Yassar Arafat 1929 - 2004

So if Trailfodder can see it, why can't everyone in the middle east? Faith and strong beliefs don't always go hand in hand with good decisions. For the past couple thousand years of human history, they've been at polar opposites. Everyone has invaded Jerusalem at some point. Jews, Muslims, Rome. Remeber the Crusades? What a lovely point in history that was. It's a wonder there's any Jerusalem left invade.

Really great posts from rkdaley and joeyjojojrshabadoo. You guys are changing my opinnions of americans, so thanks for that.

I must say that I didn't first want to read this thread, because I thought it would be the same propaganda that the american goverment and news spreads. Sorry about generalizing you guys.

You have touch pretty much all the subjects that is needed to have conversation about this, and I agree with you fully. Here's some other thoughts that I have:

About Arafat, he was the glue that kept the palestinians together in good and bad. Without him, there will be a powerstrugle, maybe even a war between different palestinian political grups. It will be a chaos. A lot of people will die. But maybe, like with the phoenix bird, something new will be born. New ideas. New beliefs.

Israel got a rid off their nemesis. Now they have no excuses not to start the negotiations again. I want to say that I understand their anger and grief, but that would be arrogant. Nobody can understand what it feels like living under constant terrorist scare. But they must be the "bigger person" here. They are the ones, who has to realise that you don't bring peace and understanding with walls and guns. They have the money and power to open this knot. Sure, it means they have to trust palestinians, but a litle leap of fate could be the first step to peace.

U.S. needs to back off! We all know that the goverment can't afford to be impartial on this. It's okay to help your buddy in trouble, but someone already stated in some other thread U.S. is the biggest country in the world. Everything U.S. does has effect on the rest of the world. U.S. must play the role of the father, and not take sides when the kids fight. So, let the U.N. lead the negotiations.

Fact of the matter is we(the world) would be closer to peace in the middle east, if we(the united states) would quit financing and signing treaties with Israel. Also if we(the US) would spend this money, we are spending on the war and giving corporations $136 BILLION tax cuts, on alternative energy sources instead of the measley(in comparison) $7 billion they currently spend. If we(the world) got over our dependance on oil all of the Middle East's currency and power would shrivel up and die.

[QUOTE=Ioota Rhoo]Really great posts from rkdaley and joeyjojojrshabadoo. You guys are changing my opinnions of americans, so thanks for that.

I must say that I didn't first want to read this thread, because I thought it would be the same propaganda that the american goverment and news spreads. Sorry about generalizing you guys.

You have touch pretty much all the subjects that is needed to have conversation about this, and I agree with you fully. Here's some other thoughts that I have:

About Arafat, he was the glue that kept the palestinians together in good and bad. Without him, there will be a powerstrugle, maybe even a war between different palestinian political grups. It will be a chaos. A lot of people will die. But maybe, like with the phoenix bird, something new will be born. New ideas. New beliefs.

Israel got a rid off their nemesis. Now they have no excuses not to start the negotiations again. I want to say that I understand their anger and grief, but that would be arrogant. Nobody can understand what it feels like living under constant terrorist scare. But they must be the "bigger person" here. They are the ones, who has to realise that you don't bring peace and understanding with walls and guns. They have the money and power to open this knot. Sure, it means they have to trust palestinians, but a litle leap of fate could be the first step to peace.

U.S. needs to back off! We all know that the goverment can't afford to be impartial on this. It's okay to help your buddy in trouble, but someone already stated in some other thread U.S. is the biggest country in the world. Everything U.S. does has effect on the rest of the world. U.S. must play the role of the father, and not take sides when the kids fight. So, let the U.N. lead the negotiations.[/QUOTE]

Nice post there ^^^

I started this thread to discuss "what now"
Now that Arafat is gone. I am glad that there has been some discussion about history of the region.

Arafat WAS blocking the peace in Israel. If for nothing else, just for the fact that Sharon's government wouldn't deal with him and the Palestinan's wouldn't deal without him.

Now the Palestinians have Ahmed Qurei as Prime Minister (a man who was behind the Oslo Agreement) and Mahmoud Abbas, now head of the PLO (a well respected man in arab politics, although discredited by western media).
These men have, can and will deal with Sharon's government in Israel.

I keep refering to the government in Israel as "Sharon's Government" because Israel's political system is set up on a "majority rules" type system. If you can get the most people to back you, you are in control. It's not a "people vote" type of thing such as the US Congress. Opposition in the Knesset (Israeli Parliment) has held a few (I think 3) votes of no confidence to overthrow Sharon's majority. He has barley fended them off. That is why he has had to make decisions such as; pull out of the gaza strip, and include this settlement with in the security barrier, but not that settlement and other seeminly contradictory actions.

