Yassar Arafat 1929 - 2004

it happens.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Yassar Arafat, the leader of the Palestinian people, a man who spent his life trying to create a homeland for his people, has died. Living in exile, hunted for the tactics he used, confined for the last few years to a compound that was surrounded by the Israeli Defense Force is dead at 75. He was the face of the Palestinian struggle. The short guy with the black and white checkered scarf around his head, the guy that has been a thorn in the side of Israel for 40 years, the guy you saw on T.V. denouncing suicide bombings in English, but not in Arabic.

The Israeli government has branded him a terrorist (the Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharron, admits that he himself was once a terrorist and killed British soldiers in his autobiography “Warrior Politician”) Israeli politicians call Arafat “a roadblock to peace” and declared that he was the number one reason there is no peace in the Holy land today.

Well, he’s dead now, no more “roadblock”. What will happen now?

Will the new PLO leadership sit down with the Israeli government and cut the deal Arafat had “blocked” for all these years?

Will the powers that be in Israeli claim that the new Palestinian leadership cannot be dealt with? As they have in the past?

Will a radical group take over the West Bank and Gaza forcing the IDF to move in even deeper?

Will the Palestinian people have a homeland? Will the Israelis have the Jewish State they desire?

The United States gives $3,000,000,000 a year to Israel. That’s billion dollars. 80% of it in military grants that Israel doesn’t have to pay pack. Israel has never paid any money back to the U.S. all loans to them have been forgiven before they have come due. What could your community do with just a portion of that money? A ton of that money goes to defending the citizens of Israel from suicide bombers and other horrible acts of terrorism. Think 9/11 was bad? Try not knowing if the coffeehouse you’re sitting in is going to get blown up today, or the bus you’re on is going to be destroyed before you can get off. This is everydaylife, all the time.

Try having a wall built around your town, with armed soldiers on it pointing M-16 rifles at you and not being able to get out. Try having your 15-minute walk to school turn into a 3-hour ordeal with two check points to go through. Check points where you get searched and felt up by men at gunpoint and you’re only a 13-year-old girl.

This is a historic moment in the region. Change will happen.

Will it be one state, two states?

Are these people stuck in an endless cycle of murder?

What do you think?

- RK Daley[/QUOTE]
some people might have a bone to pick with this characterization... i'm just sayin...

I don't want to disrespect a man that's not even cold yet but... shouldn't we kind of seen this one coming? People get old and die, people who are freedom fighters and politically controversial die... young. Isreal has been trying to kill the dude for years. People are acting shocked. I will definetly have a drink for the man tonight. Maybe now he can get some much needed rest.

oh, and it's "yasser." with an e.

He not dead, he's just resting. Wonderful plumage the Norwegian Blue.

[QUOTE=vidalia]oh, and it's "yasser." with an e.[/QUOTE]

Both spellings are accepted.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Both spellings are accepted.[/QUOTE]
i'm defaulting to the associated press preference, but then again the times calls him yasir.

well, if the worst conflict that comes of his death is the spelling of his name, we're in pretty good shape.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Both spellings are accepted.[/QUOTE]
This thread is a sad testament about just how little North Americans know about the Middle East. An incredibly important world has just died and the best discussion we can up with is the correct spelling of his name

[QUOTE=joeyjojojrshabadoo]This thread is a sad testament about just how little North Americans know about the Middle East. An incredibly important world has just died and the best discussion we can up with is the correct spelling of his name[/QUOTE]

Here is your chance.
And we're just getting warmed up. This is a touchy subject for a a lot of people and jumping right into it can sometimes cause emotions to get in the way of open discussion.

[QUOTE=vidalia]some people might have a bone to pick with this characterization... i'm just sayin...[/QUOTE]

The characterization of Arafat? Or of the peoples day to day situation.

You say "some people." Which people? You?

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Here is your chance.
And we're just getting warmed up. This is a touchy subject for a a lot of people and jumping right into it can sometimes cause emotions to get in the way of open discussion.[/QUOTE]
Wait, you mean people actually read these posts? (sorry sarcasm is a bad habit that I fall into, no offense intended) My main problem with the general apathy about Palestine and Isreal means that people only tend to get their info from one source. They turn objective opinion into dogma. So now Arafat is dead and anyone who wants to know about him and his life can find outt all they need to know from CNN. Al Jazeera? Nah, they're too biased. Cnn has monopoly on unbiased journalism. I don't know all that much about Arafat, but I do know that Egypt, Syria,and Lebanon all offered to invade Isreal on Palestine's behalf and Arafat turned them down. Of all the footage I've ever seen of this man, he showing the peace sign. Unless the peace sign is now secret terrorist hand signal.

