brief window in which we may all, point-free, submit stories. I'm looking forward to this, I understand undertaking something like it is going to be a huge headache to the administration team, and will no doubt furrow many a moderator's brow, so please take this as an expression of my utmost gratitude to you folks; Dennis, Mark, Mirka, Clayton, quirky Kirky, and company. Not to forget Mr. Palahniuk himself, who's very generous to help us with all this stuff. There are no authors out there who go to the lengths he does to please his fans; boxes of presents for letter writers. books and sex-toys flung out at readings and thirty six craft essays on this site for people he's had a huge hand in inspiring to write. My hat is off to the man.

Regarding the Chuck review, will writers get a chance to redo their stories on the feedback of other workshoppers before it gets passed along to the man? Also, will his feedback be public, as a sort of community lesson, or private? I assumed private but could certainly understand if it was made public.

Also, does a new version of the site involve a new colour scheme? A header change? Can we get a picture of Chuck smiling?

I would very much so like to subscribe for the premium membership my only question is about submitting work to be read, will it be a problem if I live in Canada?

No, it wouldn't be a problem. Why the username?

its just been my nickname for awhile now and it's kinda grown on me. thanks for the info

the cult itself is getting a facelift. and from what i understand, the reason chuck wants five random submissions every month is so that he can offer his thoughts for improvement for everyone to learn from. so, i'm thinking that all feedback is public, necessarily. and chuck will get the submissions via random choice. we'll weed out the ones that dont specify not wanting involvement, and the ones that dont make any sense--like glitches or mistakes in submitting the grocery list in place of the .doc file, that sort of thing. but other than a few little checkpoints, what chuck gets is random and done automatically. he'll hit back in his own time. probably around the middle of the following month, though.

So through random submissions to Chuck are you hoping that ones will be chosen that are good enough for the anthology, or will there be another process for that?

I was assuming it would be the anthology ones heading to Chuck, the better stories. This sounds a little fairer, the random element. I approve!

I would imagine it would be better if some of the ones he gets are ones that aren't very good, or at least the ones in the most need for help. It's a lot easier to show where things don't work or why they don't work and what to do to make them better then just showing a good piece and saying here do like this.

Will this anthology be exclusive to only unpublished material, or will previously published pieces be allowed in? Some of my best work came DIRECTLY from the initial Chuck Shop, and I have been rewarded this year with some publications. I just want to know whether to dust them off again here, or let them stay in retirement.

Again, thanks for all your hard work guys. And you’ll be seeing a lot of me these next eleven months.

Keith

Hi Keith,

I'm glad you'll be around for this.

Currently, we're working on the release form everyone will e-sign when choosing to make a submission eligible for the anthology.  As fast as the new site is launched in February, you'll be able to read the particulars of that agreement for yourself.  At this precise moment, it hasn't reached its final form.  At minimum, it will require that anything you submit be your own original work and you warrant, as well, that you are the lawful copyright holder.  That would mean that if you've published it elsewhere, you did so under an agreement where all rights revert to the author within a reasonable span of time (i.e., you sold them First North American Serial Rights and not All Rights).  That would be the minimum. 

The piece you submit for anthology consideration must be legally under your control to offer for publication.  Beyond that, I'm not sure.  If the language in the agreement specifies "original unpublished material" then we've opted to restrict this anthology to work which hasn't appeared elsewhere.  If that precise language doesn't appear, then we've opted to leave it open for work you've developed in this workshop but also had the good fortune to place elsewhere.  It may be reasonable to allow for that contingency, since some members have been using this workshop for five years or more--but I'm a little up in the air on my own feelings about it. 

I think our preference would be for original unpublished material, even if we opt not to be absolutely restrictive on this point.  Since the anthology should showcase the power of the workshop and since the workshop is an ongoing process, my feeling is that someone in your shoes should be plowing ahead to even stronger work... and it's that much more exciting to grab something hot off the fire, still glowing orange and malleable.  Don't forget that Chuck will be offering feedback for the improvement of any piece that he considers for the anthology, so it might be best to offer up work that hasn't quite cooled into its final form.

