US Invalidates Ukraine's election....cuz we're so big and powerful.

it's not just the US. the whole of the EU is behind this as well. the Ukraine is supposed to go along with the election review since they are a partner country in NATO, they have to conform to democratic standards.

this has nothing to do with our own elections, nor anything to do with powell, he's merely stating what the governments of most of the NATO countries are stating as well. it's a mere formality.

more info here:
[url]http://news.google.com/news?lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&ned=us&hl=en&ncl=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/24/international/europe/24cnd-ukra.html[/url]

Most of the information coming out of this whole thing sounds prety shady. Something big is gonna go down in Ukraine in the next few days. Should be fun to watch.

Verdict is in... They don't fucking care what EU or US says.

[url]http://www.freep.com/news/nw/ukraine25e_20041125.htm[/url]

It isn't just a case of what the EU and US says - remember that the party which has won fraudulently is backed by Moscow and that the leader of the pro-Nato opposition (which actually won according to all independent observers) may have been poisoned during the election... We aren't interfering any more than Russia is. Both parties are supported by different countries in the outside world - the only party which can claim to speak for the people of the Ukraine is the opposition party if it is proved that they actually won the election.

Besides which, the supreme court in the Ukraine has just suspended publication of the election result.

This thing is like an echo of the Cold War.

what i think is great about SOME countries in europe is they are willing to take it to the streets and DO something about it. the french farmers road blocking that one time, georgia republic getting rid of shevdnanze (sp?) , and the urkraine doing this. amerikans have a shady election (2000 and possibly 2004) and what do we do, we bitch, stuff our overfed faces, watch more tv and play more video games and NOTHING changes. it don't take the whole population to shut it all down. imagine 1/4 of the amerikan population doing a general population strike, blocking roads and government buildnings, and then changing popular opinion. imagine that. i love the french coining the word sabotage. they used to throw their wooden shoes, known as sabots, into the machinary to shut down work. amerikans are just to goddamn pathetically SOFT!

It's not that Americans have gone soft, it's that the majority of Americans have gone ignorant. We (generally speaking of course) no longer care about what is happening out side of our red, white and blue borders. excluding oil. Americans are like a teenager that's been placed as president of some company. We don't care what anybody else thinks, we just want to do things randomly. The scray thing is that we do have the power to do random devastating acts.

because the ukraine is such an important country right? cheez...

[QUOTE=big S]because the ukraine is such an important country right? cheez...[/QUOTE]
because they are still relatively new to democracy, this could be considered the beginnings of a country backsliding into communism.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]because they are still relatively new to democracy, this could be considered the beginnings of a country backsliding into communism.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, yeah, yeah and then we'd have to go to war again and slaughter the women and children and just one big mess after another... just start a democracy and give the US a fuckin break already.... fuckers.

let them be communists then. is that such a threat? i thought the cold war was over. this is bullshit.

[QUOTE=big S]let them be communists then. is that such a threat? i thought the cold war was over. this is bullshit.[/QUOTE]

yep. communists, terrorists, witches, jews, protestants, japs. we should just burn them all.

[QUOTE=big S]let them be communists then. is that such a threat? i thought the cold war was over. this is bullshit.[/QUOTE]
if you haven't noticed, democratic and communistic countries have always been at war with one another. there is a political reason for that. i merely was pointing out the reason that the US and EU are making their elections a big deal.

i personally wouldn't want to see another cold war, or even an active war, with the ukraine, it would be worse than before...

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]if you haven't noticed, democratic and communistic countries have always been at war with one another. there is a political reason for that.[/QUOTE]

eh? I thought it was more of an "arms race" type of thing in the cold war.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]if you haven't noticed, democratic and communistic countries have always been at war with one another. there is a political reason for that. i merely was pointing out the reason that the US and EU are making their elections a big deal.

i personally wouldn't want to see another cold war, or even an active war, with the ukraine, it would be worse than before...[/QUOTE]

Nobody has even hinted of any kind of a risk of any kind of a war with the Ukraine... the cold war reference was regarding its use as a pawn in a power struggle with Moscow - as was, for example, Afghanistan during the 1980s cold war with the CCCP.

"democratic and communistic countries have always been at war with one another"

really? that's a novel interpretation of political history...

"there is a political reason for that"

oh, okay then. (sarcasm)

[SIZE=1][I](I'm sorry for the several spelling errors in the following rant)[/I][/SIZE]

Okay, I just can’t read these posts anymore, without getting pissed off... Don’t you think you should find out about the things you’re talking about, before you start debating these issues.

You got all terms wrong and because of that your posts doesn’t make any sense.

You are mixing ideas (ruling system) and management (government type).

Government types:
Polyteia
Demokratia
Republic
Oligarkia
Aristokratia
Monarkia
Tyrannia

Ideas:
Liberalism
Conservatism
Sosialism
Totalitarism
Nationalism
Fasism
Anarkism
Fundamentalism
Capitalism

I’m not blaming you for not knowing the difference, since it seems even George W. Bush and Tony Blair has forgot, that their countries are not Democratic…

USA is federal republic which means that it’s ruled by elected representatives. It’s legislative branch is a bicameral congress which members are representatives from each state.

