Nov. '04 Discussion: Good Omens by Pratchett and Gaiman

I haven't read good omens so I can't assist with that part of your question and yes I think religion as a genre works. The only book I can recently remember that was like this was "The Screwtape letters" by CS Lewis. Yes he is pro-god/christianity but it doesn't take away from the book and its story. It is written as a collection of letters between a head demon and his understudy on how to tempt humanity into sin. It is brilliant. If you have some sort of religious background it helps with the references but you'll still get the point if you don't. I hope these are the kind of books you were talking about if not i apologize for the long useless post.

my book is on order. I will get back to you sometimes next week! huzzah
I've read 'Illusions' by Richard Bach. It is about a messiah who quits being the savior of humanity and instead gets a job as a crop duster. I enjoyed it because it asked the question that: if jesus was fully human, did he have the choice to refuse to die? It was an interesting read, as opposed to a theological investigation. I think religion is the most influential source in writing and our daily life. Even if we call ourselves atheists or dont practice religion, all of western society was founded on Christianity so it is impossible to avoid. I have rarely seen a book that doesn't deal with a good/evil contrast in some form or another. this is my first book club post. dont make me feel dumb, please

Sorry for jumping the gun here.
When is this discussion supposed to start? I thought the November book club discussion started in November...

When I did mine, I posted a schedule. It's up to you, but give us all enough time to buy and read the book.

Mine was posted for the 25th of October. The 25th seems as good as any day to me.

I read Good Omens about a year ago, i thought it was a very good book. Pratchett has written several Discworld novels that deal with religion, and i always like what he has to say, this book was no exception, and with the talent of Neil Gaiman in there as well i very much enjoyed the book. I don't think it was necessarily mindblowing or anything, but it wasn't meant to be mindblowing. It was entertaining, funny, and well thought out.
I want to address the other two points that you mentioned laz, but i'm not going to right now, mainly because i suck, plus i want to see better more well read people give their input.

[QUOTE=Proton]I think religion is the most influential source in writing and our daily life. Even if we call ourselves atheists or dont practice religion, all of western society was founded on Christianity so it is impossible to avoid. I have rarely seen a book that doesn't deal with a good/evil contrast in some form or another.[/quote]

As per your request, I am certainly not trying to “make [you] feel dumb” but I gotta make a comment.
Oddly enough, “good and evil” were not originated with christianity (and neither were “morals”, which is now ever so popular to be synonymous with “fundamentalist christian thinking”…but that’s a whole other topic.).

Myths, stories, philosophies, ideas, beliefs and truths that *greatly* pre-date the myths, stories, philosophies, ideas and beliefs that are in the bible (some of which are outright stolen or further embellished upon, others, of course, created out of thin air) deal with such subject matters.
Even the Fables that are attributed to Aesop are said to be dated around the time of 620 B.C.E.

Although I agree with you that it is, sadly, “impossible to avoid”.

j(ay)

I've only read about 25% of the book so far. I am enjoying it, but for me it's not a book that I can't wait to pick up again to see what happens next. I think it may be the comedic aspect of the book that does not work for me. I think comedy if one of the more difficult forms of fiction to write. "Permanent Midnight" by Jerry Stahl had me laughing out loud (though it's technically not fiction).

I loved Gaiman's "Neverwhere" -- the only book of his I have read; I have not read any Prachett prior to this.

I will finish the book eventually. The storyline is interesting. I like fictionalized history, including religious history. Mailer's "The Gospel According to the Son" was good. Dan Brown's bestsellers are not well-written, but they are entertaining, and I think in large part that is due the religious aspect of his stories.

All in all, a good choice for my first Cult Book Club reading. Who knows, it may become one of my favorites once I finish it. My opinion so far is only based on a quarter of the book.

[QUOTE=jay]As per your request, I am certainly not trying to “make [you] feel dumb” but I gotta make a comment.
Oddly enough, “good and evil” were not originated with christianity (and neither were “morals”, which is now ever so popular to be synonymous with “fundamentalist christian thinking”…but that’s a whole other topic.).

