Writers Career

There's technical writing, business scripting (someone has to write those annoying cold call scripts), paid blogging, etc. Basically, no writing job pays much of anything. But you can find tangential jobs and odds and ends to keep the money coming in.

Most jobs are just going to be shitty... if you're going to be a writer, though. And I'm talking fiction.. try somewhere you interact with people who might be slightly interesting. I wrote for a magazine for about a year and a half... and it's probably just because of where I live.. but my editor wouldn't accept most of my articles because he didn't like the tone (not everyone can be Hunter S.) and everyone was really yuppie and boring. But whatever. you're only fourteen. You got time, baby.

[QUOTE=DAN9108;933820]I am in 9th grade and i am doing a project in my class about careers. I chose being a writer, mainly fictional novels. If I do persue this career I am going to get my bachelors degree, my teacher said probably liberal arts, does anyone object to this, if so, give me some ideas.
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There's nothing wrong with a liberal arts degree. Just be aware that a BA isn't terribly employable. The thing to do is study what interests you the most and worry about the rest later. A bachelor's degree in business might set you up better for an entry level job at a bank, or whatever, but who the hell wants to spend his entire life in a money mausoleum?

I think the best liberal arts majors are English literature, philosophy, and history. You'll get not only tons of content in these disciplines, but also, useful analytic methodology that trains you for doing secondary research in any field. You can do women's studies, "cultural studies," or whatever the latest, fancy, cross-disciplinary thing that comes along as a minor, if you want, but major in one of the big three. If you want a fine arts degree, go for a Master's of Fine Arts, after getting a traditional bachelor's degree.

Don't get married until you've graduated from college, unless she's a hardworker who likes paying the bills and putting you through school. Even then, don't do it.

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One more thing, my teacher pointed out that writers do not make much money
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High schools are full of disappointed people who wanted to be writers, scientists, software engineers, film actors, astronauts, or high public officials. Something didn't work out along the way, and they became your teachers instead. Always keep that in mind when they're giving you advice.

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But in the real world, money is a need, so what are some other side jobs you would recommend if i was going to have a side job. I have heard about newspaper and magazine articles, but is there anything I have overlooked?[/QUOTE]

Ironically, considering the flavor of my last claim, [b]teaching[/b] is a pretty good side gig for a writer. What other job keeps paying the bills but gives you the summer off to do other things?

Or, you could listen to the other high school students in the thread who are programmed to think that writing can't be a real career. Novels are really just something a few lucky people dash off in their spare time, the way I do brain surgery on cats and homeless people, just to prove that a medical degree is irrelevant to getting good results.

But wouldn't you also agree that just because you go to grad school and study to become a writer doesn't mean you will be prosperous. I'm not trying to discourage him from becoming a writer, but I do think he should have something else in mind, just in case.

But thats my huge problem... I have absolutely NO idea what I want to do as a future career if i write as a side job. There is nothing I have found that intrests me whatsoever. Like all we ever do at school is research careers and jobs and colleges, and its pissing me off because I need more time to think about jobs and not be bombarded with fifty career projects a semester. I just wanna take a huge shit on my techers head and tell them to fuck off. But i can't. So i guess im just gonna have to deal and see what happens later on in school. Thanks for listening to my problems

I just graduated with a BA in English about a semester ago. I can tell you that I'm still working the same job I was before. However, I can also tell you that most of the people I graduated with are doing the same thing. Getting a degree in anything doesn't guarantee you anything. And planning a career path when you're 14 is retarded. But I know it's for a class, so you have no choice. Here's my personal advice: your job isn't your life. It's what you do at night that counts. It's taking classes or volunteering or doing whatever. Going to college and writing is a great way to prepare for a career as a writer, but that's mostly because it forces you to sit down and crank out more material than you might otherwise. A practical bit of career advice would be to look into getting your masters in Library Science. It's an easy degree, which means you have lots of time for writing. Then you work in a boring place where you have lots of interaction with people and plenty of time to write, yet enough dough to live comfortably.
But hell, when I did that career crap I told everyone I would be majoring in animal husbandry.

Well, if you were alone on an island, and you didn't have any books or writting materials, what would you do?

*this is for dan.

[QUOTE=monkeywright;933825] business scripting (someone has to write those annoying cold call scripts)[/QUOTE]
I do that sometimes! I love making the callers say shit I would never say!

