Sirens of Titan: May Bookclub Pick

Howdy.
I'm not too far yet b/c I just finished Rant. But I have a great quote:
"Rumfoord had known that Constant would try to debase the picture by using it in commerce. Constant's father had done a similar thing when he found he could not buy Leonardo's 'Mona Lisa' at any price. The old man had punished Mona Lisa by haveing her used in an advertising campaign for suppositories. It was the free-enterprise way of handling beauty that threatened to get the upper hand."
pg. 56 in my version.

[QUOTE=tomstrong83;970730]Howdy.
I'm not too far yet b/c I just finished Rant. But I have a great quote:
"Rumfoord had known that Constant would try to debase the picture by using it in commerce. Constant's father had done a similar thing when he found he could not buy Leonardo's 'Mona Lisa' at any price. The old man had punished Mona Lisa by haveing her used in an advertising campaign for suppositories. It was the free-enterprise way of handling beauty that threatened to get the upper hand."
pg. 56 in my version.[/QUOTE]

Good quote. And I'm pretty sure I've seen that done before, with the Mona Lisa, and other paintings too.

So, who's read it? Anyone? Am I going to have to resort to antagonization?

I didn't have a clue if this was the book selection or if it was Raw Shark Text. At any rate, i'll be starting on this book this evening and catch up to what was mentioned here.

Cool deal.

Good choice! One of my all-time favorites.

I promise to finish it tomorrow.

[QUOTE=UbikRex;971353]I didn't have a clue if this was the book selection or if it was Raw Shark Text. At any rate, i'll be starting on this book this evening and catch up to what was mentioned here.[/QUOTE]

We are doing Raw Shark Text in July.

[QUOTE=chimney scott;970705] Throughout the book Vonnegut shows contempt for the phrase "Somebody up there likes you", however, he uses it as the last phrase in the book. Can we take this to be a final mockery of it all, or a hint that Vonnegut is unsure of the existence of a higher being, or what? When I first read the last sentence, I was a bit confused as to why Vonnegut chose to end it that way; just for the sake of ending it? What do you think?
It seemed weird to me that Rumfoord, the only person in the book who claimed to be able to see all time- was the one who was actually creating all these incidences in the first place; such as Beatrice and Malachi's trip into space, the war with Mars, and the Church of God Utterly Indifferent. Do you think he is a God figure?
Salo, although he is a machine, has very human characteristics. Do you think this is Vonneguts way of saying that no matter the vastness of a particular idea or thing, that what really matters is the humanity we show to one another?
-Chimney[/QUOTE]

Just finished it today. About 2/3 through I started thinking I'd read this before. Anybody ever do that?

in regards to "somebody up there...": I think the phrase has become somehwat of a joke by the end. Pardon me for busting out a total Men in Black movie scenario, but it seems entirely plausible that if earth is all about delivering Salo his part, then Salo's whole thing might be about something just as trivial. So maybe there's something up there, above that, and above that again.

in regards to Rumfoord as a god figure: judging by the way he ends up being manipulated, I would say that Rumfoord is no god. Or, if you will, he is a god in the sort of tiered god system set up in the book. maybe we could say that he was manipulated, so he wasn't GOD! but he was god enough.

in regards to Salo: humanity is a very important theme in the book. Take Malachi: his entire goal seems to be bringing people together. His family, his best friend, everything. And he is happiest in the end when he and Beatrice finally love each other. also, his reasoning for being dropped in Indianapolis, that it was the first place a white man was hanged for killing an indian, is a sort of humanity, albeit a little warped.

Something I found a little confusing was how the Martian War caused the sort of peace on earth. The way that the earthlings came to accept the martians was a little confusing to me, the way Rumfoord convinced people that the Martians and Earthlings were all doing the right thing, in their own way. Thoughts?

Eurgh. How many people voted for this book? And you're not even discussing it?

Has anyone read the short story by Vonnegut titled "Harrison Bergeron"?
The idea of physical handicaps is expanded in that story.
In [I]Sirens of Titan,[/I] for those who haven't read it, people on earth join a new religion where followers try to make themselves physically equal. Strong people wear metal plates to negate their strength. A dude with really good vision wears glasses not meant for him. Beautiful people uglify themselves or wear unflattering clothing.
If you had to put on a handicap, what would it be?
Mine would have to be a large metal plate that flattened the curve of my ass. Because I got me a sweet ass.

I haven't got much going for me. I think I have pretty eyes but most people think they have pretty eyes.