You are correct about the one source. Shit, just ask anyone from Europe that's in the united states visiting what they thik of our news and they are likely to compare it to Russia. (Meaning tainted goverment propaganda, not hot chicks with vodka and furry hats)

yes, Arafat's famous peace sign. His famous line is something like "I have a rifle in one hand and an olive branch in the other, don't knock the olive branch out of my hand"

There are several sources online for quality information on this subject. My website has links to some of them. [URL=http://www.webstrikerobert.8m.com]Webstrike Robert[/URL]

Haaretz is great. it's a liberal paper in Israel.
Arutz Sheva [url]www.Israelnn.com[/url] is a hardcore conservative, for lack of a better word paper.

I think that Arafat was two faced. He smiled and professed his desire for peace, but he held a loaded rifle and when shots were fired from it, he just smiled and denied he had anything to do with it.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]The characterization of Arafat? Or of the peoples day to day situation.

You say "some people." Which people? You?[/QUOTE]
israelis. jews.

i don't want to get involved, really. i don't want to be on the record anywhere having a position on this. maybe i shouldn't have said so in the first place... i'm just saying - it's a delicate situation and pleasing either side is... impossible. not to say we shouldn't discuss. we should. but i should probably remove myself. not because i'm a wuss - just for professional reasons.

I have no doubt that the dude was two faced. But I also don't believe the horrible situation the "holy" land is all his fault either. I never saw Arafat erecting walls around his country. Maybe we should go back and discover who fired the very first shot. does anyone remember? Do we have this guy's picture. People don't just arbitrarily strap bombs to themselves and detonate for no reason. The Palestinian people are fucking serious about what they want. The vast majority of Isrealies are more than happy to give it to them, but the government isn't listening. What else is new?

Professional reasons are not an excuse to bow out of a discussion. If you had the brass ones required to post on this topic then stick with it. I'd like to hear your opinion.

[QUOTE=joeyjojojrshabadoo]Professional reasons are not an excuse to bow out of a discussion. If you had the brass ones required to post on this topic then stick with it. I'd like to hear your opinion.[/QUOTE]
they are a reason to bow out. i respectfully disagree. this has nothing to do with balls. i made a mistake in entering, and i said so, and my reason is valid. we can have the debate privately, if you want.

[QUOTE=vidalia]they are a reason to bow out. i respectfully disagree. this has nothing to do with balls. i made a mistake in entering, and i said so, and my reason is valid. we can have the debate privately, if you want.[/QUOTE]
I'd love to have a private debate vidalia. I'm not saying it's a balls issue either. I am saying that it is never a mistake to make your opinion known. I am also unsure of what proffesional reason are, do you work for a foreign aid organization? Does your boss have strong opinions on this subject and you fear for your job? Please specify what the reason is (if you can), and I will totally back off on you. Strong opinions are important, if you got em, let em out.

Vidalia, please, don;t fuck your shit up for a stupid web site thread. hell delete your post or ask the mod to do it. Really...

It's difficult to talk about or critisize the gov. of Israel without having people say you are attacking the people or religion of Israel.

I think the current Government on the Palestinian and the Israeli side are stuck in old habits nad ancient vendettas which has caused them to lose touch with the people they represent.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]It's difficult to talk about or critisize the gov. of Israel without having people say you are attacking the people or religion of Israel.

I think the current Government on the Palestinian and the Israeli side are stuck in old habits nad ancient vendettas which has caused them to lose touch with the people they represent.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you there a hunner percent. There's no doubt as to the sensitivity of the topic. We already have one person who regrets posting on it. In one breath weare told that not every Middle Eastern person is a terrorist, then we are told that if we disagree with Isreal we are anti-semite. Well, I can't honestly say I am anti-semitic, but I can say that I am anti-stupid ass fucked political and religious situation that's been going on for way too long.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Vidalia, please, don;t fuck your shit up for a stupid web site thread. hell delete your post or ask the mod to do it. Really...[/QUOTE]
oh no, it's no big deal, i'm just saying, before i get all into it, i'm going to cool it now. no harm done. i'll keep reading, anyway.