Myths, stories, philosophies, ideas, beliefs and truths that *greatly* pre-date the myths, stories, philosophies, ideas and beliefs that are in the bible (some of which are outright stolen or further embellished upon, others, of course, created out of thin air) deal with such subject matters.
Even the Fables that are attributed to Aesop are said to be dated around the time of 620 B.C.E.

Although I agree with you that it is, sadly, “impossible to avoid”.

j(ay)[/QUOTE]

I never said that good/evil were originated by Christianity, I just said that our society, and therefore our literature, are heavily influenced by Christian morals. NonWestern literature is great beacuse it is, for the most part, 'different' than what comes out of the west. I remember in a writing class our teacher mentioned that there are 12 different stories in the world, and everything ever written can be categorized (sorry I dont have more of this). For example noah's flood, revelations, ragnarok, the apocalyse - are all one category. The idea of good/bad as two opposites was first brought up by Zoroastarianism I believe, which was a Persian religion, and played a heavy influence on Christian thought. Ive taken many classes on the history of religion, check out [URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300090889/qid%3D1101333238/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-7383127-3233512]Norman Cohn's[/URL] book if you want to see how similar religions of middle eastern origin are. (judaism, christianity, egyptain, persian, canninte, hindu) He deals with apocalyptic myths (appropriate for this book discussion) and goes over each religion seperatly.

Ill look more into those 'categories' in the mean time. what does everyone else think about that? Have you read a book you couldnt place in a certain typeset?

[QUOTE=Proton]I never said that good/evil were originated by Christianity, I just said that our society, and therefore our literature, are heavily influenced by Christian morals.[/quote]

ok, sorry. But if you do re-read the sentences I quoted from you (post 7) you can see how it comes across that way. [this is why my posts tend to be ‘long winded’; I try to make myself clear…I hope.]

[QUOTE=Proton]I remember in a writing class our teacher mentioned that there are 12 different stories in the world, and everything ever written can be categorized [/quote]

There are various takes on that. And I think it can actually be whittled down much further than that, it’s really only 3 or 4…although I totally forget the (pretty) useless categories. “Stranger comes to town”, “Quest”…I dunno.
Maybe after an espresso it’ll come to me.

[QUOTE=Proton]For example noah's flood,[/quote]

That would be Gilgamesh’s flood (estimates as far back to dating it at 3000 B.C.E), then it turned into the much more popular and cute Noah’s flood…for example.

But I’m totally not trying to be confrontational, gawd knows ‘talking’ religion get turn into an ugly mess…I just, at times, try to clarify some things; we’ve got some young ‘uns among us, you know?

Cheers,
j(ay)

I, by no means, am trying to be confrontational either. It's just the internet. There should be a set standard of font sizes and colours to denote emotion, tone, etc.

I would be very interested in reading more about the 3/4 categories, if they come to you, please do tell.

[QUOTE=Lazlosdead]°What did you think of Good Omens as a book first off?

°How does this book compare to other religious satire youve read? Tell me about other examples if you can. (Another great example is Letters From the Earth by Mark Twain).

°Religion is one of the easiest examples of the ´good vs evil´ debate. The final battle and the question of free will are usually covered in these books. What do you think of these themes in contrast to other literature youve read?[/QUOTE]
I have been meaning to read some Pratchett for a while, so this book was a perfect recommendation for me.

The whole time I was reading Good Omens I kept thinking about all the similarities with the characters in the book and the characters in Dogma. I thought Kevin Smith was a little more original than that, but apparently not. I liked the book way better than the movie Dogma.

I really read this book a lot faster than I thought I would, just for the simple fact that once I started it I really didn't put it down. I always wanted to know what was going to happen next. I found a lot of cool "running themes" in the book, but I don't have my copy with me right now so I can't give examples (and I've read two other books since this one - so it's a little foggy to me already).

The only other religious satire that I have read is Letters from the Earth. I didn't like the majority of Letters. I thought that it was boring and most of the entries in it were a little mundane. The parts of the book I liked though, I really liked a lot. I thought that the letters where Satan (I think) was making fun of us and the way we view religion were hilarious. I reread those because most of them were so true.

