The Green Chet Rant connection *Spoilers*

You had to do it didn't you? Start another Rant thread and open back up the rotton pit in my brain that is associated with figuring out WTF it's all about. Well good. I missed the headaches. The only thing is that I can't seem to follow some of your questions. Maybe break them down a little, as I'd love to compare ideas. Examples, perhaps. Sorry if I seem simple minded, I'm not. I just have a delicate balance of Rant theories and reading too many more at once makes me forget what I believed in the first place. I need some logic behing questions. For instance, how could Green be Waxman? And would exactly does an anti-Green mean? And oh yeah, 100 posts bitches!!!

Good Point. I'll start again. Forget the Green/Waxman thing I'll save it for another day. Here is my concept. I heard some people on this forum throwing around the idea that Rant/Chet/Green are the same. I submit an idea that Rant/Chet are one lineage of time travelers, and Green is another. My reasoning for this is because Green is the "Historian" an asshole who gets his kicks off watching mortals do stupid things. When I said that rant is the anti-green I met that Rant gives everyone rabies so that they block out the peaks. Following Rant's death Chet presumably shows others how to time travel. So Rant/Chet want others to become timeless, and to understand lineal time travel, while Green wants to remain on his high horse alone.

I know that sounds confusing I mean reading it back to myself 5 minutes after writing it is weird, but I hope someone can help me figure this all out.

if I get the time I'm going to make some graphs and charts and family trees and all sorts of visual aids to figure this out.

[QUOTE=nathaniel parker;981879]if I get the time I'm going to make some graphs and charts and family trees and all sorts of visual aids to figure this out.[/QUOTE]
^-- Awesome...

On to other things...
I read it and felt that Green had gone back and created Chet. Then Chet went back and created Rant. Maybe, I read it wrong. For some reason I always felt that Chet and Rant were the same (i.e. the arms), but I felt that Rant was the son of Chet/Rant and Green because Green is who rapes Irene (right?).

Maybe I am very confused. Maybe I am wrong.

It is confusing. I thought that Green and Chet were two seperate time traveling people, each with there own lineage and line of succesion, it just seemed like green was content and happy holding others down and keeping everything as it was, while chet wanted others to expierence time travel.

Green was the one who raped Irene ( I think) but I believe that Rant went back in time and was able to stop the Rape, hence he never existed.

I guess the real argument is the time travel, and the idea of the fork off of linear time. It's like different dimensions exist seperate from eachother, maybe the book is written to encompass a variety of dimensions, and all of us are right. Hopefully this actually is part of some sort of trilogy. I read choke a week ago and had closure, I understood what the hell was going on, but now I have no idea what is going on in my life, I can't eat or sleep and I'm chronicly losing weight.

It seemed clear to me that Green/Chester/Rant were all just different versions of each other:

Green tells Rant that they are each other doesn't he? During that part that he tries getting Rant to go into the past to kill "their parents" so that they can become gods.

Also, Green goes back to screw his ancestors and says that if he lives long enough he will eventually watch himself be born. The "himself" he was talking about was Chester.

Chuck even talks about the Green/Chester/Rant trinity.

I guess I've just never had any doubt the 3 were connected.

[QUOTE=nathaniel parker;981879]if I get the time I'm going to make some graphs and charts and family trees and all sorts of visual aids to figure this out.[/QUOTE]

I've considered this many times, it strikes me as being one surefire way to explain to others what the hell you're talking about.

Clone, I was with you up until I considered what Owl has proposed. And the thought of Rant going back and actually succeeding in stopping his mother from being raped opens up a whole new can of worms.

ShSUGuy, you are not confused, you're on the right path, but you've only scratched the surface.

Ok... ok...

So the CITY GUY that tells Rant "I'm your father" when his grandmother dies has got to be GREEN (if I read it right).

When Rant goes back he DOES NOT stop the rape. We read the rape as it happens. Remember Irene's but breaks the ice and the cold water underneath is splashing around. So Rant fails there.

I always figured that Green went back in time to rape Irene. Irene birth's Rant. Rant goes back in time and fails to stop the rape. So he chooses to stick around and "father" himself. He convinces himself to go back in time to stop the rape. And yet again he fails.

Wow. Talk about convoluted.