[QUOTE=joeyjojojrshabadoo] I am anti-stupid ass fucked political and religious situation that's been going on for way too long.[/QUOTE]

-----I am anti-stupid ass fucked political and religious situation that's been going on for way too long.----

This would make a good button, a giant button, well, maybe a bumber sticker.

I have to turn over the computer to the kid. Game playing time and all. I will respond to this thread when I return in a few hours.

[QUOTE=vidalia]oh, and it's "yasser." with an e.[/QUOTE]
his name is probably not an english one so any characters of ours that represent it are purely phonetic. being pedantic is like stalling for more time. usually its pointless.

I have apologised in private to Vidalia, but I'll do it here as well. Sorry guys and gals. Apparently (insert shocked faces here), I did not have all the information neccesary to formulate an unbiased opinion. Opinions are inherently biased unfortunatly. One last thing before this totally out of control (wouldnt that be great), above Vidalia said this forum might offend Jews and Isrealies. True, toby True. I don't want to offend anyone Jewish, or Palestinian. I just think it's a little unfair that the general media coverage of the conflict is one sided. Why don't we ever see the Isreali government making aims at peace on t.v? Probably because no one in charge really wants peace there. No government Isreali or Palestinian is doing anything to promote peace. that's just my opinion, but I feel I'm right, or I wouldn't spout off about it.

[QUOTE=joeyjojojrshabadoo]I have no doubt that the dude was two faced. But I also don't believe the horrible situation the "holy" land is all his fault either. I never saw Arafat erecting walls around his country. Maybe we should go back and discover who fired the very first shot. does anyone remember? Do we have this guy's picture. People don't just arbitrarily strap bombs to themselves and detonate for no reason. The Palestinian people are fucking serious about what they want. The vast majority of Isrealies are more than happy to give it to them, but the government isn't listening. What else is new?[/QUOTE]
i think israel was reestablished after WWII. i'm not quite sure tho. i'm not much of a history man. i think it was then that the jews that moved there began to encroach on the palestinians. since israel was set up with the support of the US that's who our govt feels they have to support. plus the inhabitants of israel have more power than the palestinians do. i agree that its awful that so many arabs feel they have to kill people to get their point across but there was, at some point, a point. now i think that crisis is mostly just a device of the oil producing arab countries to manipulate oil prices. this probably again implicates americans because many of the oil wells in those countries are dug by american companies. god i wish i cared enough about this to cite specific references... i'm sort of just piecing together things that i've heard from various 'credible' US news sources during leisurely reading or TV watching. i'm certainly no activist so if you want verification, go ahead and look for it.

wow, for someone who claims to know nothing, you have a pretty good graps on things. A lot of countries are implicated in this conflict. Yes, the United States has to support Isreal, no question. But if your best buddy was about to do something really stupid, would give him the money and materials he needed to do it? Support is one thing, but financing assasinations is another. Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria also finance their "buddy's" poor decisions.

[QUOTE=joeyjojojrshabadoo]I have apologised in private to Vidalia, but I'll do it here as well. Sorry guys and gals. Apparently (insert shocked faces here), I did not have all the information neccesary to formulate an unbiased opinion. Opinions are inherently biased unfortunatly. One last thing before this totally out of control (wouldnt that be great), above Vidalia said this forum might offend Jews and Isrealies. True, toby True. I don't want to offend anyone Jewish, or Palestinian. I just think it's a little unfair that the general media coverage of the conflict is one sided. Why don't we ever see the Isreali government making aims at peace on t.v? Probably because no one in charge really wants peace there. No government Isreali or Palestinian is doing anything to promote peace. that's just my opinion, but I feel I'm right, or I wouldn't spout off about it.[/QUOTE]
wait, ok, i'm momentarily back for a clarification... what i meant to say, and only as a counterpoint, was that the initial post gave arafat some credit that i know some - israelis or other jews, even - don't agree with, b/c they just call him a terrorist.