Im going to do my best to get a copy tomorrow in the city then read it as quick as possible.

[QUOTE=tomstrong83;973646]Has anyone read the short story by Vonnegut titled "Harrison Bergeron"?
The idea of physical handicaps is expanded in that story.
In [I]Sirens of Titan,[/I] for those who haven't read it, people on earth join a new religion where followers try to make themselves physically equal. Strong people wear metal plates to negate their strength. A dude with really good vision wears glasses not meant for him. Beautiful people uglify themselves or wear unflattering clothing.
If you had to put on a handicap, what would it be?
Mine would have to be a large metal plate that flattened the curve of my ass. Because I got me a sweet ass.[/QUOTE]

I haven't read this story.. but if I had a handicap, I think I'd want it to be a missing finger, or eye. Or hand! With the finger I could tickle the palms of those I shake hands with, and if I lost a hand I would replace it with a silver hook to freak out just about everybody.

Back to Sirens of Titan, however. With what you were saying further up, I thought it was odd how there was any peace on earth at all- the very idea seems warped. But I thought it was funny how they all fell back into the same trap. With different philosophies. It was weird that Rumfoord was taken so well, all of his theories were accepted so suddenly. I think though, that the huge peaceful earth crowd served as a contrast to what Malachi and Beatrice and their son were going through, which was isolation. Which is what I found as the main themes of the book. Salo, Malachi, and even Rumfoord all experienced isolation while everything around them seemed to band together (the dwellers on Mercury- forgot their names, the earthlings, the machines of salo's planet). This is perhaps the way we all view ourselves, as very alone with very little help in a very large place.

And Barca boy, as soon as you're done chime in. I'm surprised that so many people voted for this and only a couple are discussing it so far.

[QUOTE=corellion;973654]I haven't got much going for me. I think I have pretty eyes but most people think they have pretty eyes.[/QUOTE]

That's a tough one. You'd have to get a scar around your eyes, maybe one where a thread of flesh scarred over one eye. I had this teacher who had a huge...sort of red bubble right on the edge of his eye. That would do nicely.
Unless you're talking eye color. Then I guess you could just wear contacts or something.

Sorry - I've actually found time in my life to get to reading for fun again. I'm reading this book as we speak. I'm about half way through it. I WILL post about this one.

and P.S. - I didn't vote in this poll for the simple fact that it's not fair to vote and then not have the time to participate.

I just have the last chapter to read on this. I have to say - this book surprised the hell out of me. Not like surprised at the ending or anything (which I think is very clever) but I just really like it. I will post more after I finish it.

On a side note - 6 days until June. In June we are reading Rant. Who wants to be the discussion leader on that one?

[QUOTE=PGoutis01;976504]I just have the last chapter to read on this. I have to say - this book surprised the hell out of me. Not like surprised at the ending or anything (which I think is very clever) but I just really like it. I will post more after I finish it.[/QUOTE]

I liked it to. Whenever I start a Vonnegut book I think I'm not going to like it that much. But he always turns it around on me. Why is that?
Maybe it seems like he's being a little too clever at first or something(?)

His cleverness thing can get a bit on the annoying side at times, especially with Timequake, which I didn't like that much. But Sirens of Titan became my favorite after I read it, possibly because it had a lot more of the science fiction element in it, and Vonnegut focused more on the characters and story line than he has in his other books, and did well with it.

[QUOTE=chimney scott;976648] Sirens of Titan became my favorite after I read it[/QUOTE]

Same here. I finished it last night and, while depressed about the nature of events, was inspired.

[QUOTE=aiyoku;976788]Same here. I finished it last night and, while depressed about the nature of events, was inspired.[/QUOTE]

How were you inspired by it? Discuss!

Considering Vonnegut was a humanist your first post statement that "what really matters is the humanity we show to one another" is dead on. Though later in life he said he thought humans should immediately stop procreating because humans are a disease upon the earth, which is true, at the time he wrote the book I think he was trying to show that people put more effort into following what they think some great being wants them to that they wreak havoc. Conversely, Rumfoord thinks until the end he is doing exactly the opposite of what humanity has been trying to do, but has been the pawn of a much larger scheme (as had humanity as a whole). The message I think he was trying to get accross is that humans are so dense and ignorant as to what existance is like outside of Earth, or even the purpose of life, that they try too hard to figure it out and destroy goodness while doing so. It's out of our control and we have to be happy with that. His 'purpose of life' though is wonder fully humanistic in that it is to simply love another in life...despite the fact that no one "up there" likes you.