If i was on an island with no materials, I would probably try to stay alive until i was rescued. Not much else to do on an island.:rolleyes:

Ok, I'm saying what are your interests other than becoming an author?

Thats what i am trying to figure out, I honestly don't know. I have been unsure about my future career forever.

Well, go toward what you want then. You obviously want to be a writer, and that's great! I hope you do well. As you grow older and are made aware of more careers, keep an eye out for anything else that interests you in case you do need that fall back. Good luck!

Thanks for the help everyone. I hope I find something that intrests me as much as writing does.

[QUOTE=LeHaHi;933847]But wouldn't you also agree that just because you go to grad school and study to become a writer doesn't mean you will be prosperous. I'm not trying to discourage him from becoming a writer, but I do think he should have something else in mind, just in case.[/QUOTE]

No degree guarantees a prosperous career. But yes, some degrees are far more practical for gaining leverage into the workforce. If practical job skills is your major criterion, then nursing school, or a radiology technician program are good ideas. In business school, accounting is a more practical degree than marketing. Accountants are practical people. Nurses are practical people. There's a much neater relationship between getting a degree in one of these fields and getting a job with it, yes. But that sort of thing is not for everybody. Personally, I wasn't born to be that practical. My brain isn't wired for it.

If you're made for the Arts, then you'll probably have to work harder in some ways, than people with 'normal' careers. You'll have to do more to distinguish yourself, yet without alienating or disparaging your rivals. And you'll have to pursue your never-ending education with more of an amateur's love for what you're doing than a businessman's bottomline, even though life seems to require one eye on the bottomline.

Still, what are the chances you'll ever make it if all of your energy is spent on your b-plan? I'm telling you, you'll come home too tired from working in the factory to write that novel. The b-plan is the practical plan that you [b]must[/b] have in place if you get married too young or buy a snowmobile on a credit card. It declares itself as the practical route, but it's actually the plan that lets you be [i]impractical[/i] in self-indulgent ways. The grown-ups who advise b-plan thinking are mostly lazy shrubs.

If a career in the arts occupies a [i]"wouldn't it be nice?"[/i] category in your mind, then you'll never, never have one. Or the odds will be like winning the lottery during a lunar eclipse. But if a career in the arts turns out to be the thing that's right for you, you CAN have one. And you don't have to be on the celebrity or superstar level to make a living from it.

Thank you for the advice!

If you want to be a writer - go after it full force. No half assed, oh maybe I'll just wait tables until I finish my book bullcrap. Go after it. Write write write submit submit submit. Great things are not accomplished by half assed individuals.

remind your teacher that teachers don't make very much money either.
And I doubt any secondary school teacher in the US makes anywhere near as much money as, say, Steven King, or even Chuck.

[QUOTE=ScribblingDes;934079]remind your teacher that teachers don't make very much money either.
And I doubt any secondary school teacher in the US makes anywhere near as much money as, say, Steven King, or even Chuck.[/QUOTE]

Stephen King could start his own school, and hire people not to teach stupid things in it. He could have the bad teachers deported and buy enough thugs and enough politicians to get away with it. He could probably just go ahead and start his own damn country. Unfortunately, he's a statistical outlyer. Bureau of Labor Statistics puts the average writer's income at something like $9,000 per year--far less than school teachers and hardly a living wage. But I think the numbers are skewed by people who dabble at freelance writing or work for small town newspapers. You don't have to be Stephen King, or even Chuck Palahniuk, to make a living at it. You just have to get up off your duff and be better than average.

holy shit. I'm 25 and I still haven't got a clue as to what I 'want' to do. I studied photography for 3 years and have barely touched a camera since. So for the past 4 years I worked in retail and have now moved on to the dizzy heights of office work. It sucks when you literally are working and existing just to pay your bills. I don't think you should be worrying about stuff like this at your age. Although maybe I should be

dont consider fellatio, dan.

i worked at kmart for a while, and i got a good four chapters out of it in a month. i invented a character and a situation for every single person that came in. the whole "push a button, pull a lever" "youre the middle man in consumerism" can make some good writing, even if youre not talking about that kind of thing. it allows for perspective.
working a shit job that pays shit while youre writing allows your characters to have conflict, i think. look at the proust philosophy of "all great art comes from suffering."