what do you think they are going to do that's really stupid? do you think that they're trying to wipe out the palestinians? i'm really not sure what the goal is. there's probably too many people involved for the israeli government to have a single goal. cherone (or however you spell it... is he even still in power?) seems like he wants to eradicate the palestinians but then there might be someone working for him who's not a psychopath. its kind of ironic too in light of the holocaust. however, they certainly have to act against terrorism somehow. the major problem that i see is that there is a whole bunch of private interests now that pay to keep the palestinian terrorist organizations alive and kicking. i heard somewhere that hamas was using their resources to bring food to starving palestinians. this indicates to me that they (hamas, perhaps not all such organizations though) really do care about the palestinian people. but where does their funding come from? maybe the PLO, or aid money or something like that but my theory is that they are getting it from oil interests (indirectly or otherwise) in exchange for terrorism (which happens to drive up oil prices in the US). i think saddam hussein was one of the people funding this sort of thing. hell, that might even be part of the [B]real[/B] reason we went to war with him. of course there's the religious motivation on both sides but that's (probably) just a disguise for something more profitable (but also more dispicable). this is religion being used as a trick i think.

kind of off the topic... did you guys know that saddam hussein was storing the kind of explosives used to detonate nuclear bombs? not weapons of mass destruction by any stretch but the UN inspectors did find them and document them. kind of raises my eyebrow a bit.

Vidalia has it right. Don't go on the record. Most of my opinions are taken from quotes on the record from Isreali and Palestinian officials. They incriminate themselves when they speak. As far as detonating WMDs(off topic) The first nuclear was detonated using common dynomite. So yes, I am sure they found lots of explosives in Iraq.

i know that about dynamite but i don't think the explosive that they found was dynamite. i'm sure it has other uses besides detonating nuclear weapons whatever it was but in the context i'm still suspicious. maybe when i have time i'll actually try to get some details and maybe i'll start a thread on that.

Go for it. If they do find these threats in Iraq I'd be very suprised, but I can't shut the idea out altogether. I've said it once and I'll say it again. We need more information. Unbiased or not, it'd be better than the miserable scraps we are getting fed at this point.

yasser owned it

[QUOTE=shpongleyesd]i think israel was reestablished after WWII. i'm not quite sure tho. i'm not much of a history man. i think it was then that the jews that moved there began to encroach on the palestinians. since israel was set up with the support of the US that's who our govt feels they have to support. [/QUOTE]

This is the first time that the Jewish people have had a land of their own. So, it's not Re-establishing. This is the first time, that's one of the reasons it's so important to protect it. The British controlled the land in the 1940's and set up a partitioning sytem that divided the land between Palestinian (who were living in the region and Jews who were moving into the region from europe. It's called the "British Mandate". The United States was NOT a part of this. The US's support came later, after the Israeli's had set up a government.

The Israeli's rebeled against the British and took control of the land. Using terrorist means, such as the Hotel David incident where the hotel was bombed killing several British citizens. They had a few war's with surrounding countries. The 1967 war being the most important because that is the one where Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

This is where most Palestinians (except those in other countries, like Lebanon and Jordan) live.

The Palestinians call this region Occupied Territories, the Israelis call it Disputed Territories. Depends on how you look at it. International law sides with the "occupied" version.

RK makes a good point here. But, the reason this area is so hotly contested is due to the rather lenghty nature of human memory. No, the Jews did have an official state, or country, that was given to them after the WW2. No problems there. But what if they begin to expand? Man, I think the bible is one of the greatest works of exageration of all time, not fiction though. When the Jewish nation(not Jews, but later turned into Jews)l, first left egypt they wandered around in the desert for a long time. They grew to a population of millions. larger by far than any city in the middle east at the time. Then they found the promised land, flowing with milk and honey and proceeded to take it over in the name of their storm god Yaweh. Killing babies, men, women, even liviestock. This is pretty much genocide, but it's so far back in history a lot have forgotten it, but not the Palestinians who stemmed from those Caanaanites of old. This fight did not start in the recent past, it's fucking old, and no dumbass white dude from North America is stop it.

that's interesting but i think that the old fight and the new fight can hardly be connected in this way. its like christians getting mad at jews for crucifying jesus. fact is, that was 2000 fucking years ago if indeed it did happen. just like the conflict that you're connecting to the modern Pal-Isr one. if the modern conflict is revenge for something that happened so long ago then the palestinians are too primitive for this world and will be wiped out one way or another. unfortunately that means a lot of dead people, but not as many as if we went to war over every religious quarrel or 2000 year old grudge. i do think it was kind of irresponsible of whoever it was that setup the new israel to let all that heinous shit go on but i guess its too late now and a bunch of people that i would have never met or known will die now. this is why i have a hard time maintaining interest in this topic. i thank you all for the good info tho. now next time i casually talk about this i'll sound even more informed. little will they know that my knowledge on the subject is as thin as a playing card.