I enjoyed Good Omens way more than I enjoyed Mark Twain's book. Mark Twain's book seemed like it was basically just a few thoughts and ideas that were meant to be expanded on in a later time (which I think they were if I remember right). Good Omens was way more thought out and fleshed out. The story and the characters and all the events were perfectly woven together. It had just the right amount of comedy to not make it over the top and stupid.

I really don't know how to answer the last question. I think I am missing something, or it just doesn't matter to me.

I think I am going to post more when I can get my hands on my book again.

I liked the book. I've always been a fan of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books and really enjoyed a little bit of a different story from him. Neil Gaimen's talents thrown in helped to make it a really good book. If anyone has ever read any of the discworld books you'll notice that they way Terry Pratchett likes to give his out look on life, and various other things, is very unique. Even though the whole book seemed to be about the religion topic he has hit on it several times in his discworld books.

As far as the religion as fiction thing goes, I would say I personally enjoy it but cant take reading it alot. The Kingdom of The Wicked by Anthony Burgess was a really good example of this, unfortunately I couldnt make it all the way through the book because it was written alot like the bible. As far as classic God vs Evil goes I loved The Stand by Stephen King. Dante's the Inferno is also one of my favorite books. I personally dont belive in God but am always open to what people have to say. My motto on it is if I dont know anything about it then I cant argue against it.

I agree that while I was reading the book I tend to want to compare it to Dogma. Either way it was an awesome book and as always Terry Pratchett didnt let me down.

[QUOTE=PGoutis01]I thought Kevin Smith was a little more original than that, but apparently not.[/quote]

Pardon me for again jumping in on a thread where I have no intention/desire to read the book (doooooon’t worry, I wont make any ‘guesses’ as to the plot!) but this comment is a bit unfair to Kevin Smith.

At no point as he said, “yes, I nicked the idea from that book”. As far as I know he’s never mentioned it or said he’s even read it.

And in actuality, both novel and screenplay were written around the same time. Smith had “Dogma” written pre-“Clerks”. But obviously that’s not a flick that could be made on/around $27’000 (or whatever the figure was).
One can also note that at the end of “Clerks” it states (something like): ‘Jay and Silent Bob will return next in “Dogma”.
But “Dogma” was still put on hold, winding up being 3 films later (5 if you want to count any “producing” credits).

The guy seems to be one of the few sincere people in that biz, so I have to doubt he would steal or leave something unaccredited, especially if his source-material was a bloody Best Seller.

If more “religion as fiction” (and never have a seen a better example of redundancy) is desired, Donald E. Westlake’s _Humans_ is good, but, low and behold: out of print. Lazlo, if you’re collecting this kind of stuff, I believe I have a spare (paperback) copy I could send you…

j(ay)
(Proton, I spaced out and forgot to think about the ‘plot elements’, I’ll tap my head in a Winnie-the-Pooh manner and try to come up with it, but as I never found it to be important it probably just got tossed in the mind’s ‘trash can’…so I’ll email an English professor friend in the US…

Ah. I did forget to mention that _Good Omens_ was *almost* turned into a film (2 years ago, or so), but Terry Gilliam couldn’t get the funding. So he abandoned it, lest he run into another ‘Quixote’ fiasco.

j(ay)

I have just finished reading Good Omens and I thought it was really interesting. I found it to be a book that I never wanted to put down because I too wanted to know what was next. I loved the characters but I thought the conclusion was a little lame.

I also noticed the running themes and enjoyed that part. In general I would say that it was a good book but not an amazing one.

Since this thread also mentioned other works of Religion as fiction I would like to mention how much I loved Lamb by Christopher Moore. I thought it was way more interesting and funny and would recommend it over Good Omens to anyone that was interested in the genre.

I must now go to class but overall good choice.

I just read this thread because I love Good Omens, but all I really have to add is that I'm glad this Jay person isn't still around.

He was, it seems, a bigger ass than even me.

you might be an ass, but you are not pompous.

Not for a lack of trying, toots.