We would think that with the passing of Arafat, there would be a passing of the torch, so to speak as to who's in control of the PLO. Qurei and Abbas are old school. As old school as it gets. Some people (the US Government for one) don;t like the idea. They say they are just as bad as Arafat, that the PLO is corrupt. Well, that may be true but, I want someone in there that knows what the fuck is going on and won't get fucked by the master politicians on the Israeli side. It's just like here in the US. I don't want an "outsider" to be president, fuck know, I want someone with some knowledge, I want the guy with the JU-i.c.e., someone who can get things done. Is Abbas that man? Willhe become inconsequencial like his predicessor?

I will stop know. Well, for a few minutes at least.

RK Daley

Rkdaley you consistently are making a lot of sense here. Give yourself a congratulatory Twinkie cause you've nailed it again. What I want to know, is who picks who gets the fucking Nobel Peace Prize? Yasser Arafat won this prize, for reasons unknown to me. It's not like he promoted peace, he promoted a self sustaining, low simmering war with no hope of peace in his lifetime. The new leader of Palestine will only last as long as the U.S lets him. President Bush was quoted today saying, that he will use America's Capitol (Military or financial?) to bring a Democracy to Palestine, and if neccesary hold the Palestinian people's feet to the fire. Am I the only one who understands that Palestine does not want the "help" of the U.S for anything right now? As rk said above, even Isreal is not a democracy. Sharon was not elected democratically, maybe Bush should start bringing Democracy to his allied before his forces it down the throats of his enemies.

[QUOTE=bassplr19]Fact of the matter is we(the world) would be closer to peace in the middle east, if we(the united states) would quit financing and signing treaties with Israel. Also if we(the US) would spend this money, we are spending on the war and giving corporations $136 BILLION tax cuts, on alternative energy sources instead of the measley(in comparison) $7 billion they currently spend. If we(the world) got over our dependance on oil all of the Middle East's currency and power would shrivel up and die.[/QUOTE]

It's not the treaties, but it is the financing. NOt directly though. The US guarantees loans from the world bank for Israel. Billions upon billions of dollars worth of loans.. If the US didn't do that they would go bankrupt. The economy is in shambles there. Totally fucked up, county wide strikes. The government employees not getting paid. It's bad. Real bad.

Israel used to help the US fight communism in the region. This was the main reason we became allies with them. Many of those arab countries were being supported militarily by Russia. The US couln't allow a communist foothold in the region or for Russia to take over the oil wells. They used Israel to counter and fight that foothold in the region. Where the US couldn't go in and train a country's military, say the Apartied government of South Africa, The US would pay Isreal to go in a train for them. Or to sell weapons through Israel to countries the US couldn't. In return Israel got access to ALL of the military weapons and technology that the US has. Which pissed off hte neighbors. Because they were using piece of shit russian slingshot and all of a sudden Israel has Abrams M-1 Tanks Apache helocopters and M-16's, along with all the supporting technology needed to run a kick ass army. There's is the 3rd largest in the world! Really? yep! The balance of power changed in the region because the US of A gave Israel everything they had militarily and gave nothing to the neighbors. This is the support of Israel that the wacko fucks that attacked us are talking about. This is what changed thier neighborhood.

phew...I get worked up sometimes about all this.

"Excuse me Mr Isreali. I was just wondering where you got those missiles you're firing at me."

"Oh these are American missile."

"I see, and where did you get that helicopter and all those jets"

"American as well."

"Ok, then. I guess I have to hate America now too."

"Excuse me Mr. Palestinian, where did you get that Assault Rifle your firing at me?"

"It's a Saudi rifle."

"I see, I guess I have to hate Saudi Arabia too."

If America and Saudi oil barons are financing both sides, who is really at war here?

"The president pledged to mobilize the international community to help revive the Palestinian economy, build up security institutions to fight terror, help the government fight corruption and overhaul the Palestinian political system and build democratic institutions."

How about doing some of those things in America, you stupid fuck!

When asked about the crisis in Africa, Bush responded, "what, those niggers?"

He also called Palestine the "most pressing political challenge in the world today." I guess North Korea's and Iran's nukes can wait.

RKD, thanks for the good analysis. Very informative and precise.
Unfortunately we're all at the same point, waiting for something to come up.
I read somewhere that the USA were financing Egypt for sums amounting to about 2/3 of the US support to Israel. Is it true ?

[QUOTE=Trail Fodder]"The president pledged to mobilize the international community to help revive the Palestinian economy, build up security institutions to fight terror, help the government fight corruption and overhaul the Palestinian political system and build democratic institutions."

How about doing some of those things in America, you stupid fuck![/QUOTE]

Thanks for the laughs!