Well a lot of Christian still hold it against Jews that they "killed the Messiah". And your right, the countries that engage in it will slowly be subverted and destroyed by larger countries, like say, the United States. Israel's balancing act is not with Palestine, they could obliterate them whenever. Their balancing act is with their financers and world opinion. They are fight over "holy land". Why is it holy? Because respective Gods promised it to both sides a long time ago. Jerusalem has little economic value, but spiritual? through the roof, and worth fighting for

It is an old fight, but how far back in time can you go to claim land?
10, 20 1000 years?
Does America kick all the Europeans out and return the land to the Native Americans?
No, might makes right and established government make the rules.
results...looks bad for the Palestinians.

Off topic... or not?

Hitler and the Nazis killed some 6 million Jews, plus gypsys, homosexuals, mental patients, et cetera--Stalin killed some 30 million of his fellow Russians. And who was it sitting with Churchill and Roosevelt in pictures? Our OTHER WWII ally, least when Hitler turned on him and broke their Non-Aggression Pact?
Who the United States "supports" and/or "uses" has little to do with politics or human rights. It's economics. Money. Name a war, I'll name a major economic factor.
Where did Iraq's weapons--over a decade ago and recent--come from? What about the Taliban? And what country did Iraq--in the 1st Gulf quagmire--fire at with their American-made Scud missiles at the very outbreak of the war? Israel? Hmmm...

Bill Hicks: "We (the U.S.) are the bullies of the world. We arm all these little countries just to blow the shit out of them. We're like Jack Palance in the movie SHANE, throwing the gun at the sheepherders feet:

Pick up the gun.

I don't wanna pick up the gun, mister, you'll shoot me.

Pick up the gun.

I don't want no trouble, mister. I just came to town to get some hard-rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife... I don't even know what gingham is but she goes through about ten rolls a week of that stuff.

PICK UP THE GUN...

(...sound of wind...scared but slowly leaning... down...)

BANG! BANG! BANG!

YOU ALL SAW HIM! HE HAD A GUN!"

The Wicked Witch of the West, melting into a bad technicolor puddle:
"What a world! What a world! What a world..."

Off topic, or not?

Yup it does Rk, it looks real bad for the Palestinians. However, to a lot of other people, it looks real good. I imiagine that if all the Natives in American Canada Mexico South America etc all stood up and said they wanted their land back, things would get hairy, but it would look real bad for the Natives

[QUOTE=ralphthompsonxxx]Off topic... or not?

Hitler and the Nazis killed some 6 million Jews, plus gypsys, homosexuals, mental patients, et cetera--Stalin killed some 30 million of his fellow Russians. And who was it sitting with Churchill and Roosevelt in pictures? Our OTHER WWII ally, least when Hitler turned on him and broke their Non-Aggression Pact?
Who the United States "supports" and/or "uses" has little to do with politics or human rights. It's economics. Money. Name a war, I'll name a major economic factor.
Where did Iraq's weapons--over a decade ago and recent--come from? What about the Taliban? And what country did Iraq--in the 1st Gulf quagmire--fire at with their American-made Scud missiles at the very outbreak of the war? Israel? Hmmm...

Bill Hicks: "We (the U.S.) are the bullies of the world. We arm all these little countries just to blow the shit out of them. We're like Jack Palance in the movie SHANE, throwing the gun at the sheepherders feet:

Pick up the gun.

I don't wanna pick up the gun, mister, you'll shoot me.

Pick up the gun.

I don't want no trouble, mister. I just came to town to get some hard-rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife... I don't even know what gingham is but she goes through about ten rolls a week of that stuff.

PICK UP THE GUN...

(...sound of wind...scared but slowly leaning... down...)

BANG! BANG! BANG!

YOU ALL SAW HIM! HE HAD A GUN!"

The Wicked Witch of the West, melting into a bad technicolor puddle:
"What a world! What a world! What a world..."

