July Book Club Book - Raw Shark Text

Im going to reread it as soon as possible, PGoutis you are a star!

Edit:

First question for Steven Hall, on the cover of the European edition how much of an influence was the work of Salvador Dali? Thats what first drew me to the book as soon as I saw it on the shelf, amazing cover!

That's awesome. I just ordered that book last Monday, it arrived Wednesday, and I had finished it by Thursday. I'm excited to at least follow along in the discussion, I seriously doubt I'll have much to say.

I'm so excited for this discussion. Thanks for agreeing to be a part of this one, Steven!

. .

it was almost like urban legend but new--voices in the corridors of the cult echoed that this would in fact be the case, but it's so incredible when it actually occurs, when you see the possibility materialize. unfortunately, aside from a previous resolution to finally get this book, especially after reading the first chapter a few months ago online, i still have not and dont yet know if i'll be able to drop the cashews for the novel before july is over with. we are currently buying a house and have narrowed our margins by putting away every scrap for the down payment, and, a day after that decision came, right then, blam, four new tires were a necessary purchase tuesday to the tune of $320. after that, every little thing hurts, even a book that runs no more than 18 bucks (?) via amazon. we're even eating cheaply and have resolved to not go out until we are comfortably in the new home--one with a yard for the puppies and no landlords to raise our rent on a whim. the point is, though i am usually all guns for this type of opportunity, i wont be much involved as the discussions will likely spoil my first initial read and that cant happen. i will be on this thread, viewing and studying after my first read, no doubt. great GREAT news !

what an opportunity..
-kabol

..

I've been looking forward to this indeed.

For those wondering, there's an interview here at 3:AM, [url]http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/bach-to-reality-steven-hall/[/url]

I've been a Raw Shark fan for a while now, since the book came under discussion over on the MZD forums a few weeks before its US release. Since then I've collected four different editions (US, UK special, Canadian, as well as a super-rare white covered ARC) and saw him read in New York a month or two ago.

This should be real cool.

[QUOTE=JKabol;993026]. .

it was almost like urban legend but new--voices in the corridors of the cult echoed that this would in fact be the case, but it's so incredible when it actually occurs, when you see the possibility materialize. unfortunately, aside from a previous resolution to finally get this book, especially after reading the first chapter a few months ago online, i still have not and dont yet know if i'll be able to drop the cashews for the novel before july is over with. we are currently buying a house and have narrowed our margins by putting away every scrap for the down payment, and, a day after that decision came, right then, blam, four new tires were a necessary purchase tuesday to the tune of $320. after that, every little thing hurts, even a book that runs no more than 18 bucks (?) via amazon. we're even eating cheaply and have resolved to not go out until we are comfortably in the new home--one with a yard for the puppies and no landlords to raise our rent on a whim. the point is, though i am usually all guns for this type of opportunity, i wont be much involved as the discussions will likely spoil my first initial read and that cant happen. i will be on this thread, viewing and studying after my first read, no doubt. great GREAT news !

what an opportunity..
-kabol

..[/QUOTE]

do you want me to send you mine?

p.s. Pete's the MAN!!

[QUOTE=JKabol;993026]. .
it was almost like urban legend but new--voices in the corridors of the cult echoed that this would in fact be the case, but it's so incredible when it actually occurs, when you see the possibility materialize. unfortunately, aside from a previous resolution to finally get this book, especially after reading the first chapter a few months ago online, i still have not and dont yet know if i'll be able to drop the cashews for the novel before july is over with. we are currently buying a house and have narrowed our margins by putting away every scrap for the down payment, and, a day after that decision came, right then, blam, four new tires were a necessary purchase tuesday to the tune of $320. after that, every little thing hurts, even a book that runs no more than 18 bucks (?) via amazon. we're even eating cheaply and have resolved to not go out until we are comfortably in the new home--one with a yard for the puppies and no landlords to raise our rent on a whim. the point is, though i am usually all guns for this type of opportunity, i wont be much involved as the discussions will likely spoil my first initial read and that cant happen. i will be on this thread, viewing and studying after my first read, no doubt. great GREAT news !
what an opportunity..
-kabol
..[/QUOTE]
Jesus man, there's a place called the library. But if you PM your address I'll buy and send a copy. Consider it a house warming present or something. And I expect an invite when you're set up.