Let's see, other questions and other points touched on above:

Yes, my understanding is we'll make the feedback public and this will provide a learning opportunity for many more people than just the selected authors.  Chuck's commentary on five pieces each month will be what he does for the whole workshop, in place of new distinction essays this year.

Yes, everyone who composes good work in English is eligible.  As far as I know, we don't care if you're from England, Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, or even Japan, as long as you've mastered the English sentence.  At least, I haven't heard anything to the contrary and I've had no reason to even question it.

Yes, there will be an open submissions period of unspecified duration, followed by a very reasonable points system that let's you quickly and easily achieve enough points to make a submission, just by writing quality reviews.

No, selections for Chuck won't be completely random.  Sorry to contradict JKabol, but we considered that option and then overturned it, in favor of a system for seeing the strongest material rise to Chuck's attention.  My feeling is that merit should be rewarded, rather than this whole thing feeling like just a big lottery.  Writers like to feel rewarded for working hard and being good at what they do... and that's a very different thing from the motivation to buy a lottery ticket. 

Beyond that, there is simply no efficient way to give Chuck completely random selections to hash up, while simultaneously shaping the strongest possible anthology.  That's why we've chosen five nominators who are skilled readers with an understanding of Chuck's essays, but also possessing diverse and individual tastes.  These nominators will be reading everything that enters the workshop.  They will be taking public ratings as a guide to finding the best material, but also exercising individual taste and discretion.  Each nominator will name the best five submissions each month.  They will submit these nominations directly to me without cross-referencing amongst themselves and with no concern for however much overlap might exist in the stories being named.

I will take the total pool of nominations each month and strip them of all identifying information.  In that form, with no room for personal favoritism to creep in, the nominations will be read by two editors with the job of determining the best five for Chuck to read and comment on.

Alternatively, we might select one "wild card" submission each month, so that a person whose work isn't very developed still stands a chance of receiving Chuck's personal guidance.  But at minimum, four of the five monthly selections will pass through the nominations and blind screening process I've described.  People who can't wow the nominators can use peer feedback from the workshop to keep getting better and better.  They can submit new stories and even revisions of old stories, month after month.  Meanwhile, we've got to be sure to reward merit and to make the best book we possibly can.

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Ah, I wish I had more time for this. It sounds amazing. I'll have to work on a few pieces late at night after work and read a few pieces here and there.

Sounds dumb, but one of the best things about the old workshop was finding a diamond in the rough. One of the best compliments I can give a story is that after reading it, I'll sit there and think, Man, I wish I would've thought of that. Envy of plot. Envy of character.

Look forward to reading work from a few old faces. Hope to find a few new diamonds.

Thanks for all the hard work pup, and everyone else. See you in the shop.

No, selections for Chuck won't be completely random. Sorry to contradict JKabol...

no worries. kabol doesnt mind being contradicted now and again. he has grit and pride, he is a man of tradition, but he never minds being corrected. it's hard keeping it all in and in order.

just looking forward to when there is mostly reading stories and reviewing stories and writing them, and less of the prep work. currently, the reading is like stereo instructions, and worse than that is the consistent and necessary revision of those stereo instructions. but building a house definitely beats holding up planks of wood

hey, keith !
hey, wook !

nice to see you appear through the ether. i look forward to kicking it on the couch, once we get this house built. eternal thanks to clay kirk and vig, this new workshop is shaping the fiizzuck up. it's gonna trip yaw out !
-kabol

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Thanks for elaborating on everything Kab and Vig!

My question is: if I would to submit a chapter from a book I'm working on, and it would make it to the anthology would I still be able to publish it in my book too?

(Not that it necessarily will, I don’t know if my English will even be understandable less alone “anthology material.” I’m not even sure my non-fiction fiction will be eligible as an entry. I’m asking strictly hypothetically. There… with those three sentences I relieved some of the mental pressure .)

I’m thinking of the one chapter in Fight Club that Chuck published in a magazine before he turned it into a book. Apparently in that case he never “lost control” of his work.