[QUOTE=alex pallix;934082]holy shit. I'm 25 and I still haven't got a clue as to what I 'want' to do. I studied photography for 3 years and have barely touched a camera since. So for the past 4 years I worked in retail and have now moved on to the dizzy heights of office work. It sucks when you literally are working and existing just to pay your bills. I don't think you should be worrying about stuff like this at your age. Although maybe I should be :)[/QUOTE]

I know that feeling, and I don't even work - I'm finishing BA in English Lit. But sometimes it seems that you live to work and work to live, and when that happens, the meaninglessness of existence hits me like a lawyer from a window on the 12th floor. It makes me depressed and it makes me write, because for me, that's life with meaning, the only way to make sense of it, to justify it. Because consumption, which is living, really, is not a goal in itself. There has to be more. There always has to be more, and that more always has to do with how your life makes you [I]feel[/I]. It's all about feelings, feelings of content and miscontent and the whole breadth of the human experience, what's left rattling inside your head when you go to bed at night and when you've just woken up. That's what makes war and peace and makes up all the ambiguous yet meaningful answers to those important questions that will always need answering.

Long rant short: Do what you feel like doing. Do what makes you feel good. Do what makes you happy, what feels right. And do what you have to, what we all have to do to get along. You have to do both. But the first thing you do because your life depends on it. The second thing you do because you are a living organism. And never, ever worry - it doesn't help. Ever. It's an important bit of advice that never seems to follow the rest of the advice that floats around.

And no, as of yet, I have not been able to live this advice fully, but it is my ambition to do so.

Writing this advice made me sad. And worried.

I think it's a tricky job to use for a school 'career' project because it's not like someone will hire you to be a novelist. You write novels, work at getting them published, and then if they make some money you might start getting out of regular 'work.'

Even Stephen King worked in a laundromat before he hit the big time. And that kind of lottery-winner sort of success is so rare as to be meaningless.

Chuck worked as a deisel mechanic, though it seems like the #1 job for midlist authors is English teacher. David Sedaris picked fruit, cleaned houses, etc., even awhile after he could have supported himself off his writing. Kurt Vonnegut did public relations work, Don DeLillo worked in advertising, Jonathan Lethem worked used book stores, etc.

I'm not sure how you'd translate that into a 'career' project, because in the conventional sense, these other jobs were the 'career' and the writing was a hobby. I haven't seen the numbers in years, but I seem to recall that 50,000-some people publish books in the United States but only a few hundred make their livings entirely as authors. Like with rock bands and professional sports, many are called...

[QUOTE=aphonicmessiah;934084]look at the proust philosophy of "all great art comes from suffering."[/QUOTE]

What he meant, of course, was: All great art comes from the suffering..[I]of others.[/I]

Oh wait, maybe that was the Marquis de Sade.

I'm with you on a writer needing diverse life experiences, working and interacting with people on more than one social eschelon. But I'm not big on the worship of pain. Undoubtedly, great art derives often, if not exclusively, from the transmutation of human pain and suffering. But it's bad to make a fetish out of it, and you're a masochist if you seek it out for its own sake, even in the name of art.

Life will bring plenty of suffering, anyway. And that's regardless of which risks you decide to take and which to abstain from. And it's true regardless of the socio-economic level you find yourself working in. Why not have a rich man's suffering, if you can?

It's a grand and wonderful thing if you can transform your pain into art. But you risk becoming monotone if it's the entire thrust of your work. An artist has to capture the whole range of human experience without undue bias or filtering; that is, to be great. That's why we still read Shakespeare despite his old-fashioned tongue. He could render everything villanous in human nature without sounding like a preacher who abhorred it all and equally without sounding like a shock jock who revelled in the filth. He could also render the sublime without sounding like a sentimentalist or a panzy. No equals in that department.

But I'm a little off track here, because the thrust of this thread is research into writing as a career, and you and I have gone clean over the fence into writing as an artform and a calling. I don't believe these paths are mutually exclusive or separated by a whole forest full of trees. But they are not the same. How much you suffer for your art and how much you get paid for it are not the same thing at all, unless you measure suffering strictly in terms of the pain involved in working on a deadline.

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[b][i]Edit:[/i][/b] Also, everything Rod Lobster said above as I was composing this soliloquy.

There's two good books that I would recommend for you to check out.

First one - Go and get yourself a copy of the [url=http://www.amazon.com/Writers-Market-2007/dp/1582974276/sr=8-1/qid=1172155701/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2591031-4680915?ie=UTF8&s=books]Writer's Market[/url]. You want the newest one you can get. You will find more places to sell your writing than you knew were out there. This doesn't guarantee anything though. It'll just give you an idea of how much is out there and how to go about getting your foot in the door of everyone of those places. If you only want to write fiction - there is also a Fiction Writer's Market (I think it's the Novel and Short Story Writer's Market.

