HEROES R US... and watchmen

I've never had any heroes. I think it is because I've never felt enough devotion towards someone fictional, and I guess the same goes about real people. I don't know them so I can't idolize them. Sort-of.

I think a hero is an idol. I've only liked musicians, for example, because they are talented and/or something they do appeal to me. But I've never really been crazy devoted as a fan.

My hero is Chuck Yeager. I had always figured he was just the next guy in line to fly the one plane and just so happened to be the one in it when he broke the sound barrier. But after reading his two autobiographies I was blown away. All the stuff he went through in WWII and Korea and Vietnam, then on top of that all the adventures he's gone on in his civilian life and then on top of all that the way he found and had lived with the love of his life for so many years. Basically, when I close my eyes and envision the type of man I want to be, he's the benchmark.
Plus he's got that perfect level of fame where he can walk down the street and shop or get a cup of coffee and not many people are going to recognize him to hassle him.

There's a difference between a hero and a role model, I think. I mean, the phrase, "He/She's my hero!" kind of made the idea of what a hero is ridiculous. A hero, I believe, is someone who went that extra mile, against the odds, for altruistic intentions, and for the better of mankind. Altruism is rare nowadays, and I don't even think a lot of these activist musicians really qualify, because it usually gets them exposure and credibility with a certain group of people, which is mutually beneficial, not altruistic. A person that does his/her job isn't heroic. My hero is Thomas Paine. Now that guy did a shitload of extra work for the advancement of the philosophy of liberty. He was imprisoned for it, and he still continued to persevere towards his philosophies.

Even by that definition, I stand by Yeager as my hero. The altruism may not come into play but everything else fits.

But that's the most important part!

Also, can we retire this bullshit about every half-wit and nincompoop that's ever put of a fireman's hat or policeman's badge as automatically a hero? I was willing to let it slide for a couple years after 9/11, but now it's just starting to get ridiculous.

Yeah, I think a person has to prove himself before being considered a hero. I don't think I've ever heard of a cop going completely against regulation and protocol to do what he thought was the right thing.

I think Civil Courage makes people heroes. Doing an extraordinary thing for someone in an ordinary or extraordinary situation.
You can't go about thinking "I'm going to be a hero today, so I'll find trouble and make things right". That's just, I don't know, suicidal?

A hero is a hero by chance.

^^^ That, too.

I think at this point in time my hero is Tommy Douglas. He's just one of those politicians that radical change their country, and for the better, that's even rarer. He went against everything and one, just to do the right thing and what he believed in.

Thank you for these words. I think that sums up a hero perfectly.

If a hero is a hero by chance, classically speaking, how would you define the likes of Hercules, Oddyseus, Achilles...etc. that sought out fame and glory as heroes?

Hero isn't by chance, they're only heros if they succeed.

I don't think most people automatically think cops or firefighters are heros by virtue of occupational choice or academy training experience.

I do think that when a responsible member of service performs his or her duty that the most important feature of that duty is the protection and preservation of life.
You might think that if every member of service performs that way then you wouldn't have a problem with the "hero" tag.
I say 9 out of 10 people fake it until they make it in EVERY profession. You just notice more when firefighters and cops screw up because when they screw up it makes the evening news. When someone gets your order wrong at a diner there aren't protests at city hall.

....Still thinking about my hero (s)..... Going outside instead.

Batman in "The Dark Knight Returns" --- by Frank Miller

The version of Batman from that book has shaped my life since I was 11 years old.

That was my hero.

edit to say, now Chuck's my hero. Meeting him was one of the best days of my life.

Not taking you to task on this or anything, but this causes me to think...

What's the difference between being a fan of someone, and holding them as a Hero? Is there, in fact, a difference?

Example: I'm a fan of Rock And Roll Musician X, and of Socially Relevant Novelist Y, but wouldn't consider either of them personal heroes, let alone worthy of Herodom in general.

This is open to anyone. Thoughts?

Being a fan of something, for me, is more related to that person's work, as in loving their books/movies/music. When you talk about someone being your hero, it's directly related to that person and maybe what he/she stands for/believes in.

I think that's clear and reasonable. Thanks, Imk.

Anyone else?

I'm with ya Tuffy, you're supercool so far. I'll share.

I think Chuck is a conduit of the universe.
Chucks work is a great delivery system for the type of enlightenment that's made me live life in a higher functioning mindset.

I'm better at who I am for many reasons, many of those is because of his heroism in writing about things that are uncomfortable and being able to deliver enlightenment through his distinguished brand of inappropriate storytelling.

I consider his work to be self help books. Alot of my life is pure terror, I get through most of it thanks to his ideas. I could tell you why I have a "Rant" tree night tattoo, but that wouldn't cover it. I could tell you how he did the most kindest, most selfless thing anyone has ever done for my son ((who went through HELL)) but you wouldn't believe it.

The man is my hero.

At my son's 3rd birthday my family was moved to tears of joy by something Chuck did.

That's all I can say
just take my word for it. He's my hero.