Someone stated this in a thread already about these three characters, but it was way too long ago to go searching... So if you dont mind a lil' butchery, with apologies to the person who'd posted it:

"Green is the evil 'Rant' that wants immortality
Chester is the good 'Rant' that wants to save his mom
Rant is the young and rebellious 'Rant' that just wants a change"

[QUOTE=SHSUGuy1985;983082]Ok... ok...

So the CITY GUY that tells Rant "I'm your father" when his grandmother dies has got to be GREEN (if I read it right).

When Rant goes back he DOES NOT stop the rape. We read the rape as it happens. Remember Irene's but breaks the ice and the cold water underneath is splashing around. So Rant fails there.

I always figured that Green went back in time to rape Irene. Irene birth's Rant. Rant goes back in time and fails to stop the rape. So he chooses to stick around and "father" himself. He convinces himself to go back in time to stop the rape. And yet again he fails.

Wow. Talk about convoluted.[/QUOTE]

Did I miss something? I'm with you up until "and yet again he fails". We know that Chester failed and stuck around to raise Rant. Then Rant says he has to save his mother and conducts his chase/fiery crash ending, leading us to assume that he successfully went back. No one says that he failed. Maybe he succeeded. Right?

[QUOTE=chubbz;983093]
"Green is the evil 'Rant' that wants immortality
Chester is the good 'Rant' that wants to save his mom
Rant is the young and rebellious 'Rant' that just wants a change"[/QUOTE]

Sounds good...

As far as failing...
I felt that Rant failed because we (as the audience) read the Irene's rape scene. I didn't think that was a flashback at the end of the novel. However, my fiancee and is chewing me out for not reading close enough. She says that scene is a description of Rant's conception. So I probably got it all wrong.

[QUOTE=SHSUGuy1985;983140]Sounds good...

As far as failing...
I felt that Rant failed because we (as the audience) read the Irene's rape scene. I didn't think that was a flashback at the end of the novel. However, my fiancee and is chewing me out for not reading close enough. She says that scene is a description of Rant's conception. So I probably got it all wrong.[/QUOTE]

That is very much a description of Rants conception. But tell your fiancee to lighten up. No matter how close you pay attention, there are things in this book that are not explained. I just don't think that this is one of them. That was Rants conception, and he went back at the end to prevent it. Whether or not he succeeded, we're never told outright, but I think Chuck left us clues to the answer.

Rant failed, and Rant is Chet and marries his mother to stick around and raise the next Rant, who he hopes won't fail, it's a loop. This is illustrated through a whole slew of points in the novel.
The uncomfortable wedding scene, the telling of the future, chet coming to town after rant crashes, the placement of the rape scene etc...

[QUOTE=shadypete;983198]Rant failed, and Rant is Chet and marries his mother to stick around and raise the next Rant, who he hopes won't fail, it's a loop. This is illustrated through a whole slew of points in the novel.
The uncomfortable wedding scene, the telling of the future, chet coming to town after rant crashes, the placement of the rape scene etc...[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that you're wrong, because you might be right, but I don't see how any of these things point to Rant failing. I understand your loop theory but you're saying that there's no changing it? Then why do they keep trying to go back? What do you mean by the placement of the rape scene? How does Chet coming to town mean that Rant failed?

I'm going to add another problem to the equation.

In chapter 22 - A History, there's a character that Jarrel Moore (Private Investigator) claim to be the only candidate to be Rant's biological father. His name, Charles Casey aka Charlie.

This same Charlie was one of the traffic-flow engineer for the city. And this same Casey had disappeared after bashing, head-on, into a female co-worker. Echo Lawerence's Mom.

Now, this could very well be Green Taylor Simms.
Follow me through this...
After traveling back in time he rapes his great-granmy and all that stuff to give birth to Chester Casey.
Chester Casey grows up, goes through his 'Rant' phase. And finally goes back in time.
In doing so he comes too late to stop Green from raping his mother, and from that Rant is born.
Now it's Rant's turn to go back in time... Only we dont know if he's succesful enough...

So think about that for a second. Charlie Casey. Green Taylor Simms. Chester Casey. Buster 'Rant' Casey.

Or maybe Charlie is Green Taylor Simm's dad. The ORIGINAL Casey... I don't know anymore this is just insane.

:poke:

[QUOTE=chubbz;983495].

This same Charlie was one of the traffic-flow engineer for the city. And this same Casey had disappeared after bashing, head-on, into a female co-worker. Echo Lawerence's Mom.