After you see that - there is also a book I suggest to help you figure out what you really want to do - [url=http://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-Parachute-2007/dp/1580087949/sr=1-1/qid=1172156001/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2591031-4680915?ie=UTF8&s=books]What Color Is Your Parachute?[/url]. This book helps you figure out what you can do and what really interest you. I mean - if you like being creative and writing - there are plenty of things you can go into. Take advertising. You can become a copywriter or go into the marketing aspect and come up with actual plans of attack. You options are pretty wide open if you "just like writing" and this book should help you see that.

Thank you for the book reccomendations, im not sure if i want to have a career and write as a hobby, or write and have a smaller side job, im really not sure. But im thinking

[QUOTE=DAN9108;934301]Thank you for the book reccomendations, im not sure if i want to have a career and write as a hobby, or write and have a smaller side job, im really not sure. But im thinking :)[/QUOTE]

Well - What Color Is Your Parachute? will help you with that.

And the Writer's Market will help you with seeing where you can take your writing. You don't just have to be a journalist or write books.

Also, read Henry Miller on Writing... it's possibly the best book on the thing I've yet read.

[QUOTE=rkdaley;933977]If you want to be a writer - go after it full force. No half assed, oh maybe I'll just wait tables until I finish my book bullcrap. Go after it. Write write write submit submit submit. Great things are not accomplished by half assed individuals.[/QUOTE]

This is the only advice you should be reading, Dan...

The other advice is fine, but this is straight up, to the point answer.

I remember P.J. O'Rourke writing of a guy he knew in college who was a 'real writer.' He said there were two things that proved it: the guy wrote every day and the guy was drinking himself to death.

[QUOTE=Chixulub;936833]I remember P.J. O'Rourke writing of a guy he knew in college who was a 'real writer.' He said there were two things that proved it: the guy wrote every day and the guy was drinking himself to death.[/QUOTE]

It would be fucking hilarious for a high schooler to prepare a career day presentation around becoming an author that includes a projection of his progress through future addictions. Deliver it all with bar graphs, pie charts, and a completely straight face.

The best advice I can give anyone wanting to get into writing would be that it's somthing that,you just have to stick with, as you will get more rejection that in any other job

You would be best to study somthing like English and Journalism, which will help you develop your writing style and also give you honest critcism, somthing thats never easy to find with everyone thinking that they can't bad mouth your work.

Also join writing groups or evening writing classes, as being around other writers helps develop your work and give you more constructive critism. The group will also help smooth out bumps in your storylines and devlop ideas.

It is never a good idea to just leave school, college etc and say your gonna be a writer as lets face it, this doesn't pay the bills so make sure you have a trade to fall back on, if you decide you don't want to be a writer. Just being a writer is also the best way to get writers block!

I work currently in Retail and write freelance on the side, but before that I worked as a lifeguard and in a call centre to name a few, all which gave me valuable writing material, as you use your life experiences in your stories, as real life is always alot more bizzare than fiction. An Example of this is Kevin Smith wrote Clerks based around the people he encountered while working in a quick stop conveniance store and the friends he hung out with.

Freelance work is best gained by just submiting your work, to magazines whose work you like, which is how I started out.Failing that just sent it to everyone!! Also raw enthusiasm covers for alot and editors generally appricate it. Also the more work you get published the more you can add to your portfolio, so keep copies of any work you get published.

Alot of Magazine are run by a large company, who will have several magazines which is how I started working for Hotdog and later Lovefilm. It's also important to build your contacts, as often this will increase the amount of work you can get, so be nice to everyone

Finally if someone asks you to write about somthing you have no idea about, always agree as you can always go away and research it, as with my current project on Cult Director "John Waters" who I'd only seen a couple of films of, but still agreed to do it, which kinda worked to my advantage as I ended up getting the whole back catalogue sent to me on DVD!!

To add to what some folks have alluded to, if writing novels becomes a part-time gig as it is for most, try to have a day job that requires a different part of your brain, that doesn't tax your right half so much. Unlike another poster, I think factory work would actually be conducive to writing in the evenings. Your body may be worn out, but your mind's still up for the challenge. The kind of job you don't take home with you or lose sleep over. The things you're passionate about are what should keep you awake at night.