I think it's harder to define a hero these days because we have come to associate heroes with people who are inspirations to us. I don't think being inspirational is the same as being heroic. In fact when I was writing this paper I was asking other people to help me out and what their definitions of hero was. One dude told me I could write my paper on him because people thought of him as a hero. He explained how as a young child he had cancer and others admired how he handled his condition. I felt like a dick, I explained how that was inspirational and all but by no means was what he did for people heroic.

The best definition I have come up with was :

A hero is someone who steps up in a moment of crisis, he is selfless in that moment, and most likely will sacrifice something in the process.

If you know who the hero in Watchmen is the definition makes sense.

I really hope you're talking about Rorschach.

Rorschach was the patsy, not the hero.

Nope.

I think it's very clear that Dr. Manhattan was framed for the entire mess by the end. He was framed for the cities being exploded around the world and all. That would make him the patsy. He was also framed for the cancers that developed in his companions as well.
If you are talking about my man's little stint in prison for killing Moloch?...Fine.
But for the whole story? No way.
Rorschach is cleary the hero, in my opinion.
Look at the end, Tuffy. His journal.

I love talking comics.

Rorschach is not the hero. As much as I love his character, Moore himself says he did not create Rorschach to be the hero of Watchmen but as a warning of vigilante thinking. You're right, Doc Manhattan isn't the hero either. So that makes Tuffy right that Rorschach is a patsy.

Who wins in the end? Who takes the fall?
Is there any "hero" there at all?

Also. Giant Space Squid FTW.

My teacher who is basically making are whole syllabus revolve around Watchmen asked Dave Gibbons to draw her the hero of Watchmen so there is a hero, just most likely not the character you would automatically think about when you think Watchmen. The hero does exist though.

So.

Gonna share?

It's Bernie the news vendor.

Real heroes don't wear costumes/masks.

He also dies horribly!

yeah he does.

So Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, and your teacher said that?
That's cute. Moore should have written the story about Bernie instead of The Watchmen, he didn't of course because masked heroes are far more interesting for comic books than maskless newspaper vendors.
Heroes don't wear masks
This was like ending a long built up joke with a pun.

Mr. Moore is also a notorious jerkoff.
“Will the film even be coming out? There are these legal problems now, which I find wonderfully ironic. Perhaps it’s been cursed from afar, from England. And I can tell you that I will also be spitting venom all over it for months to come.”

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2008/09/18/alan-moore-on-w/

More Moore.

He writes funnybooks and thinks he's an artist.

This discussion is getting kooky, even for the internet.

Wow you really missed the point of Watchmen all together. Watchmen is literally a comic book about comic books. In fact the Watchmen is anti-superhero showing why superheroes shouldn't exist in the real world.

Jon Osterman's accident turning him into Doc Manhattan leads to his isolation from humanity.

Walter Kovacs childhood trauma transforms him into a vigilante sociopath.

Dan Dreiberg can only get it up when he's wearing a costume.

Also the Minute Men represent the Golden Age of comics is the wave that followed Superman.

The Crimebusters represent the Silver Age of comics when accidental/cosmic heroes like Spider Man enter the comic world.

Short history of how Watchmen was created:

Moore was given a set of superheroes and he was supposed to write a series to get those superheroes back in the comic book market. But his idea for these characters would have completely did the opposite of what DC comics intended for these characters so they told him to design his own set of characters.

Peacemaker=Comedian
Thunderbolt=Ozymandias
Question=Rorschach
BlueBeetle=NiteOwl
NightShade=SilkSpectre
CaptainAtom=Dr.Manhattan

There is also a shit ton of symbolism and inside jokes throughout Watchmen. You can't just read Watchmen once and take all of what Moore throws out there.

Also Chapter or Issue V: Fearful Symmetry just goes to show Moore wasn't fucking around. To say he is a notorious jerkoff...sure, but to deny that he is one freaky artist/writer genius well then i'll leave you with this special Watchmen facepalm.

audreythirteen, I like you so don't misunderstand my saying what I'm about to say, I think you're groovy...I actually think you are one of the more interesting people around here...

YOU SAID
****I have to write an argumentative essay on my definition of what a hero is and I'm having a little trouble organizing my thoughts. I have my definition down I just don't know where to take it.*************

.......I would guess this was a homework type assignment or a workshop assignmest for a school. That's fine.... very cool stuff. Good luck with it.

YOU THEN SAID....
****My teacher who is basically making are whole syllabus revolve around Watchmen asked Dave Gibbons to draw her the hero of Watchmen so there is a hero, just most likely not the character you would automatically think about when you think Watchmen. The hero does exist though.****

You told us what your teacher said, and although I appreciate that he got his info from Gibbons, ole schmuck-face (the teacher)should realize that you have your own ideas about art and how you will interpret it, and my ideas are not wrong because they differ from the creator of the art, or the guy teaching a class about the art.