And yeah, good show Pete, though I miss your cowbell.

That's great news.
Good work Pg

heard somewhere this book is going to be adapted into a film.

[QUOTE=bearchaser;993333]heard somewhere this book is going to be adapted into a film.[/QUOTE]

We should start a petition to get Nightrious to star.

[QUOTE=moe.ron;993236]do you want me to send you mine?[/QUOTE]damn. my post did read a little sappy. and i wasnt even drinking last night. sorry about that. i would take your copy on a borrow, but ej's right.. called the library of central arkansas. they have a copy that i can get. i dont know how to crack my head open enough to squeeze information like the library can be a useful tool, use it. it's just that, every other book ive tried to get, from the connected system that is all over arkansas, they dont have a copy. except the last time, when i sought out The Postman Always Rings Twice, they had one copy at one branch, and when i went to get it, i found it on the shelf and opened the book to irritation: some assmouse ripped out the first ten pages.

ho-hum. ill be getting it after all. thanks doc. and thanks anyway, moedotron.
kabol

you nerd...i figured you already tried the library!!

anyway, my offer wasn't a cowtow to your sappy ass post, i just didn't want you to have an excuse to bow out of the discussion.

you're locked in now!!

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde;993316]Jesus man, there's a place called the library. But if you PM your address I'll buy and send a copy. Consider it a house warming present or something. And I expect an invite when you're set up.

And yeah, good show Pete, though I miss your cowbell.[/QUOTE]
you sweet boy.

I may pick this up this week and actually be a part of the book club discussion!

what will "karbunkle's antisocial book club-a-rama" do this month then??

This book rocks! Okay, okay... I've got a question for Steven. Two, actually. Can I do that?

1.) What are your insights on the revision process? What was it like with this book? Any tips?

2.) What are impressions of the publishing aspect of writing? Is it what you expected? Can you write full-time now? What's that like?

** Any advice for a struggling novelist will be greatly appreciated. I'm in this for the long haul. **

Through my tenure as a reader, there've been a select few books that have made me outwardly emotional: I cried while reading Jonathan Safran Foer's [I]Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close[/I] I laughed so hard I cried while reading [I]Naked [/I]by David Sedaris and only two books in the history of time have scared me enough to actually have to put it down and only read during the daylight hours. The first was [I]The Exorcist[/I] by William Peter Blatty - probably because I was only about 10 years old when I was reading it, and because it was based on true facts. Also, I was a practising Catholic at the time and the Devil was a scary dude.

Anyway, more to the point, RST scared the shit out of me! I couldn't read The 2nd Eric's first encounter with the Ludovician straight through - I probably got up about a dozen times to investigate a weird noise. And the trip to the Infirmary where he first meets Scout reminded me of that freaky MTV show where the sent the kids through a supposedly haunted mental institution with nightvision cameras... And I find the sea to be a creepy place in general. Just the idea that there's a whole other world down there, with creatures we'll never see because we don't have equipment capable of diving that deep, makes me a little uneasy just typing this.

So thank you, Steven Hall, for redefining my "boogie man". What was once a homicidal maniac is now a shark that's confused by letters. That's going to be rough to explain to people...

Excellent. *rubs hand together in anticipation* So when's this getting started?

now! let's discuss!! what'd you think of the book, marsjams?

[QUOTE=moe.ron;995580] And the trip to the Infirmary where he first meets Scout reminded me of that freaky MTV show where the sent the kids through a supposedly haunted mental institution with nightvision cameras... QUOTE]

I was remembering that same show. How bizarre...
It was a good book. I know what you mean about the book connecting with emotions, that irrational sort of primal fear.

It's weird that there is a blue cover and a red cover that came out at pretty much the same time. DOes anybody know anything about that?

[QUOTE=moe.ron;995766]now! let's discuss!! what'd you think of the book, marsjams?[/QUOTE]

I found it intriguing. I really enjoyed the play with words, language, and communication (the signifier becoming the signified, for example). It's been a few months since I read it though, so I'll have to dive back in to it when we start getting into specifics.

There is a prologue, called The Aquarium Fragment that everyone will probably be interested in. Find it [URL=http://www.rawshark.ca/]Here[/URL]. I would reccomend
not reading it until after you've finished the book, but it would be interesting to hear how it influences your view of the story if it's the first thing you read too.