I have a job that's creatively draining, so I almost have to wait until the weekends to crank out any writing of quality. But just to chime in on the rest of the thread, my degree is in Broadcasting, and I earned a decent wage writing video scripts and ad/brochure copy for six years. It wasn't me writing whatever I wanted, and there were lots of constraints, but it was killer experience in very tight, precise, visual writing that I'm now able to apply to my novel.

Thank you for the advice, my school is implementing a "major" system and I am going to major in Journalism for my sophomore year, but I will soon come up with some kind of backup plan for my career later on.

Dan,

I just read through the thread and have some good advice for you. I knew I wanted to be a writer by 9th grade as well. But it wasn't until my sophomore year in college I actually became a writer. You can't 'want' to be writer, you 'have' to be a writer!

--Kill Your TV (just do it!)
--write every day
--read every day
--Major in English because it will give you a strong foundation and enhance all cognitive abililites appropriate for any writer (but get a job as a newspaper reporter for at leat 1 year)
--read "On Becoming a Novelist" by John Gardner
--Don't stress; you're still young
--write every day
--write every day
--there is no single answer to anything
--write every day
--read poetry

People look up to writers because they live their lives, doing something that most people only dream about but never actually accomplish. Writing is not easy. It takes conviction and discipline. Writing also takes social and monetary sacrifice, but it's worth it. It's a special way to spend one's life, and it comes with moments of beauty and intensity that only an artist or craftsman can know. If I don't write I start to fall apart and things get very ugly. So. I write every day.

You'll hear all sorts of advice but only one path will be what's right for you. Do what gives you life!

JUST DON'T MAJOR IN BUSINESS!!!!!

P.S. I highly recommend the English program at Rockhurst University in Kansas City.

bartend your way through a few shitty novels and short story publications in obscure magazines and regional culture rags

you'll know what to do after that.....

[url]http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16549[/url]

This is so true. Many people see writing as some artsy occupation that one could brag about, but don't realize it has to already be in you. It's not something you choose. I always thought I wanted to be a novelist, but found my niche in journalism. It's best to let it just come to you instead of 'figuring out' whether or not you want to be a writer.

End scene.

A good backup is a copywriter in the advertising industry but be careful, it could kill your desire to write at all, but at least it gives mom and dad something to pay for that they can feel good about.

Also read "On Writing," by Stephen King.

And screw the jerks here that are dumping on you. Any art is very difficult to do and make lots of money - painting, writing, music, acting, etc. You can get a minor in creative writing as well. Look for schools that have great programs, there are many - Ohio/Iowa (I always forget which) is one. Start writing now in HS, take as many HS classes as you can. Start writing short stories, a novel is going to be a long way off. Hone your skills. Take a class or intensive here.

Peace,
Richard

[QUOTE=chimney scott;934438]Also, read Henry Miller on Writing... it's possibly the best book on the thing I've yet read.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this! although, if you're just starting out writing you might want to put it off till you get your feet a little more wet. It's pretty heavy reading. Kinda like giving a baby a big thick steak to eat instead of applesauce. Definitely get it though.

[QUOTE=happy_hooker;981483]bartend your way through a few shitty novels and short story publications in obscure magazines and regional culture rags

you'll know what to do after that.....[/QUOTE]

. .

i kind of feel that way. when i out of the blue decided to give writing a chance, i went all out. tossed working for the dealership, quit the morning of jan one, 2004. if i remember, it was the day of the first chuck assignment. got a job at a diner, and started learning. over the years, it feels like a pretty noble profession for anyone trying to break into entertainment. whether youre eminem working at some shithole or bruce willis working from one bar to the next between "jobs". my woman, who wants to support me morally, thinks im dreaming. what she probably doesnt know is that i in fact do need her constant criticism. she can tell me straight up when something is unreadable. and has. and she has cried over other pieces. her criticism has only ever helped me improve. it's the third novel that makes or breaks a writer's career, so i have a few years to go to see how much of this is dream and how much of this would be helpful toward rent or a mortgage.

-kabol

..

misterwoe, i cant find your workshop profile. is it under a different name or some variation of your cult handle ?

[QUOTE=ScribblingDes;934079]remind your teacher that teachers don't make very much money either.[/QUOTE]

Uhhh, yeah. For those looking to IMMEDIATELY fail the class, that is a great idea. (And as VP so graciously pointed out, on average, teachers make much more than writers.)