Political crises? Palestine has a leader ready to take the reigns. What about the friggin Chinese sub off the coast of Japan. That sounds like a political crises. The Palestinian people will not accept the intervention of the United States at this point in time. They the United States as those funder their aggressors and thereby not to betrusted. I can't honestly say I disagree. But, the suicide bombers, we have to stop them right? yes, we also need to stop Isreali State sanctioned assassinations. this is not a readily solvable problem, but the President believes he can wrap it up in three years. If Arafat hadn't of died who knows how long it would have taken? Maybeten? I see the President becoming frustrated with diplomacy. "Hold their feet to fire", President George W. Bush. that's a quote right there.

[QUOTE=franc tireur]RKD, thanks for the good analysis. Very informative and precise.
Unfortunately we're all at the same point, waiting for something to come up.
I read somewhere that the USA were financing Egypt for sums amounting to about 2/3 of the US support to Israel. Is it true ?[/QUOTE]

Yes

The three largest receipients of US foriegn aid $

3Bil Israel - because we love them
1.8 Bil Egypt - so they won't shoot at Israel
1.4 Bil Columbia - for all the drugs duh!

i am double checking those numbers with the US gov's web site.

here's some fun numbers if you like math..

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

From [url]www.wrmea.com[/url] the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

A THIRD, a fucking thrird of all of the US's foriegn aid money goes to the state of Israel. That's a huge percentage. I am not suggesting cutting aid to Israel. I think taht would be disasterous. Maybe just spread the wealth a bit.

Oh, our President, the guy that used to live in the house here in downtown Austin. He's just doing what they tell him. He is part of a machine. You have to look at what's pushing him. Family business and old loyalties to the Walker's. Read American Dynasty by Kevin Phillips. Or even easier...go to NPR.org and listen to the interview with him on Fresh Air. Afterwards you won't be so mad at Baby George. He's just going along with the program.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]A THIRD, a fucking thrird of all of the US's foriegn aid money goes to the state of Israel. That's a huge percentage. I am not suggesting cutting aid to Israel. I think taht would be disasterous. Maybe just spread the wealth a bit.

Oh, our President, the guy that used to live in the house here in downtown Austin. He's just doing what they tell him. He is part of a machine. You have to look at what's pushing him. Family business and old loyalties to the Walker's. Read American Dynasty by Kevin Phillips. Or even easier...go to NPR.org and listen to the interview with him on Fresh Air. Afterwards you won't be so mad at Baby George. He's just going along with the program.[/QUOTE]
I hope georgge manages to keep his head on his shoulders till his terms up. Dear lord, if he were assassinated who knows what would happen. Martial Law? Creepy. Oops, that had nothing to with Arafat or Middle East

This has really turned out to be a nice thread. Much more thoughtful participation than I imagined there would be.

Atta boy everyone.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]This has really turned out to be a nice thread. Much more thoughtful participation than I imagined there would be.

Atta boy everyone.[/QUOTE]
While can't lay claim to knowing everything on this subject, I will talk about anything. (Much to the chagrin of some). Of all things said about Arafat I believe this to be true. While alive, no one believed more strongly in a Palestinian state, but the terms were never to his liking. the word freedom fighter has unfortunatly got mixed in with terrorist. I don't think they are the same. I think Arafat was a freedom fighter.

So you're full of opinions, aren't you ?

[QUOTE=franc tireur]So you're full of opinions, aren't you ?[/QUOTE]
Opinions. Facts(few and far between), extrapolations, best guesses, observations. I thought that was the whole of being here. The main problem is that I am very lazy, most of my opinions are based on facts reliable sources, I'm just to lazy to post them. Thank god we got someone like RKD to post the sources and the facts.

[QUOTE=Trail Fodder]1. It's pretty naive to say all this began after WWII. This conflict has been going on for thousands of years. Jerusalem has been invaded and conquered, and re-invaded and re-conquered countless times. You can't go back to any point in history and say "see, THIS is who it belongs to." It's just not possible. At some point in history, just about any sect of religion that has ever existed at one time occupied this area and denied access to all others. [/QUOTE]

I didn't mean to imply it began at the end of WWII, that's just when Zionism reached violent fruition in the foundation of a Nation by blitzkrieg tactics. 750,000 Palestinians were displaced in an amazingly compact period of time, which created the modern problem.

It's even more naive to say it 'has been going on for thousands of years.' That's a cop-out that denies the essential fact that Zionism is a 19th Century European/American notion, not some ancient rite. As I pointed out, the vast majority of the Jews who settled in Palestine starting in the late 19th Century, accellerating during the British Madate, and finally flooding at the end of WWII, are not even Semitic people, but unassimilated Jews of various regions of Europe and their American immigrant relations. Even today, a huge number of Israeli citizens hold dual citizenship with the U.S.