More specifically, when is Seven joining the discussion?

For the record, it is The Raw Shark Texts. Plural. Also, as many have pointed out, notice the similarity between itself and the Rorsach Test, they're practically homonyms.

[QUOTE=marsjams13;995902]I found it intriguing. I really enjoyed the play with words, language, and communication (the signifier becoming the signified, for example). It's been a few months since I read it though, so I'll have to dive back in to it when we start getting into specifics.

There is a prologue, called The Aquarium Fragment that everyone will probably be interested in. Find it [URL=http://www.rawshark.ca/]Here[/URL]. I would reccomend
not reading it until after you've finished the book, but it would be interesting to hear how it influences your view of the story if it's the first thing you read too.

More specifically, when is Seven joining the discussion?[/QUOTE]
i think he's a little shy or somethin', so i'm thinking we should get the conversation started without him and let him dive in when he's ready.

Thanks for the link, i'll have to check that out!

[QUOTE=corellion;995925]For the record, it is The Raw Shark Texts. Plural. Also, as many have pointed out, notice the similarity between itself and the Rorsach Test, they're practically homonyms.[/QUOTE]
and many of the pages could serve as a rorschach inkblot test.

i was thinking there's some other homonym-esqe in the book, like Mycroft Ward (Microsoft Word)... what else?

[QUOTE=moe.ron;995963]and many of the pages could serve as a rorschach inkblot test.

i was thinking there's some other homonym-esqe in the book, like Mycroft Ward (Microsoft Word)... what else?[/QUOTE]

Hm. I guess the whole clone-copy thing could be about social memes and the sort, our jungian connections through language and pop-culture manifesting somewhat through the internet. But mainly I'd like Steven to come and ask us some questions. As with any book, there are far too many different ways to get into this, and it'd be nice to hear the author's input. If you're out there, Steven? Please?

Hey folks, I’m here.

Sorry for the slowness - I’m finally home after more or less 3 months on the road and I had a few things to catch up on before I could dive in here.

Okay, I’ll answer the questions that have already been asked of me in this thread and then I’ll put down a few of my own for people to think about while they read Raw Shark. If there’s anything specific anyone wants to ask, please feel free. I’ll try to spend as much time as I can around these parts in the next few weeks & will do my best to keep up to date.

Okay, as for the questions which have already come my way:

Barca Boy:

Q) First question for Steven Hall, on the cover of the European edition how much of an influence was the work of Salvador Dali? Thats what first drew me to the book as soon as I saw it on the shelf, amazing cover!

A) Well, I didn’t design the UK cover so I guess I can’t really comment! I hadn’t even thought of Dali in relation to that cover, but now you mention it…

I have actually designed a Raw Shark cover though. If anyone can tell me how to post pictures I’ll put it up here. It began life as the slipcase cover for the limited edition book, but is now also the cover of the Finnish book, and I think maybe the Hungarian too. I’m running a quiet campaign to get it onto the US paperback, but we’ll see how that goes.

Misterwoe:
1) What are your insights on the revision process? What was it like with this book? Any tips?

A) I do so much rewriting. I wrote Raw Shark more-or-less in order and drafted, redrafted and redrafted again each chapter before I started on the next one. I also did maybe four complete revisions once the whole thing was done, and a lot of partial revisions as I went along. An art teacher once told me that you should be using your pencil and your eraser for similar amounts of time on a drawing, I think the same is true with a book.

2.) What are impressions of the publishing aspect of writing? Is it what you expected? Can you write full-time now? What's that like?

I’ve been stupendously lucky with Raw Shark, things have worked out better than I ever could have hoped. Publishing the book has been an absolute dream, mainly because, Canongate (my UK publishers who control the Raw Shark world rights) are so great at genuinely enthusiastic about what they do. I’m lucky to be with a small independent publishing house with a great list and a great reputation. I’m not sure if anyone else could have launched Raw Shark around the world the way they have.

I’ve heard stories from friends who are published by big, corporate houses. The stories are horrific. I’ve been very lucky.

Yep, I can write full-time now. It’s brilliant.

If I’ve missed any other questions, give me a shout.