Talking about this book makes me happy. Especially because it is largely my theory of things and I am told by so many to believe this or that. It was nice finding someone who agrees.

Why did you like it so much?

I really liked how the cosmic sphere intertwined with the human condition, in this one. With Malachi's travels, and the journey of Salo, and such, the enormity of space, and what we do not know, was really brought out. But Vonnegut argued that the real enormity exists in the human spirit, or whatever it is, and yeah I really like that. The message about love, too, as a sort of armor for what can happen when we are lost in a seeming abyss. It covered, I think, a much broader spectrum than most of his other books, which is probably why I was so impressed with it. He definitley tackled a big question, and said, it seemed to me, that the question really wasn't what mattered anyway.

I can't find my copy now. I've read it a couple of times, it's probably my favorite of Vonnnegut's (maybe tied for first with Cat's Cradle).

One of the things I remember thinking it was about was 'deserve' not having anything to do with life. The way the guy gets rich, picking stocks with the Bible as a random three-letter stock ticker generator. The way he loses it all, too.

And the chronosynclastic infindibulum, the place where two opposites can both be true, that's a big deal to Vonnegut's whole output. He's all about moral relativism and the denial of absolutes.

[QUOTE=Chixulub;977082]And the chronosynclastic infindibulum, the place where two opposites can both be true, that's a big deal to Vonnegut's whole output. He's all about moral relativism and the denial of absolutes.[/QUOTE]
I like what you said about moral relativism. My favorite part of the book is that Unk goes through the entire thing with the hope of seeing his buddy again, but that's not going to happen.
It's weird because what Unk did was wrong, but not really in the context. A soldier killing a soldier.
On the other hand, it was his best friend who didn't really deserve to die and was only trying to help Unk out.
It was almost like he was right to kill him but also right to hate himself for it.
It's interesting how the book goes from a micro to a macro level and seems to keep everything together, now that I think about it. Unk killing Stony was the most memorable and significant part of the book for me, but then you find out that the entirety of existence as we know it was based on getting Salo his part. So that event is not even the tiniest blip on the radar, even though it's a scene of someone unwittingly killing his best friend.

Well, Vonnegut is very much a moral relativist, but he's also intellectually honest. He wrestles a lot with the horror of the atomic bomb, the firebombing of Dresden (in his most 'taught' book) and so on, but never forgets the Holocaust, the violent expansionism and whacko theocracy of Imperial Japan, and so on.

Which is why he's such a quintesentially 20th Century American author: in his absurd and hilarious stories, he's probing the wounds, trying to figure out how to relate to the world. What's more morally relativistic than justifying the use of nuclear weapons because it 'saved lives' (the argument that a full invasion of Japan would have meant more deaths, and more specifically, more American soldier deaths). Or the firebombing of civilians in Dresden to cripple the warmaking capacity of Hitler?

And with Unk, too, there's a 'forgive him for he knows not' kind of thing.

All of which is made the more poignant by the fact, for instance, that the Sirens are statues. We strive and struggle and go to the ends of the earth (or the solar system, take your pick) and it's for nothing. We're merely the playthings of chance, pawns of the powerful.

[QUOTE=chimney scott;970705]
Throughout the book Vonnegut shows contempt for the phrase "Somebody up there likes you", however, he uses it as the last phrase in the book. Can we take this to be a final mockery of it all, or a hint that Vonnegut is unsure of the existence of a higher being, or what? When I first read the last sentence, I was a bit confused as to why Vonnegut chose to end it that way; just for the sake of ending it? What do you think?[/QUOTE]
Well, if you look back its all an illusion made by salo. Where he tells Malachi Constant that a wonderful thing will happen to him and then explains the happy things that will happen.

I think it was more along the lines that he chooses to disbelieve in them yet finds the idea peaceful and happy. I saw it as a formation of what he wanted to do mechanically all along(Malachi) to bring his family together and his best friend and find a place to make a paradise for themselves. And having the story end with that particular phrase is his little cosmic joke.

But the interesting thing about that last part is that, yes he wouldn't recognize stony, but I also felt like he didn't know beatrice either when stony brought up her name. He had this sense of absolute confusion.

I was just curious about that. Was Vonnegut throwing something else out there with that?