I’m guessing that the novel/chapter is legally under my control until I decide to sign a contract. And such issues can be resolved when the times due.

In other words, I’m not giving up any legal claims by just posting my work on the cult?

/hleJAC

no, no worries.

1st. you almost always keep intellectual property rights. you sell first rights, sure. but you can still do your best to market "2nd rights" and "3rd rights" et cetera.

2nd. a short story and a novel are two entirely different things. if you are trying to sell a novel and you by chance have a chapter of said novel in a book edited and forwarded by chuck palahniuk, you'll have a better chance of getting serious attention paid to the book.

so, overall: no worries. you'll keep your property. more than likely, you wont be able to sell the short story as a short story again, but you can certainly use it in a novel.

Thanks, Vig, for the very detailed response. I expected nothing less coming from you.

And yeah, I am going to focus on submitting my unpublished work, but for the last year I have kept many pieces continuously floating around to literary magazines, so I want to have a plan should something get accepted down the line. I am learning that a story can get sent to one particular magazine, and they do not reply for six months, only to make me think it's safe to cross them off my list. Then the acceptance comes the next day.

But I'll wait to read all the specifics when the new site opens. I just wanted to ease my curiosity a bit early. I have plenty of unpublished stuff that could use some critiques, and I plan on writing some brand new pieces, specifically for these workshops.

Thanks again for the detailed answer. See you very soon.

Keith

Hi, so I have been watching this site for years and only now created an account so i could ask a question...

This past year I have really started getting back into writing. But I mostly write short semi-autobiographical essays. I also just started writing some short fiction. Not even short stories, just scenes I guess you would call them.

Anyway I never joined the writer's workshop before because I thought it was just for aspiring short story/novel writers. But from this announcement it sounds like that's not the case.

I understand that what I write might not qualify for what Chuck is doing, but is it worth it to upgrade and join the workshop? Or would people think that it's strange for me to participate?

I understand that what I write might not qualify for what Chuck is doing, but is it worth it to upgrade and join the workshop? Or would people think that it's strange for me to participate?

Well, I can't answer for everybody, but I wouldn't think it's strange.  It's up to you what you want to get from the workshop.  There's a space for writing in a synopis or an autnor's agenda with each piece you submit.  In that space, you could even specify that you're not aiming a particular submission for anthology consideration.  You can spell out exactly the kind of feedback you'd like to receive. 

As far as form and genre, we're open to just about anything--essays, screenplays, poems.  Hopefully, you'll find others with an interest in any form you're working in, and you'll get feedback that is appropriate in reference to your own stated goals.

We won't be looking at screenplays or poems for the anthology, but you're quite welcome to submit narrative non-fiction and tag it for anthology consideration.  As long as your essays aren't dry and academic sounding, as long as they have a strong narrative component; (i.e., you're telling a story as much as you're conveying ideas) which I'm guessing is the case, since you mention an autobiographical aspect, that work would even be something we'd consider for the anthology.  If you're interested in that, just tag it with agreement to our terms and permission for possible inclusion.  If not, no worries.

And if your ficitonal sketches progress toward a more complete feeling, you might want to submit some of those, as well.

But in any case, it's up to you to specify your goals and make the most of your workshop experience.

And yeah, I am going to focus on submitting my unpublished work, but for the last year I have kept many pieces continuously floating around to literary magazines, so I want to have a plan should something get accepted down the line. I am learning that a story can get sent to one particular magazine, and they do not reply for six months, only to make me think it's safe to cross them off my list. Then the acceptance comes the next day.

Believe me Keith, I understand that our glaciers are melting much faster than traditional publishing makes decisions.  I find it arch and offputting whenever submissions guidelines demand "no simultaneous submissions."  In other words, some lit journal's editors think so highly of themselves and they think it's such an honor for you if you get included between their pages, that you should take your best story off the market while they mull it over for half a year.  I don't have polite words for what I think of that.

An equivalent would be if you asked someone out on a date and she said, "Well, I'm not sure I'm interested right now, and my turnaround time on these decisions is three months, minimum, but if you can wait that long without even glancing at another woman, then maybe we can go out." 