YOU ALSO SAID:
****Wow you really missed the point of Watchmen all together.****
and
****Short history of how Watchmen was created:

Moore was given a set of superheroes and he was supposed to write a series to get those superheroes back in the comic book market. But his idea for these characters would have completely did the opposite of what DC comics intended for these characters so they told him to design his own set of characters.****

You only know that stuff because you had access to the internet and a teacher that was privy to some knowledge from Dave Gibbons. And the backstory of Watchmen? The origin you wrote of? What Moore said?
You didn't know that shit organically.... you didn't hatch it of your own intuition... someone taught you it or you found out the backstory of how Watchmen was created. So you missed it right along with the rest of us because until the backstory was known to everyone... we all just read the story and developed their own ideas about it. My copy of Watchmen didn't come with cliff notes, I was a kid that was into comics that found Watchmen on my own in the 80's. My comics weren't a part of a syllabus. They were hidden from my teachers sight in my school bag. So my ideas are concrete and meaningful to me, for me, in my own way. I didn't have the resources to tell me the true backstory. How would I have known what Moore was tasked to write by DC comics? At 11 years old in 1987?
I love it when people tell me what the story is really about because they have the backstory on how it was created. It's nice to know what inspired the artist, but I prefer to be inspired by the story like an eleven year old should be.

FINALlY YOU SAID:
****To say he is a notorious jerkoff...sure, but to deny that he is one freaky artist/writer genius well then i'll leave you with this special Watchmen facepalm.***

I didn't deny that he is a freaky artist or writer genius. When did I say that?
Face-palm me all you want
I love Moore... I just think he's a jerkoff. But, I think you're supercool.
And yeah maybe I did miss the whole point of Watchmen like you said but it's pretty clear that until someone told you the backstory ....you missed it too.

If you're required to know the personal inspirations of the artist to fully appreciate the art then I think your missing the point of being inspired by art. Especially if you try to use this knowledge to run me through, in a discussion about heroes.
One last thing.
Fighting crime has been my career for ten years.
Rorschach is the hero of Watchmen in my opinion.
I've answered all of your questions since post one.
Done.
FTW or whatever that means.

Of course I missed a lot of the back story the first time I read it. It's hard to not figure out the parallels within the panels,visually, in the words, the story lines that all overlap and intertwine that is obviously sending a distinct message. Having all this thrown in my face and having to do homework assignments around that mess left me not even wanting to look at Watchmen for a while. Sure I didn't come to all those conclusions myself but I think it's important, aside from interesting, knowing the background of why a masterpiece like the Watchmen is created.

I like how you say you aren't wrong because your view of the comic differs from the creator of art because that is exactly what my current research paper is about. Shitty enough it's another research paper based on Watchmen but it should be interesting since I get to make my own argument about Watchmen now.

Although I do think it is important to know the background of a piece or art to know why it's showing you a certain form or what that arrangement of words is really trying to say. Although it takes away from our individual perspective of how we would like to view something in particular it definitely gives us deeper understanding of the work of art's purpose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg

This is by a psychologist, about the definition of good and evil in the world. I hope this is interesting, theres also a part in there about a man who saved someones life. 18:55 is where it is relevant for you specifically.

Bump.

Seriously though, Bernie?

Actually Jaz bumped this because I say that it's Ozy. Even though he killed thousands of people - he saved billions. He stopped a nuclear war and gave us a "fresh" start. Even Manhattan agreed with him.

I'm still uncomfortable with if I agree with the justification or not.

You're forgetting that Rorschach's Journal is now in the hands of The New Frontiersman which is going to expose Ozy's plan, thus reversing all that work he went through to have world peace.

If you pay attention to each of the Watchmen you'll realize none of them are real heroes.

Let's start with Nite Owl. Why is he a hero? He has plenty of money, loves gadgets, and when it comes to getting laid he can't even get it up unless he's wearing a stupid costume.

Silk Spectre is only a crime fighter because she's carrying on her mom's legacy.

The Comedian uses his standing to even commit crimes for the president, kills his lover in vietnam, rapes his fellow crime fighter, need I say anymore?

Doc Manhattan is the first superhero being altered in some crazy atomic blast, turning him into this god like being yet he continues to be a pushover doing whatever he is told to do. Throughout watchmen, after he becomes Doc Manhattan, he struggles with having sympathy for humans. The Comedian even calls him out on his indifference when Doc just stands there and watches him kill his pregnant lover.

And best for last, my favorite, Rorschach. Rorschach is the psychotic vigilante. How can this nutcase be a hero? He's barely even human anymore and lacks any sympathy for humans, all he cares about is justice being served even if it means that world peace will be destroyed with the truth.

None of these people are very heroic at all.

Here's another example: In our country cops and firefighters are considered heroic but isn't it there job to do the things they do? Aren't they getting paid to protect and serve? Sure a cop or firefighter can be heroic when the moment presents itself but do we call all of them heroic because they are just doing their job?

Also how can you think a guy who kills millions because he gets a hard on for being the smartest, richest, most successful man on the planet? His plan by creating world peace was also going to promote his new marketing plan.

I also suggest reading the parallels in The Black Freighter to find out why none of the Watchmen are heroes. Only if you can figure out which Watchmen the Mariner is actually mirroring.