[QUOTE=chimney scott]The Church of God Utterly Indifferent was interesting to me in that in fact, nothing cared about anyone, and still- millions of people followed it like mindless sheep. However, it was filled with the same tendency to superstition and the promise of happiness that every other religion is. It was also interesting that their symbol was one of hatred toward their own prophet.
It seemed weird to me that Rumfoord, the only person in the book who claimed to be able to see all time- was the one who was actually creating all these incidences in the first place; such as Beatrice and Malachi's trip into space, the war with Mars, and the Church of God Utterly Indifferent. Do you think he is a God figure?[/QUOTE]

I never see him as a god, because he is flawed. He still holds human charateristics and emotions like anger, pain, sorrow, humor. He exhibits them towards salo. But the events he formed were his way of fixing humanity into something better since the truth of human history and why everything is, is just so meaningless since it is all for a part to a ship so a being can carry off and say hello to someone. All of those things were going to happen, i just saw him as wanting to do something beneficial with it.

[QUOTE=chimney scott]The character of Salo was also interesting to me because he was a very humble character, as well as a machine, however, he was responsible, according to the novel, for everything that had ever happened on Earth; all existence, simply because he was sending a small message of greetings to another planet very far away, and got stranded mid-trip. In the end, he even does something that is supposed to be impossible for a machine- he breaks protocol. Salo, although he is a machine, has very human characteristics. Do you think this is Vonneguts way of saying that no matter the vastness of a particular idea or thing, that what really matters is the humanity we show to one another?[/QUOTE]

I loved salo. It was such an interesting character in the end of the book. How it went about pondering queries of humanity and of Rumford. The idea of friendship being the first he had ever encountered across the cosmos and how that alone is what sets him to break protocol. That part is a very powerful moment in the book. Because you see it right afterwards, he is no longer a Tralfamadorian anymore he is human and he has a soul. He exhibits sorrow, remorse, loss, bitterness. He finally decides to carrying on with his task of sending the letter which he regarded with pointlessness in doing so.

I think you are right in saying that the message of the book is to be helping and friendly to those around you. A humanitarian.

[QUOTE=tomstrong83;972463]
Something I found a little confusing was how the Martian War caused the sort of peace on earth. The way that the earthlings came to accept the martians was a little confusing to me, the way Rumfoord convinced people that the Martians and Earthlings were all doing the right thing, in their own way. Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Well, i think it was the savagery involved in killing the martians. It had united the rest of earth and formed a bond in which to come together and fight back, but it also held them all responsible afterwards when they begin to realize that the war is a joke and yet they continue to lust for blood. Especially in the later waves where it was just old men, women and children. He unites everyone with the feeling of shame of what happens and they all have endure the penance of what they've done. Everyone had a hand in it.

I love this passage in the book when he is describing the event of the war. pg. 171
[I]
In thirty-two days, four hours, and fourteen minutes, the Martian Armada flew into a radar-directed thermonuclear barrage. The official estimate of the number ofr Thermo-nuclear anti-aircraft rockets fired at the martian armada is 2,542,670. The actual amount of rockets fired is of little interest when one can express the power of that with poetry and truth. The barrage turned the skies of Earth from heavenly blue to a hellish burnt orange. The skies remained burnt orange for a year and a half.
[/I]

I don't know about you guys but the thoughts in envisioned were pretty amazing with thinking of that many things flying into the air and then seeing gigantic smoking sticks turn into little specs of fireworks and then following that with a sky that was blue turning slowly orange, a orange that doesn't disappear right away. It leaves a mark in everyone involved that this is what they did to themselves.

[QUOTE=aiyoku;976795]Talking about this book makes me happy. Especially because it is largely my theory of things and I am told by so many to believe this or that. It was nice finding someone who agrees.

Why did you like it so much?[/QUOTE]

I enjoy the humor and wit that Vonnegut goes about tackling this book. Writing a book about the meaning of existence and then providing an answer in the simplist way. More than that it is the isolated relationships you catch in Unk/Malachi, Boaz, Beatrice, Chrono, Rumford and Salo. There is this ugliness in each of them when they are introduced yet as it carries on you begin to see a transformation in each that is beautiful, good and sad. The book has be hooked forever right where Unk reads the letter to himself yet doesn't know its himself and then finds the strength to do what he doesn't think possible because of the signature at the end of the letter. Big Fat child like letters that just read UNK. Its a powerful spot in the book and the one that fills you with how you are going to feel for the rest of the book when you watch malachi continue to press on and subsconsciously not want to be told of the truth because it would shatter the hope of what he has for continuing on. I felt incredibly sad when he makes the march to the rocket ship and then says he has a friend and that was a good thing he had done and then Rumfoord tells him he strangled his best friend to death on mars. That part in the book hurt me in how he just turns and continues upward on the rings of the ladder. I love the character Malachi the transformation involved the vain, filthy pig he was and the blank slate he turns into and then the man he becomes. Its very sad and happy he creates himself a soul and earns himself a love he never knew was capable. Its what makes this book so great and worth rereading everytime.