You know, your justifiable reaction would be: "In what royal household did this bitch get her exaggerated self-esteem?  My time is worth just as much as hers and if she isn't sure what she wants, then I should feel free to pursue other opportunities."

I feel the same way about publishing stories.  Especially if you're so given to what you're doing that you need to make some money from it.  That's why I say, Always ignore the words "no simultaneous submissions."   Fan any story you believe in to five different places at a time.  But if you do that, you've got to greenlight the first publication that's good enough to get off its duff with an acceptance letter, even if it isn't the highest paying one.  Then you've also got to be good enough to immediately and politely inform all the others that it's off the market.  If that burns a bridge for you somewhere where they don't want simultaneous submissions, then so be it.  You haven't broken a contract.  You've ignored an unreasonable rule from someone who hasn't yet offered you a contract.  Burn baby, burn.

We aren't going to have a bloody "no simultaneous submissions" clause.  We're going to ask for the courtesy that you immediately inform us if something you have in the running changes status because of acceptance somewhere else.  As the anthology approaches its final form, we'll have to set a locked-in date where we expect priority consideration... where we expect your denial of some other publication that's too late saying Yes.  No backing out when we get close to typesetting and proofing stages.  But such a locked-in date is months and months away.

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kittenboo

honestly, a number of writers have come here over the years to do just that: improve their writing. i started writing here because i wanted to improve my letter-writing ability. seriously, letters to my mom and friends. i didnt come here to master the short story form, or have grandeur beliefs in a future novel exploit. i came here--openly not a writer--simply because i couldnt see paying for school to learn how to write well. the thing is, i am old fashioned. i believe in letters. hand written, or typed. i prefer the personal touch but i am naturally a sloppy scribbler, so writing with a clear pen takes too long to do so often. however, if you can learn to be infective with your writing, well, that meant the world to me as i wanted to learn how to be more effective. more infective. and chuck's first essay on authority opened my eyes to possibilities. you see, letters from grandparents, from sisters, from friends, they all lacked captivation. nice, clean, but nothing gripping. i knew upon reading chuck's first essay, i could become a very effective writer. i can send a letter to my mother and make her cry. using the words i would want to use to help her understand how much i love her, how much i appreciate all of the sacrifices she made for us brat kids growing up, but learning to understand rhetoric, to really make it burrow deep, that's what my goal was when i started here. that, and to attain the ability to write a mean ass essay on the fly if i wanted to. those are things i've learned while here. i've known college grads who can't write clearly letters of intent. just a group of garbled words, mumbling. and i was the same way. no drive to focal points, just blurting it all out. the essays helped, considerably. but i think more came out of reviewing work and having my work reviewed. ive several times not appreciated the feedback i've received, and i've had complaints on my own responses, but that's part of the beauty of feedback: it's generally not personal; it consists of honest thoughts. that is what makes the workshop worth the forty bucks for a full year of practical trial and error.

so i say, Yes. if you are simply here to improve your essay writing ability, Yes. if you are here to improve the effectiveness of words used, Yes. one of big vig's favorite quotes is from mark twain: and i quote: "The difference between the right word and the almost right word . . . is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." using this workshop, and the feedback here, will help you with this quest. as it has helped me. it is only through chance that i have gravitated toward fiction. who knows where you'll go with growth..

think it over
i hope to see you in the workshop
-kabol

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vigorouspuppy and jkabol

Thank you so much for your quick responses! I think I will join. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who isn't starting out trying to be a novel writer.

I did read some of Chuck's essays and they were really helpful, I'll have to go back and read the ones I've missed!

I have joined as a premium member, now how do I access the current workshop? I have reviewed 5 submissions, is the new point system active, or is yet to be rolled out?
Thanks in advance for any help.

I have joined as a premium member, now how do I access the current workshop? I have reviewed 5 submissions, is the new point system active, or is yet to be rolled out?
Thanks in advance for any help.