Okay, some things to think about/discuss on The Raw Shark Texts:

1) How much do you trust The First Eric Sanderson, how much do you trust the second? Are they telling the whole story. Can they? Are there points in the story where the reader might see something that Eric hasn’t, or maybe that he doesn’t want to talk about/face up to/deal with? Who is Eric Sanderson?

2) Why do some characters appear in the book and then disappear? Why do some characters never appear at all? Are there reasons for this, or are these simply plot holes? Can plot holes ever be justified? What’s going on with all the holes in Raw Shark Texts anyway? How many holes can you spot? Why are they there?

3) Symmetry, doubles and reflections crop up again and again in the story, any theories as to why? It’d be fun to see how many examples people can spot of these too.

4) Why does the Second Eric speak the way he does? Can we learn anything about him from his voice?

5) Why a conceptual shark?

6) So the ending – happy or sad, neither or both?

I'm thinking that’s probably enough for now. I’ll post more as and when, other folks should feel happy to post questions too. I'll be on this thread as much as I can for the rest of the month.

Looking forward to seeing where all this goes & thanks everyone for making Raw Shark your July book

S

I'm two-hundred pages into it so I'm not going to read too deep into the posts. I should finish in a couple of days, even if I'm driving to Vermont. And yeah, I'm finding it imposable not to fully read what Stephen wrote.

Stephen, if you want to add pictures, when you post click "manage attachments" and upload some. If you have the pictures in an ftp space just add the links.

I will add this association I made, because I wrote a paper for a journal involving Lacan's Mirror Stage, and where language falls into that psychology.

Right at the beginning of book there's a scene where Eric wakes up blank, pre-cogntion, an infant, then shortly after looks in the mirror. When talking to the psychologist, he's told something like: "everything is there except you." For me, this was the moment where the ideal mirror-image was formed (a stage naturally formed at infancy) but not realizing it. I won't break down the psychological ramifications of the mirror-image, just thought I'd mention the association, that the mirror stage can exist when you're an adult, via amnesia, so in the case of Eric, the first Eric Sanderson becomes his O/other, an ideal he wants to reach but can [I]never [/I]reach. And the whole interconnected web of language was another part, or how we formulate the ideal mirror image in a "casket" of discourse/language.

I even opened the paper up with this quote, and you were fully cited Steven so don't sue:

[I]The man in the wardrobe mirror carefully touched his fingers over his thin cheeks, his nose, his mouth, his short crop of dirty brown hair. He was in his late twenties, tired, pale and a bit sickly looking. He frowned at me. I tried to read the history hidden inside the frown as he made it—what kind of person wrinkles his forehead like that? What sort of life builds up a pattern of lines like those?—but that was nothing to be seen that I could decode. The man was a stranger and his expressions were written in a language I couldn’t begin to understand.[/I]

I'm going to do some research on those questions. Extended reading. But I should say, the whole novel gives me that uncomfortable feeling of being similar to the last chapter of Fight Club. Especially the talk with Mr. Nobody. The way he speaks is, I guess, [I]One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest[/I]-esque. Maybe. Maybe not at all though.

[QUOTE=Steven Hall;996071]

Why a conceptual shark?

S[/QUOTE]

There are a few good reasons to use a shark. For one thing, since the idea of conceptual beings is a little difficult to comprehend, it's a good idea to tie it to something that's easier to imagine. It's also easier to recognize in the "illustrations" in the book because a shark has a sort of iconic profile.
Sharks are scary as hell, no doubt. But on the other hand, we as humans should be able to beat them. We have the technology and the thinking to take out a shark, which is kind of incredible. A shark is devastating in its element, but there are measures humans can take to eliminate that advantage. Shark cages, fishing poles, etc. It's an interesting inversion when the shark our superior technology against us.

To answer another question, No, I didn't trust the other Eric.
I can't ever trust those weird people in stories. I didn't trust Morpheus in the Matrix, I don't ever believe anyone like that. Anybody else like that? For all I know I've missed out on some sweet adventures because I just didn't believe some dude who said I was living in a fantasy world.

I'd walked past the book about a dozen times in B&N, that red cover just screaming at me to buy it, and I finally picked it up at a Borders in Santa Fe this week while on vacation. Read the first 20 pages and now I'm hooked. I'll be staying away from this thread for the next few days so I can finish it (don't want to accidentally read any spoilers.)