:poke:[/QUOTE]

I don't remember this. I remember Charlie being brought up, but that he had no connection to Rant yet did work for the goverment. I always assumed this was thrown if just to add a little more confusion.

And thanks for including the Chapter number for quick rerference, something all of us who are dedicated to unraveling this mystery should be doing.

Hey everybody,
Rant is this month's bookclub selection. I would encourage all of you to participate.
[URL=http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=29005]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=29005[/URL]

[QUOTE=bigshrimpn;983513]I don't remember this. I remember Charlie being brought up, but that he had no connection to Rant yet did work for the goverment. I always assumed this was thrown if just to add a little more confusion.[/QUOTE]

Found it. Makes sense now. So Simms is a fake name? Still don't understand how Simms/Charlie knew about all of the old paint cans filled with gold, among other things. Anyone?

[QUOTE=bigshrimpn;983540]Still don't understand how Simms/Charlie knew about all of the old paint cans filled with gold, among other things. Anyone?[/QUOTE]

He put them there

yeah, i kinda figured. But I wonder where he came up with a billion dollars worth of coins that pre-dated even the time he went back to. And why he hid them in other peoples garages and all that.

Maybe they were cheap at the time and he knew they'd be worth something, so that's why he chose all the coins he did.

That's it. Some other points of interest: {page 285} "The day Rant disappeared into the river and the day Chet washed up, both days December 21"

This is supposedly the date of doomsday, 2012. The end of the Mayan calender. The end of the world. Coincidence?

Also, the left over percocet in Rant's apt. from his one trip to the dentist, at the dentist he says that he was referred by Karl Waxman. This means at some point Rant and Waxman must have communicated. Right?

I hadn't noticed that connection with the Mayan Calendar, but it sounds like more than a coincedence. Definetly something to think on.

I vaguely remeber someone saying that Rant and Waxman disliked each other... i think. So that, and the dentist incedent, would definetly make it seem that Rant and Karl had contact with each other. But what does that have to do with anything?

I read the book the day after it came out, so i don't really remember it clearly... I'll have to re-read it.
I hadn't been at all confused about the book after i read it, but now i'm kind of puzzled.

[QUOTE=bigshrimpn;983540]Still don't understand how Simms/Charlie knew about all of the old paint cans filled with gold, among other things. Anyone?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]He put them there[/QUOTE]

True --

"Echo Lawrence: With every sperm that met an egg, Simms claims he felt stronger. He was hoarding more gold, making a fortune, and stashing it for his future self." (Page 259)

After re-reading this book a THIRD time, I think I get everything now...

i stated this in an other thread but i am gonna say it again.
i think green taylor simms was one of the "engineers" that started the stundy that led to partycrash. and he is one of the first to time travel. wanting to become a god he went back and became his own father, eliminating his original dad and making himself stronger. there was a part when green taylor simms wanted rant to kill his mother (to complete his god transformance) but rant tried to prevent the rape from happening (thinking that preventing the rape could be an alternative to having to kill his mother and father to become a god). but i could be wrong, i only read it once.

The main way I look at it is this way.

There is mention of the Trinity involving Green/Chet/Rant. With that in mind.

Green would be the Holy Ghost or the originator (creating Chet/Rant)
Chet would be the father-obvious reasons, hangs around to raise rant. Also, he guides Rant toward his destiny.
Rant is the son. Rant is the one who starts a following and spreads the gospel (of sorts).

Green is the one who went back and knocked up Irene. Chet went back to try and stop the rape (couldn't, that's how he became Chet, to look after Irene) and Rant, at this point, just went back...there is still mention of him, people still remember him so he hasn't stopped or changed anything yet. The way I look at it is if Rant had stopped it, there would be no mention of him, kinda how Waxman just disappears after he goes back and kills his parent.

ok so i understand all of the green goes back and fathers himself stuff and how chet is rant who went back to try and stop green from raping irene and all that stuff but what i don't get (and don't even know if its important) is where green came from in the first place? WAS irene his mother? was that where he originally came from and if so who was his father? or was he his own father because he changed the past and made that so? this book does my HEAD IN! but in a good way of course. also, mildly confused about the "bride" in the car/train accident who survived without a scratch on her and said that she was some crazy age (can't remember what and don't have the book to hand) - did she come from the past? or from the future? argh!