I realize it takes careful reading, and some of it only comes out clearly in the comments section after Chuck's original announcement-- the news item posted to the main page right below this update-- but the new workshop isn't active until the first of February.  The whole site will look different that first weekend in February.  The Workshop itself will look and feel and operate very differently from how it is right now.  What you're dabbling in right now is the remnants of the semi-functional 2008 model of our workshop which will be completely replaced with the new revamp.  Stories and reviews done right now will be wiped away like chalk from a chalkboard in favor of a much better shop for 2009.

The thing to be doing right now is learning from Chuck's essays and practicing on your own stories in private.  Then, be ready to wrtie new reviews and make your story submissions in February.  Nothing in the shop right now will carry over.  Nothing will even look the same when you click into this site in February.  Sorry about that.  It's been said over and over and over, but it still somehow takes a bit of careful reading to catch it.

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in other words, duanehough, as clearly as it can be made:

welcome to the workshop. now, though, wait ten days before you review or submit any stories.

read the essays, work on your stories. great advice, and really the only thing you can do currently. the workshop is being completely redone. nothing currently in there will remain there. the new workshop is going to go live in february.

oh, and man, welcome to the cult !
-kabol

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Man, this sounds like such a great idea. I have a question about what counts as published work and what is eligible for the anthology. I post a lot of my stories on my blog. I know some lit journals count blogging as self-publishing and won't stories that have already appeared there. Would these pieces still be okay for what you have in mind with the anthology?

sweet. thanks for the info and welcome, i will work on mt material and be ready for february.

snossen,

no, no problem. or at least, i dont see a problem inherent. though if included in the anthology, you should take that particular blog down. just like if you sell a story to a lit journal, you should immediately delete the story if it is upped in the workshop proper. or on a blog.

If you're putting your best imaginative writing on your blog, why not go ahead and pull it down and pretend you didn't do that to yourself?   Then, we'll pretend you didn't say any such thing.  And when you've got a story in consideration for the anthology and we google the title, we won't find it already existing online somewhere.

Also, you should be prepared to put your work through a series of revisions, making it a substantially stronger descendent of anything you've tested out online.

Cool, I can dig that. Thanks for the prompt reply.

Follow up questions:

1.If you submit a story in February and it doesn't make the the 5 selected story cut, can you post it on your blog afterwards?

2. If a story thats submitted in February doesn't end up in the top five, is it possible that it might make the cut later on? Or will you only take five submission each month that have been entered the same month? (if the answer is "yes it's possible old submissions are forwarded months later" then I guess one shouldn't publish the short story on ones blog before 2010 - if one wants to be sure not to ruin any chances)

3. And is it possible to revise the same short story, month after month, developing it with each feedback loop? And would you... I mean is it possible practically that you'd forward an "old" story in April - a story that's been admitted in February and been revised in the feedback loop twice since that?

/hleJAC<

hleJAC,

1) you could, but then what would happen in March?

2) I'm guessing here, based on what we've discussed so far, that each month's 5 submissions will come from that month's submissions. Vig? JKabol?

3) While it is possible to submit and resubmit a story each month, provided you have fulfilled your review requirements, I'm guessing we'd have to see serious improvements to that story somewhere along the way to make it jump up and into the elusive top five. But this is the wrong way to go about it in my humble opinion. kinda like submitting to an agent, then getting rejected, then resubmitting with some "improvements", getting rejected, resubmitting with further "enhancements" getting rejected, etc...

Best advice is to treat this like any other submission process only instead of having to write a query letter, you are submitting your short story directly. With any submission, it is always best to go back and become intimately familiar with what your publisher looks for (in this case Chuck Himself) which has been all but illuminated in neon for us by way of his essays. Reread those essays, apply them to your best works, and submit those each month. If some get really good feedback but still don't make the cut, focus on those. If others just don't go over well for whatever reason(s) then you may need focus attention and effort elsewhere. But no matter what, I wouldn't think it a great idea to spend all of 2009 trying to get one or two pieces in month after month. Apply the essays. Know your audience/publisher. Make full use of the review process. Submit your best work.

Good writing. NO, Great writing always wins.

Kasey has this figured out.  In case I can add just a smidge more clarity or general emphasis, I'll take up each point one by one:

1.If you submit a story in February and it doesn't make the the 5 selected story cut, can you post it on your blog afterwards?