Yet another delay keeping me from finishing Pynchon's V., but I'll knock it out eventually!

Thanks for your willingness to talk about the book in the forum, Steven. I look forward to reading it and joining the discussion!

Benny

Is it redundant to say that those are excellent questions?

At any rate...they are thinkers. I'm going to have to sit on them for a while. Also, I might have to re-read TRST. Damn good questions, damn good.

[QUOTE=Steven Hall;996071]I have actually designed a Raw Shark cover though. If anyone can tell me how to post pictures I’ll put it up here. It began life as the slipcase cover for the limited edition book, but is now also the cover of the Finnish book, and I think maybe the Hungarian too. I’m running a quiet campaign to get it onto the US paperback, but we’ll see how that goes. [/QUOTE]

You have to first put your picture online somewhere - like photobucket. On photobucket there is actually a thing under the pictures that is done for you. It's the one with the brackets like [these]. You can copy and paste that into a post.

Or you grab the link for the picture - it's URL. And then you can click the "Insert Image" button above the Reply to Thread dialog box. Insert the URL into the box that pops up.

Ahoy sailors,

The main thing that made me wonder about Eric 1's trustworthiness was the fact that the letters started arriving at just the right time. How would the logistics for this work? Who was posting them and how would they know when to start.

I found I trusted Dr Randle less. Her comment about not opening the letters is very suspicious, and could be construed as a reverse psychology method for ensuring eric would, at the least, hide them from her, at best read them. Is there a possibility that she is part of Mycroft Ward? Scout talking about her specialist being Mycroft made me wonder.

Does anyone feel that the floor being wet at Eric 2's birth relevant? It is only mentioned once, and could just be due to his "wet mouth" mentioned a page earlier.

As for symmetry, I feel there maybe something with Eric's dad and Fidorous, a sort of negative, but i really need to read the book again. I'll be back with more when I'm done.

Cheers, Peat.

I always figured that Eric 1 had a phone number to call every day, and when he didn't call it the letters would begin.

But who was sending the letters?

I need to reread the book, too, but I loaned it to a buddy.

While I ponder Stephen's questions, I have a question of my own.

Stephen, I just finished reading Vonnegut's Sirens of Titan. I noticed a parallel between that book and TRST in that Unk, like almost all the Martians in Vonnegut's book, has his memory wiped out...at one point, he finds a letter from himself that he wrote should his memory be erased again. The letter reveals certain "facts" that Unk knows to be true.

Not sure if you've read this book (coincidentally, it was also a Cult Book Club book), so I guess my first question is, have you? If so, is this parallel intentional? I know there are references to several other works in TRST, so it seems feasible. At any rate, if that is not the case, it is still interesting, because the question you posed about trusting the first Eric could also apply to Unk...I would not have thought of this question on my own - but it is a very good one in regards to both books.

[QUOTE=marsjams13;995902]I found it intriguing. I really enjoyed the play with words, language, and communication (the signifier becoming the signified, for example). It's been a few months since I read it though, so I'll have to dive back in to it when we start getting into specifics.

There is a prologue, called The Aquarium Fragment that everyone will probably be interested in. Find it [URL=http://www.rawshark.ca/]Here[/URL]. I would reccomend
not reading it until after you've finished the book, but it would be interesting to hear how it influences your view of the story if it's the first thing you read too.

More specifically, when is Seven joining the discussion?[/QUOTE]

so how do you get to this aquarium fragment?

Steven- Do you think you may be starting a trend with the layout of your novel along with House of Leaves. Is your second book going to be similar?

[QUOTE=Steven Hall;996071]An art teacher once told me that you should be using your pencil and your eraser for similar amounts of time on a drawing, I think the same is true with a book.
[/QUOTE]

I'm stealing this.

[QUOTE=moe.ron;996907]so how do you get to this aquarium fragment?[/QUOTE]Just type in the password. It's pretty obvious. If you can't figure it out let me know and I'll PM the password to you.

i've tried everything i can think of, so you'll have to throw me a bone.

i hate it when i miss obvious stuff!!

Question for Steven: In your Acknowledgements, you thank David Mitchell for "notes and the chocolate." Can you talk about your relationship and what kind of work you've done together? Also, we had a pretty decent [I]Cloud Atlas[/I] discussion [URL=http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=19395]here[/URL] if you care to add to it. It was the February '05 Book Club book.