Added to the disgusting amount of foreign aid we shed on Israel, the dual citizenship of so many Israelis makes Israel closer to being the 51st state than Puerto Rico is. We go way cheaper with P.R., and no one is fighting us for it (except a handful of Puerto Rican nationalists).

For that matter, Hawaii at the onset of WWII, while a U.S. Territory, did not have nearly as close a tie to Washington D.C. as Tel Aviv does today.

[QUOTE=Trail Fodder]
2. this isn't just LAND. it's holy land. Holy to many religions. So nobody can just give it up and move to Nevada. I think the best thing is to make jerusalem an independent, non-military state, open to all. But that is pretty much impossible too. There is no easy solution.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say there was an easy solution, and my Nevada suggestion is my own 'Modest Proposal' for how to deal with the issue. It has numerous advantages over Palestine as an Israeli homeland: Europeans and small pox wiped out most of the natives who could make a claim to Nevada over a century ago, so they won't need so many tanks and helicopter gunships. It has no predominantly Muslim neighbors, and as oddball as Mormons are, they don't have a big track record of wrapping themselves in dynamite before boarding a bus. There's gambling and prostitution that the Israeli Nevada could tax for its revenue needs, so we could direct all that foreign aid to such benevolent powers as China.

It's a joke, but seriously, if Jews want some stolen land to form a theocracy, where better to get it than the U.S. which has a huge amount of stolen land that isn't even being lived on.

If you're going to take religious claims on the land seriously, you'd just have to depopulate the entire area of Palestine and let everyone make pilgrimages to the joint. Put the atheists in charge of it, it'll give them something to do besides fuck with the Pledge of Allegiance, public schools, and courthouses.

In the meantime, the children of all those displaced Palestinians are living in conditions worse than you could find in the worst neighborhoods of LA, Boston, Chicago or the Bronx, under rule that makes China look liberal, and there's a [I]lot[/I] of them. What they mainly want is one of the only pieces of Middle East real estate that doesn't have oil. Give Israeli citizens who don't already have one a U.S. visa, an airplane ticket, and pull the plug on the foreign aid.

This suggestion is all well and good, as long as it's not my house that gets bulldozed. So a few posts ago Franc was questioning my the factualness of my statements. O.k here are some facts. Despite the opposition of Hamas, Arafat signed Oslo accord which gave none of the occupied territories back to Palestine, but appeased the United States (granted, maybe for selfish reasons). The Isreali government as state sponsored assisination of palestinian leaders including firing missiles into Arafat's PLO compund. Mr Rabin was assassinated not by a Palestinian, or Hamas attack, but by an Isreali fanatic, although Hamas killed an Isreali cabinet minister. Those are facts as far as i know.

So did he achieve anything? He is a part of the Palestinian identity, if that amounts to anything.

Speculation abounds that Arafat died of AIDS
World Net Daily
"Israel has been investigating the possibility the late PLO leader Yasser Arafat died of AIDS... Arafat's official cause of death has not been released by the Paris hospital in which he was treated because French law prohibits distribution of medical records to anyone other than immediate family. Arafat's widow, Suha, refuses to divulge any details of his illness... While Arafat was sick, some publicly speculated he was dying of AIDS. The homosexual site 365Gay.com, which deals regularly with issues related to HIV/AIDS, ran a piece reminding readers that, for several years, it has been suggested Arafat is bisexual, and could have contracted the disease... National Review diarist David Frum suggested in a column Arafat contracted AIDS from homosexual sex with his bodyguards."

I haven't heard that before, but shit, he was locked up for a while there..He kind of looks faggy in his younger pictures. I mean really, he does.

I think that IV drug use could be a factor as well. poor sterilization and general infection control proceedures in the territories are lacking.

Some jackasses in Israel trying to discredit Arafat postumously could be what is going on here as well.
"Israel has been investigating... " When ever I see that line I ask this - The government of Israel, an Israeli citizen or an Israeli company? These are very different things. If IBM is looking into something that doesn't mean that the US is looking into it, and if the US goverment is doing something it doesn't mean that every citizen is doing it. The media, especially the anti-Israeli media, tends to cast everything that happens in Israel as "the doings of the government"
Many bad things have and will be said of Chairman Arafat. Most of them will be true.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]

Some jackasses in Israel trying to discredit Arafat postumously could be what is going on here as well.
.[/QUOTE]

my thoughts exactly! I'm sure Arafat has banged his share if concubines..coulda gotten AIDS from them if he really had it....

This is what Arafat died from....
Being locked in a fucking box surrounded by tanks and people with guns for 2 and half years after having his dreams and life goals crushed.
That's what killed him.
Well, that and death.