It's your story.  You can do whatever you want with it.  You might, however, like to consider putting it through further paces before declaring it blog fodder.

2. If a story thats submitted in February doesn't end up in the top five, is it possible that it might make the cut later on? Or will you only take five submission[s] each month that have been entered the same month?

We will definitely take five submissions from amongst those submissions that have been entered during that precise calendar month.  Even if it's March 10 before we know what the February Top 5 are, they will all come from February entries.  Likewise, in April, we won't be looking backward to something that almost made the cut in February, and smuggling that in.   If April is a weak month for new submissions, it'll be a month where Chuck looks at things with lots of room for improvement.

3. And is it possible to revise the same short story, month after month, developing it with each feedback loop? And would you... I mean is it possible practically that you'd forward an "old" story in April - a story that's been admitted in February and been revised in the feedback loop twice since that?

Yes, it is possible.  If we do pick up a story first aired in February as an April selection, it will be precisely because in April you submitted a substantial revision of that story.  Again, it may be May 10 before we know with certainty what the April Top 5 list is, and it may be May 15 before Chuck is commenting on them, but all April selections will have time and date stamps that show they entered the Workshop in April.  That goes for brand new work and it goes equally for revisions of earlier stories.

Beyond that, pay attention to what Kasey posted above.  I wouldn't advise that you spend all of 2009 trying again and again to place the same two stories with minor tweaks.  Much better to experiment big and bold and exercise a certain degree of non-attachment regarding the future of any particular story.

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Thanks for the quick (as always) answers Vig and Kasey!

First, as for posting the story on my blog after it has been declined… well it’s a little about exposure in my case. I mean whatever you are working on; it is a little piece of your heart as Chuck puts it in the introduction of Non-Fiction. And once I’ve decided to put a piece of that piece of my heart out on the web for exposure… then it feels like I might go all the way with that procedure and put it up on my blog too.

Not that my blog has any exposure (net-traffic) at all. It’s really more or less inactive. But it feels like putting it up on the blog, takes it out of the specialized group of amateur/semi-professional/professional writers here and makes it google-searchable to a wider extent. For, like, friends and family and the rest of the world wide web.

It simply puts it out there in plain sight.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that I simply feel like, if I’m aiming for feedback through exposure I might as well aim big…

Second, I understand your argument that it’s preferable to bring new fresh work and aim for greatness with each new piece and not being afraid to kill, or at least, let go of your darlings. But that decision has also, in my opinion, a lot to do with the context. What feedback you get on the story, how substantial the revision is going to be, and how important it is for your current workflow to keep writing and re-writing said chapter/story depending on how it relates to the rest of book.

It seems to me that there is a great opportunity given here, in the right context, to submit work and let it change drastically and let it and your writing grow with those changes. With experimenting on one specific story.

But I understand the warning and advise you are giving. I’ll bare that in my mind. And I’ll do my best to focus on big and bold experimenting over clinging on.

I think I see what you're saying about your blog--that you get some positive feeling from that exposure, even if it isn't really extensive or wide exposure, it's wide open to the possiblity that it might be seen by someone outside this circle of writers, someone with a personal interest in what you're doing.  It's just, that motivation is alien to me.  Reservations about damaging your chances of publishing the work in our anthology or elsewhere completely put aside for a moment, I don't understand it on a personal level.  With my own work, I never hand it to my mom or my brother.  I never email it to them and ask for feedback.  My brother is an engineer and doesn't read fiction.  My mom reads mysteries, celebrity biographies, and books like "Marley and Me."  The last thing I want to do is force her to try to say something nice about a story wherein my narrator seems deranged and the literary aesthetic I work in is completely alien to her sensibilities. 

With friends I have who can appreciate the kind of work I do, I still don't show them a first draft.  There's something to be said for keeping your process internalized.  When I've got a story developed to the point I would consider putting it up in this workshop--usually about the 7th draft-- I wil also hand it to a trusted friend I know is a good reader and appreciative of my genre proclivities and creative choices.  Before then, I'd rather nobody see what I'm working on.  Personal preference, I suppose.  But I feel that a raw, new story deserves protection and a certain gestation period away from prying eyes.