[QUOTE=MistressSadako;1007257]ok so i understand all of the green goes back and fathers himself stuff and how chet is rant who went back to try and stop green from raping irene and all that stuff but what i don't get (and don't even know if its important) is where green came from in the first place? WAS irene his mother? was that where he originally came from and if so who was his father? or was he his own father because he changed the past and made that so? this book does my HEAD IN! but in a good way of course. also, mildly confused about the "bride" in the car/train accident who survived without a scratch on her and said that she was some crazy age (can't remember what and don't have the book to hand) - did she come from the past? or from the future? argh![/QUOTE]

i know the bride is a time traveler and may be in that god-like state, thats why waxman said he wants to do what the bride did. i think green's mom is irene and that he knocked off his original father by becoming his own father and grandfather and great grandfather. he never completed god-like state because he never killed his mother before he was born. green told rant to go back in time to kill his mother, i think rant thought if he could prevent his mother from being raped by green then he wouldn't have to kill his mother and still prevent himself from being conceived.

That Chet(rant) and Green(weird alternate rant) have gone missing by the end of the book. I think they are off to do somthing terrible (green) and stop that somthing (chet). I mean as far as we can tell, Irene is not dead, and Chet and Echo are not all lovely. Echo talks to green, who is all ears and then evidently vanishes. So I say they are off to stop each other and do some crazy shit, basically we only have a piece of the story.

Lastly, What the hell happend to Echo, we hear less and less in the end, then (unless I'm blind, she has no entry in the Contributers section.

First off, it needs to be noted that, as it says in the book, time is a circle, a loop, so its hard to begin anywhere really, but alas, heres my attempt:

[the numbers in the brackets next to the names are the characters ages at the various times in the story]

“Rant” casey is born

“Rant” grows up and moves to the city and later changes his name to ”Charles casey” [age 18]

“charles” crashes his car into echo’s family’s car killing echo’s parents and sending himself back in time [echo 8, “charles” 23]

“charles” goes back in time to middleton, where he grew up and did all the things we read about in the book, except now he’s way in the past, back to when his great grandmother hattie is alive

“charles” impregnates his great grandmother and his grandma, esther, is born [hattie 13, “charles” 23]

his grandma esther turns 13, “charles” finds her and impregnates her, she gives birth to his mother, Irene [esther 13, “charles” 36 (23+13=36)]

Irene turns 13, “charles” shows up and impregnates her [Irene 13, “charles” 49 (36+13=49)]

Just after intercourse, “rant” comes to irenes aid but he’s too late, this form of “rant” decides to stay and raise the baby with irene: he changes his name to “chester” and hopes to prevent this event the next time it is supposed to happen (time = a circle, remember) [so we have irene, 13, “charles” who impregnated Irene is 49, and the ”rant” that comes to her aid and changes his name to “chester” is about 23 – they only say in the novel that he showed up and he was “a bit older than Irene” something along those lines and 23 is the same age that “charles” came back]

“charles” [49] goes back to the city, changes his name to “green taylor simms” and creates party crashing while Irene [13] and “chester” [23] raise “rant”

So now, in middleton, “rant” casey is growing up, collecting teeth, exposing children to live cow organs and contracting rabies

--the man who said he was “rant’s” real dad was “charles/green” [a bit older than 49], he also killed all his relatives in an attempt to make himself immortal--

“Rant” grows up and moves to the city (remember, his dad, “chester”, tells him there are no secrets: this is because he already did everything as “rant”) [“rant” 18, “chester” 37]

“rant” accidentally gets into a car with echo, shot and “green” [“rant” 18, echo 21, shot 21, “green” 67 49+18=67]

“rant” does everything that we read in the book and eventually drives off a ramp, into the water [“rant” 23]

“rant” goes back in time, wakes up in the hospital (just as “green” had done) and goes back to middleton but “rant” doesn’t go as far back as “green” had gone because the older relatives are dead, so “rant” shows up when his mother is 13 and is about to be raped by “green” but, like I said before, he’s too late: so he decides to stay with Irene, he changes his name to “chester” and helps raise another “rant” [Irene 13, “rant” 23, “green “ 49]

So with the older relatives being dead, “rant” will always come back to this point and arrive just after “green” has left Irene and he will always become “chester” and then another “rant” will always be born, move to the city and then try and come back and save his mom, Irene – “chester” will always know what “rant” is going to do because “chester” always was “rant” and “rant” will always become “chester”

and then the circle continues

and I do think “green” is the same as “charles.” “charles” is the one who started the time travel and therefore started the “loop” that “rant” and “chester” and Irene get caught up in, he himself is free of that “loop” because he is the creator or “historian” and there will never be another “charles” – “charles” becomes “green” and stays “green”: “rant”, “chester” and “charles/green” are the same person, just split by time

also, the easter eggs:

echo’s egg says: “I will come back to life in three days”: this is “rant” telling echo that “chester” was coming to town

shot’s egg says: “green taylor simms”: this proves that “rant” knew what was to happen

“green’s” egg says: “fuck you”: further proof that “rant” knew what “green” was planning

how did “rant” know what “green” was up to? maybe he read the same “field notes” that we are reading the book.