Off topic, or not?[/QUOTE]

Off topic , yes, true yes,

Stalin was a fucker. I am currently reading "Stalin - The Court of the Red Tsar - by Simon Sebag Montefiore

It's gret so far, it starts after he is in power, after the death of Lenin. It is the first biography since the Kremlin opened thier files up. Very cool stuff

I'm going to go smoke that joint, and get back with you later... I was taking life seriously for a moment.

Obviously, rkdaley us an anti-Semite for starting this thread, suggesting that the PLO has a legitimate roll, or that there is even such a thing as 'Palestinian people.'

I'm kidding, but that's a pretty accurate assessment of the typical American response to this whole thing. Was Arafat a sociopathic personality? I don't doubt it. Was he fundamentally worse than Nelson Mandela, probably not.

Groups like the IRA, PLO, ANC, have always engaged in terrorism, and will continue to do so because it works.

As far as the extremely harsh rap the Palestinians get Stateside, our bipartisan, unquestioning support of the Zionist state has a LOT to do with that. 9/11 was a self-inflicted wound, when it comes right down to it--U.S. support of the Israeli terror apparatus is the #1 grievance for Al Queda to recruit on.

I'm not saying suicide bombings are right, I'm saying that when that shit happens, especially on a large scale or over a long period of time, you have to ask yourself what's got so many people that out of joint.

In fairness to Israel, with all that U.S. money coming in, what are they to think? They haven't done anything to the Palestinians that we didn't do to the Creeks, Seminoles, Cherokee, etc. There just happen to be a lot more Palestinians displaced by the establishment of Israel and the occupation of the Gaza and West Bank territories.

It's fraudulent to frame it in terms of anti-Semitism because the Palestinians are Semitic people and most of the white, European/American Jews that have migrated there in the past 60 years are not. It's also a little suspect to claim that the Zionist homeland was originally designed to be a little, religious refuge. The first land taken was the best agricultural land, and the Palestinians still control the Temple Mount. If it was about the Jewish religion, they would have gone for Jerusalem first, not waited 20 years and then illegally annexed it during a war for 'security' reasons.

Again, they're modeling American history though. Andrew Jackson didn't have the authority to annex Florida but the Congress didn't have the balls to fail to ratify his treaty with Spain. Not to mention the huge chunk of the Southwest we stole from Mexico, including the best agricultural land and all of the Colorado River watershed.

Oh, and if we hadn't been so pathetically sacked by the British in the War of 1812, we'd have taken Canada too. President Monroe said there was no difference between America and North America. Kind of like Ben Gurion's Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates, or Hitler's settlement of 20 million Aryan farmers (not that he HAD 20 million Aryan farmers to transplant, but technicalities...), in Central Europe.

Which is a long ways to go to say dont' look for peace to break out anytime soon. The world is better off without Arafat, and Sharon can go to hell with him, but as long as the U.S. props up an Apartheid system in Palestine, the suicide bombers will be coming.

Off topic? I don't know. Economic factors tend crop up like tumors in old wars. Rockefeller sold steel to Nazi Germany, so obviously someone thinks about the bottom line. God knows Isreal works as a military and economic foot hold for many countries over there in the East. It used to be milk and honey, god and country, now its shareholders, Ceo's and the almighty bottom line. How many people are getting rich off of war right now? well, at least it ain't me.....

Well said Chixulub,

You got me with that first line. hehe

"Groups like the IRA, PLO, ANC, have always engaged in terrorism, and will continue to do so because it works."

When the patriot act came along I was wondering what would happen if the IRA was targeted the way Hamas has been.

I think this is the opprotunity Sharon has been waiting for to take all of Palestine. He has said "There will be no Palestinian state west of the Jordan River"

I think it's going to get much worse in the region. Maybe escalating into surrounding Arab countries especially Syria, which the U.S. has repeatedly threatened.

that's true. its like nature. in fact it is nature in a weird way. whoever's method works best will prevail. that's what the israeli govt knows. they know that they can't just unleash their religious driven fury on the palestinians because the world will abandon them and they will never have any influence. that's why the palestinians are not getting anywhere. they can't seem to find a leader that understands that or maybe they don't want to find a leader that does. i can't understand why the palestinians don't relocate before they're completely wiped out. if they don't know that they can then that's fucking sad. if they're staying there for religious reasons then that's also sad but then again nature has selected them for extinction in that case. there is NO system of beliefs worth fighting/dying for. all SYSTEMS are impermanent. this is what religious fanatics don't realize. any system of beliefs will go through changes and things will get warped from their original 'purity' until we might find ourselves fighting people with whom we once agreed with. its just a sick way of thinking to say that one religion is more right than another because all of them are pure conjecture. Examples:

Q: how do we know if there's an afterlife tho?
A: we don't we guessed that there is because that's what we want to think.
or maybe...
A(2): there's two possible worlds we could go to: a good one (if we've been good boys and girls) or a bad one (if we're bad). i don't know about you but that sounds like fucking santa claus type shit to me. "you won't get any presents if you're bad" but then you leave the milk and cookies out for santa and all that's there in the morning is some stale cookies and a chunky glass of milk, neither of which are very useful.

Q: who/what created us?
A: we don't know. we never will. that's an absurd fucking question too given what we now know about the way life works. yes, its magnificent. yes, its complicated beyond our comprehension. but it doesn't require us to completely abandon rational thought to explain its origins anymore. or maybe...
A(2): some all powerful god that sees, knows and drives all. but then who created him/her/it? its like that argument for the earth resting on a turtle's back. when asked what was beneath the turtle the woman replied "its turtles all the way down". its funny, but sad at the same time.

Q: why did whatever created us create us?
A: another absurd question. any answer is both strictly religious and a guess. or maybe...
A(2): the all powerful being mentioned above created us in his image so that we could do his will. but then why can't he do his own will? isn't he all powerful? what the hell does he need with a bunch of impotent 'mini-hims'?

religion is just the manifestation of our limitations. our need to ask why and our inability to always have an answer. realizing that we are limited and coping with that is equivalent to religion. if you can do that without making up a bunch of nonsense then you've got one up on any religious system i guess.

sorry about the rant. probably doesn't belong here. something sparked when i read that part about how the spiritual value of israel. i guess what i'm saying is that following specific religious practices and being spiritual (i guess it depends on interpretation) are worlds apart. the former is a bunch of sound and fury that in the end accomplishes nothing. that is why i think countries that govern based on religious beliefs are slowly being whittled out of existence.

sorry guys... its too long... i gotta post it now... i can't very well delete it!

" i can't understand why the palestinians don't relocate"

Nobody want them. Syria and Jordan are full of refugee camps already. There are 1.3 million in the gaza strip alone.

This shit isn't about religion. It's about land. Least as far as Israel and Palestine goes. If it was about religion, I might could respect it.

And yep, bin Ladin is the Boogyman. He's the face of evil. He's Keyser Soze. And that's why WE HAVE LET HIM REMAIN FREE WHILE THE REST OF THIS POLITICO-ECONOMIC BULLSHIT IN IRAQ HAS BEEN OCCURRING. I've got a friend that left his eyeball in Iraq a few months ago. And from what he tells me, his goddam eye isn't seeing anything getting any better over there any time soon...

[QUOTE=rkdaley]" i can't understand why the palestinians don't relocate"

Nobody want them. Syria and Jordan are full of refugee camps already. There are 1.3 million in the gaza strip alone.[/QUOTE]
The Palestinians don't relocate for the same reason the Iriquois don't. Palestine is their home, it was invaded by some Europeans and taken by force at a point in history where there was a lot of sympathy for the Diaspora Jews.

My solution has long been that if you want a Jewish state in the dessert, let them have Nevada. The Palestinians can go back to being Palestinians, and the Jews can take lessons from the Mormons on how to run a theocratic state without being too bloodthirsty about it.

Of course the Mormons have their dark moments in history too, but who doesn't? We have a genocidal maniac on our $20 bill, but we couldn't wait to get Saddam of the Dinar.

1. It's pretty naive to say all this began after WWII. This conflict has been going on for thousands of years. Jerusalem has been invaded and conquered, and re-invaded and re-conquered countless times. You can't go back to any point in history and say "see, THIS is who it belongs to." It's just not possible. At some point in history, just about any sect of religion that has ever existed at one time occupied this area and denied access to all others.

2. this isn't just LAND. it's holy land. Holy to many religions. So nobody can just give it up and move to Nevada. I think the best thing is to make jerusalem an independent, non-military state, open to all. But that is pretty much impossible too. There is no easy solution.