Past these personal considerations, you might really weigh the net effect of posting unpublished material to a blog.  I feel our workshop is a safer place for it, and doesn't really count as "published," since the general public can't view these stories.  A person has to upgrade to premium membership (i.e., they're motivated to workshop their own stories here) before they can read yours.  That affords a degree of protection within a community of trust.

In contrast, on your blog, besides your aunt Nelly, there is any person in the world who might happen to stumble upon it.  That  could include an editor who's considering publishing your story, but runs a google search to make sure it isn't already posted to the Web.  That general sort of access is why it counts as self-publishing.

To my mind, a blog is a better place for short non-fiction entries, whether you're keeping a sort of diary in public, or doing a family newsletter, or doing something more like citizen journalism aimed at a broader audience.  On a blog you can write reviews of books and movies and other short opinion pieces all day long.  It also might be a great place to feature a brief excerpt of your fiction to stir interest.  And a great place to announce that you have a story coming out in such-and-such literary publication.  Hell, even a great place to feature one short story, in full, after you're more established. 

Maybe you'll even preserve electronic rights to reproduce something on your blog that's been featured elsewhere in print.  But I simply feel it's an inferior format for laying your imaginative writing open to the world in full and as fast as it leaves your fingers.  Everyone reading knows that fiction published to a blog hasn't been vetted, it hasn't passed the taste test of anyone anywhere except the author.

So I'd recommend weighing out the benefits of gestation periods for your stories, extensive re-writes, and selective vetting--over the impulse to self-publish at the earliest opportunity.  It works much better to have an established agent or editor proclaiming your work, and then a growing army of fans proclaiming your work, rather than the electronic form of lone shouting.

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Hey Vig,

Many thanks for your elaborate and personal response. It’s really helps to hear how others work and what they think about the process of writing.

I’ll definitely rethink the whole idea of publishing the chapter on the blog. However, one of the good things (though it may be brutally naïve) about anybody having access to a certain piece is that it can help you get other stuff published (if it catches the attention of the right person).

I also agree that non-fiction suits a blog much better. I personally never visit any blogs for “story reading.”

Anyway, thanks for the extensive feedback.

/hleJAC<

However, one of the good things (though it may be brutally naïve) about anybody having access to a certain piece is that it can help you get other stuff published (if it catches the attention of the right person).

A good thought there.  And it's certainly possible.  Although, consider this:  agents and editors--the people who can do the most to help you get your work published, are more acutely aware than anyone else in the reading world that what you've placed on your blog is unvetted.  And despite their prestigious and powerful jobs in the world of letters, they are generally lame when it comes to the ability to look past such biases and see the value of the work in the raw.  It would look better to them emerging from a sealed envelope in the slushpile and handed up by an intern than it's going to look splashed on the internet, self-published to your blog. 

Furthermore, a sample of your published work wll inspire them much more readily to ask for additional samples if you haven't published that work yourself.  Chris Baer had a book agent contact him... that's how he got the agent he still has... after that agent read a short that Chris got published in a fairly prestigious lit journal.  Agents and editors read those things and generally know each other and trust each others opinions.  The context your work appears within means everything for achieving such recognition and having them possibly even court you.  They're too human and generally too lazy of mind to act without strong recommendation.

When you get a short piece placed in this anthology, or somewhere else that carries similar prestige, you just might have the Chris Baer experience of an agent actually contacting you, instead of the other way around.  When that day comes, you'll be asked if you have a novel in the works.  (I'm guessing that's a definitive Yes for hleJAC, since he's talking about sample chapters.)  But if you're reading this and you've always and only written short stories, the answer is still Yes.  Yes, by gawd, of course I have a novel in the works.  But it's still very rough.  I can get three sample chapters to you within the next five weeks.

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The exception, of course, is a handful of blogs that have generated huge online followings and actually landed book deals for those bloggers.  But every last one of these deals has been for a non-fiction book generated out of the blog's primary theme, some of the posts repurposed and expanded into complete chapters.  The blog as rough draft space and research tool has worked, but so far only for non-fiction.