I think that’s a pretty good run-down of events within this mind numbing novel by mr palahniuk

**AND, as for the echo age question: is it ever stated clearly that the lawrence car hit "charles'" car? they could have been seperate accidents - remember all those traffic engineers kept disappearing so "charles" could have been one of them and had an accident completely seperate from the lawrence accident ** also, the fact that echo lawrence is not mentioned in the "contributors" section has to mean something**

so there it is, if anyone has anything to add or revise, please do

This is my version of what happened

this is all based that the current time period is 2007

1947 Bel(great-great-grandmother - 13) was raped [p238]

1961 Hattie(13) and Green/Chalres(23) sleeps with her

1969 Green/Charles is born (not sure how but this is the year based on my math)

1974 Esther(13) Green/Charles sleeps with her

1988 Irene(13) raped by Green/Chalres and Rant(18) appears minutes to late and decieds to raise himself and changes his name to Chester

1991 Echo(8) car crash by Green/Chalres(23) and he gets sent back in time

2007 Echo(23) Rant(18)

Here is how I came up with the year Charles was born
detective stated Charles smashed into Echos car 15 years from present date[p174-175]
it was stated that Green had gone back in time at the age 23 [p255]
by this information Green/Chalres HAD to be born 38 years from present date

Considering Green is an old man he is not immortal but we do not know how old he is considering he had to ga back in time multiple times, first one being when he slept with Hattie, and he had to go back again at some point to sleep wih Bel.

I feel that Rant and Chester are the same person but Green/Chalres was their creator. Green was a normal peron till one day he got in a car reck and went back in time and slept with his great grandma by accedent and then feeling that power he became corrupt. His end result was Rant who turned out to be a good person and went back to try and stop himself from being born

There are still questions that remain:

Considering a girl cant get pregnet before the age thirteen how the heck was Chales/Green born before his grandma

Is it possible that Rant and Green share some of the same feelings and Green cannot kill his mother and so he wants Rant to do it for him becasue there are thirteen years that green could have killed her before Chester was her bodyguard

Also what are your thoughts on page -3 (yes negative)
"Do you ever wish you'd never been born"

Green Taylor Sims is Charles Casey and he DID crash head on into Echo's Mother's Car, I forget actually which one initiated the crash or maybe they both did, both trying to time travel but only Green/Charles succeeded.

WhereEaglesDare is basically spot on with everything though... at least almost if he missed one slight mistake which is possible because this is quite the cycle...

The only thing I wonder about is why doesn't Green Taylor Sims just kill his mother Irene by himself??? I mean Waxman did it... why couldn't he??

edit* - Just read Will's post above mine, thats a good point with Green and Rant having the same feelings toward their mothers, that could explain why he needed someone else to go through with it...

Here's another question... Who is Charles/Green's Father!!!?? Or maybe it doesn't matter because he killed him? (I don't know if he did kill him, im just voicing the possibility). Killed him to get 'stronger'? Because Chester is obviously not the real father, He is just another Rant who slowly evolved just like Buster/Rant did.

My theory is that Green is not immortal. If he was immortal he would not care about rant he would just go and kill people with cars like Waxman.

Also the reason Waxman is not at the end of the book is because he killed his parents and everyone forgot about him like Tina said they would

My theory for why Echo is not in the end is because she is in love with Rant and went back in time to find her Rant (the one being 18).

also in chapter one about him escaping from the insame asylum that is Rant escaping not Green. Geen escaped from a hospital and snatched clothes not a hospital gown.

So far there are few things that Rant/Chester and Green/Charles have in common
They both had rabies and bites across their arms
Other than that if have found no similarities in personality or past experiences

hey I just finished the book and one thing I never caught was the whole escaping from the insane asylum thing. Why was Chet/Rant locked up in there in the first place?