I kind of like this little bit near the end when Salo is explaining the creator of the message to Rumfoord (pg. 274) It has this explaination of what god is like

[I]The message itself was unknown to Salo. It had been prepared by what Salo described to Rumfoord as, "A kind of university--only nobody goes to it. There aren't any buildings, isn't any faculty. Everybody's in it and nobody's in it. It's like a cloud that everybody has given a little puff of mist to, and then the cloud does all the heavy thinking for everybody. I don't mean there's [B]really[/B] a cloud. I just mean it's something [B]like[/B] that. If you don't understand what i'm talking about, Skip, there's no sense in trying to explain it to you. All I can say is, there aren't any meetings."[/I]

i'll come back later and look at this again, i'm still pretty tired from last night so i'm hitting this rather weird in my mind. You guys definitely know your stuff cause I saw those same things but lacked the larger words in describing them.

[qUOTE=tomstrong83;972463]Just finished it today. About 2/3 through I started thinking I'd read this before. Anybody ever do that?[/QUOTE]
When I was reading this - I was thinking the same thing. And then I started thinking that it was too similar to Slaughterhouse 5. But by the end - it was an original work all of its own.

I think the "Somebody up there" is there as if Malachi is talking about God - but by the end it takes to mean the alian race that is manipulating everything.

I think Vonnegut definitely leans to the atheistic, but he's intellectually honest enough not to ebrace it with the kind of fervent faith some do. I think he'd say if there is a God, God is not paying attention, that the horrors of the 20th Century cast doubt on God's wisdom, etc.

I don't think it's suprising that he'd close with the ironic 'Somebody up there likes you' business. He closes Cat's Cradle thumbing his nose at God.

[QUOTE=Chixulub;978654]I think Vonnegut definitely leans to the atheistic, but he's intellectually honest enough not to ebrace it with the kind of fervent faith some do. I think he'd say if there is a God, God is not paying attention, that the horrors of the 20th Century cast doubt on God's wisdom, etc.

I don't think it's suprising that he'd close with the ironic 'Somebody up there likes you' business. He closes Cat's Cradle thumbing his nose at God.[/QUOTE]

Actually I think in A Man Without a Country he says he doesn't believe in God/that one exists. Most of his large life opinions of things are expressed in that book, very very blatantly which leaves little room for guessing or thought provoking like we've done on this thread. That book is amazing and made me laugh out loud many times. Anyone and everyone should read it. It's the closest he ever came to a memoir.

I've read it and agree, it is very funny.

[QUOTE=chimney scott;973774]Back to Sirens of Titan, however. With what you were saying further up, I thought it was odd how there was any peace on earth at all- the very idea seems warped. But I thought it was funny how they all fell back into the same trap. With different philosophies. It was weird that Rumfoord was taken so well, all of his theories were accepted so suddenly.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it was that odd. I mean - in the Bible people followed what other people who did far less than what Rumfoord did.

Think about it. A person keeps materializing but never speaks (simple magic trick). And then one day he speaks. He tells people the future. But it's something crazy that can't be a guess or coincidence. That is real.

Religions were started with less.

There are fortune tellers, tarot cards, and even people who just look at patterns to tell the future and they also happen to be right on occassion. I find it hard to believe that almost everyone on the planet suddenly abandoned old views of the same calibur and replaced them with these new ones without struggle.

Yeah but the new person was so much more extraordinary than the others - don't you think?

Then again - he had become a norm because the fact that he was doing that for years and years by that point. That would be like Criss Angel all of a sudden trying to start a religion I guess. lol.

I really really need somebody to volunteer to be the discussion leader for Rant...

Is there any takers? Come on!

I've only read eight pages of Rant, in the bookstore. Sorry. When I've read it, maybe.

You can come up with stuff as you read it?

I thought people would be fighting to lead this discussion...

Well, I left the bookstore empty handed. I'm broke. So that first couple mini-chapters is all I've read.