Fiction, in contrast, is still acquired in a very old-fashioned way.

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Thank you for the thoughts on posting in a blog. Most of what I think of as my good stuff is all in my online journal, but at the same time it is all autobiographical or semi-autobiographical.

I never thought that could be considered self publishing.

I guess I will go through it and take down stuff I might want to use here. I certainly do not have a huge online following, just some friends and some family. It's just how I keep in touch with everyone.

Just wanted to convey my excitement for this!!! I can't wait.

hleJAC,

Vig hit it all, but in re: blogs - publishing your stuff on a blog is like putting your music up for free download on myspace versus getting it approved for d/l via iTunes... with the huge exception that when you "publish" via a blog, your blog, any blog, you have already broken the seal. At least musicians can pull their songs down and revert all traffic to iTunes - publishers aren't that forgiving about material that has seen eyeballs, be they only Aunt Bess or thirty thousand viewers.

Keep the blog for stuff you aren't married to, stuff you don't have a lot of time/hope/future invested in. by virtue of being published on a blog, this can rule your piece out in a lot of venues, i hate to say. unless you are writing http://www.stuffwhitepeoplelike.com in which case Random House will beg you to take a check for 300k for a print catalog of your young blog's entries... a blog that was started exactly 12 months a go and has since garnered 53 MILLION hits. Yeah. Yeah.

So I would keep your prize possessions close to the virtual vest, and if they don't stick here, then go for it out there "in the wild." Post them here, because not only will you get more eyeballs than the average blog, but you will actually get constructive criticism (I promise.)

I just recently joined this site and i'm wondering if its all just a big popularity contest? If I dont smile enough, or blog my bff's, am I even going to be considered for publication, or is the book just going to be filled with familiar faces?

 

I just recently joined this site and i'm wondering if its all just a big popularity contest? If I dont smile enough, or blog my bff's, am I even going to be considered for publication, or is the book just going to be filled with familiar faces?

The book is going to be filled with the best writing we receive.  Period.  But that writing won't happen in a egomaniacal vacuum.
Rather, it is going to be shaped through a process of peer review and then editorial revisions.  We expect all participants to demonstrate manners, civility, and generosity.  If you can't write a review for a fellow writer's story that demonstrates these qualities, a review of 200-500 words that is very focused, but not eviscerating, then you need to learn to do so.  Also, if you can't take criticism of your own work, or coaching from the moderators on your personal manners and approach to things, then you're going to be creating barriers for yourself.  Not a rush to exclude you or disqualify your story over a personal matter, but there will be a limit to what we tolerate.  So lose the chip from your shoulder.  Everybody here is a fucking writer and every writer in the world is an expert at feeling like an outsider.  Get over your attittude or go somewhere else.  I've earned the right to be authoritative here though knowledge and hard work and service, not from a frigging popularity contest.

Kasey,

Haha, I work extra at a bookstore so I'm familiar with the stuffwhitepeoplelike-phenomena...

However, with the risk of making a few (or a lot of) enemies since the cult seems to be a conservative (when it comes to publishing) writing lounge, I'm big believer in music artist who distribute their music in new ways. Like on Myspace or their own web page. And I don't like Itunes or their (now; previous) DRM-business model at all.

Still, distributing music is very different from publishing books.

I understand the difficulties of marketing your fiction-writing with tools like blogs. But as Vig pointed out: when it comes to non-fiction such tools can prove more handy.

Anyway, in a very competitive book world (with all of it's politics and restrictions), I don't think any alternatives to traditional publishing should be ruled out. I mean re-watching the Chuck documentary where he comments on the death of transgressional fiction since 9/11 - I think its clear than in the face of such "censorship"/obstacles self-publishing on your blog is an alternative that should be seriously considered.

Again, I agree that you should contemplate it carefully before proceeding, but I don't see publishing on a blog as an absolute mistake. Neither do I consider it similar to throwing your work in the thrash.

Not at all.