Is this a book I could plow through in time to get into this? It sounds wild, and the formatting may slow me down. I've got lunch hours all week for sure. How long did it take you guys - days, weeks, months? Thanks SH for being here.

and moe, i totally agree on sedaris, one of the funniest guys out there - the other books were american psyco where i actually gagged (thought i might vomit) and the shining scared me to death

THANKS!
Peace,
Richard

[QUOTE=wickerkat;997101]Is this a book I could plow through in time to get into this? It sounds wild, and the formatting may slow me down. I've got lunch hours all week for sure. How long did it take you guys - days, weeks, months? Thanks SH for being here.

and moe, i totally agree on sedaris, one of the funniest guys out there - the other books were american psyco where i actually gagged (thought i might vomit) and the shining scared me to death

THANKS!
Peace,
Richard[/QUOTE]

The first read took be about a week, though I think I read it pretty regularly. If you give yourself your lunch break and some time when you get home you should be alright to join in.

SPOILERS.

As for the Eric Sandersons. I don't trust the first one at all. I was still undecided if maybe Dr. Randle was playing some sort of experiment with the "second" one, and had placed all those letters herself. Then I also have some sort of farfetched idea that Eric Sanderson and Mycroft Ward have more of a connection than simply Scout and the Ludovician. I felt that might explain why the Ludovician is hunting him, maybe because he is Mycroft Ward and Scout and Fidorous are trapping him? I don't know. I don't know.

I didn't notice any plotholes. I'll try and give it a re-read.

As for the conceptual shark. I mean, semantically it means the Shark is not there. It's just the concept of a shark. All the consequence with none of the action. Causality gone wrong. It's... I'm not too good at making this fluent. The Ludovician perhaps is not a hunting Shark, but the idea of it being one is a trait given to it in exposition. The story is, after all, written, oh I can't even remember that word, it's fucking absurd. It's written in the past? Uses the past participle instead of the present? I've just woken up, so see if you can salvage something from that.

The ending. Well, the fact that his memories are cut-and-paste twisted affairs pretty much cemented that we'd need to think about what was what in the book. Scout's "death" was very similar to Clio's, and I can't find anymore clues about that. Other than a premise, a clue which in itself has us asking is this a real fantastical world Eric Sanderson has found himself in, or is this part of the fuge? No doubt you know yourself Steven, but I bet it's a fair penny that says you'll never tell.

[QUOTE=wickerkat;997101]Is this a book I could plow through in time to get into this? It sounds wild, and the formatting may slow me down. I've got lunch hours all week for sure. How long did it take you guys - days, weeks, months? Thanks SH for being here.

and moe, i totally agree on sedaris, one of the funniest guys out there - the other books were american psyco where i actually gagged (thought i might vomit) and the shining scared me to death

THANKS!
Peace,
Richard[/QUOTE]

You can blast through. The formatting doesn't slow you down the way it does in house of leaves. In fact, if you flip through the bok really fast you'll see there are lots of pages with not too much to read on them, so go for it!
(off subject: I saw Sedaris in Portland in April. If you ever get the chance to see him, do it)

Took me about a week to read as well...and I only read on my way to and from work for the most part.

[QUOTE=moe.ron;997078]i've tried everything i can think of, so you'll have to throw me a bone.

i hate it when i miss obvious stuff!![/QUOTE]

the answer is, like, right in front of you on the page....

part of your above post is soooo close!!

[QUOTE=tomstrong83;997228]You can blast through. The formatting doesn't slow you down the way it does in house of leaves. In fact, if you flip through the bok really fast you'll see there are lots of pages with not too much to read on them, so go for it!
(off subject: I saw Sedaris in Portland in April. If you ever get the chance to see him, do it)[/QUOTE]

cool thanks guys, it's in the mail - i'll have to put sedaris back on my radar too - wish he would put out a new book - sorry, OT, but he's so funny

[QUOTE=TastesLikeChicken;997465]the answer is, like, right in front of you on the page....

part of your above post is soooo close!![/QUOTE]

Now I feel stupid too. I just went there out of curiosity to see if I could figure it out. I guess I suck!