United Kingdom is constitutional monarchy which means that it is ruled by one, but the people’s freedom is protected by the law. It’s legislative branch is a bicameral parlament which members are elected by the people.

Republic = ”equalpower” = A parlament is representing the people. The law protecs their rights for freedom.

Democratic = ”People’s power” = Everything is decided by voting. The majoritys vote counts.

Democracy works only for small entitys, but not for nations.There are no nations, that would take the risk and let the majority make the decisions.

Now for the “ism”:s… Democratia by definition alone doesn’t approve liberalism, and that’s the base for the modern free world. You know, freedom of speech, etc.

Republic is the foundation of parlamentarism (government by discussion) and liberalism (the rights of the individual). A country were a family takes a vote and decides that the daughter must marry the neighbors son, is a democratic country, but not liberal.

Sosialism = The people have their own possessions and can practise capitalism, but the government supervises and controls the society by laws.

Communism = No higher power. The people own everything commonly. No church. No authorities. No Capitalism.

The Communists called their government the “People’s Democratic”, and they were equally right as the americans, that call their government “Sosial Democratic” or the Nazis who called their government “Organized Democratic”

Now the former Sovjet Union was State Sosialistic. Which means, that the goverment has monopoly on everything. Government controls everything.

So the Sovjet Union way was the opposite of Communism which as an idea is much closer to democratia, than for example USA’s federal republic is.

Actually, Ioota: What you describe as 'communism' (no higher power,no authorities) is what most people understand as anarchism (the political local-organisation sense rather than the 'mayhem' sense). You've used something close to the definition of anarchism (everthing organised and decided locally, without any higher national authority) to define communism... Anarchism being very close to the essence of democracy, but losing the notion of 'nationhood' along the way.

And is it useful to differentiate between the ideals of theoretical communism and the totalitarian regimes which it inevitably (apart, perhaps, from pre-civil-war Spain) leads to?

I'd say ioota is the only one here even who should even talk.

The rest of you are just as biased about your opinions as the sources you get your info from. but then again, for those of who subscribe to America bashing, rule #1 is make America sound terrible no matter what they're trying to accomplish, so props to all the rest of you.

so blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah I hate it here blah blah blah I'm so mad I'm american, all these freedoms suck blah blah blah

do I fit in yet?

sorry, just had to vent a bit..... carry on, I won't disrupt any more.

[QUOTE=gobo_fraggle_uk]Actually, Ioota: What you describe as 'communism' is what most people understand as anarchism. You've used something close to the definition of anarchism to define communism... Anarchism being very close to the essence of democracy, but losing the notion of 'nationhood' along the way. [/QUOTE]

See now we are getting somewhere…

Communism can be devided into three sub categories, all of them strives for the perfect freedom of state, church and capitalism, but with different means. Marxism is talkin about the working peoples revolution, Maoism about the farmers revolution and Anarcocommunism about uniting every individual to one common revolution.

Anarchism can be divided into two sub- categories, Anarcocapitalism and Anarcocommunism, both of them strives for the perfect freedom of state and church, but have a different take on capitalism.

So yes, and I thought I stated this already, democracy, anarchism and communism are all very close to each other. And also very far away from the Sosialliberalism you, me and most of the cultist are living in.

“democratic and communistic countries” that’s just words, that don’t mean anything. They have been symbols, with the intent to raise certain images. But as I stated alredy they have never represented the the truth about the countries they’ve been used about.

USA and EU aren’t getting involved in the Ukraine mess, because the country is sliding one way or another. They are getting involved, because there is a danger, that the unjust and illegal action of the government, might escalate the restlessness of the people into something much worse than riots, even civil war.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]I'd say ioota is the only one here even who should even talk.

The rest of you are just as biased about your opinions as the sources you get your info from. but then again, for those of who subscribe to America bashing, rule #1 is make America sound terrible no matter what they're trying to accomplish, so props to all the rest of you.

so blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah I hate it here blah blah blah I'm so mad I'm american, all these freedoms suck blah blah blah

do I fit in yet?

sorry, just had to vent a bit..... carry on, I won't disrupt any more.[/QUOTE]

and what exactly is america trying to accomplish?

I didn't hear anyone say America sucks. BUSH sucks. big difference. America is not perfect, and makes big mistakes, and we have a right to criticize them...unless you're a Republican, of course.

[QUOTE=Ioota Rhoo]

So yes, and I thought I stated this already, democracy, anarchism and communism are all very close to each other. And also very far away from the Sosialliberalism you, me and most of the cultist are living in.

“democratic and communistic countries” that’s just words, that don’t mean anything. They have been symbols, with the intent to raise certain images. But as I stated alredy they have never represented the the truth about the countries they’ve been used about.

.[/QUOTE]

Democracy is a form of government. Communism is a form of economy. You can't compare the two. The opposite of Communism is capitalism. The opposite of Democracy is tyranny. It's perfectly possible to have a democratic communist state. although the soviet union wasn't an example. On paper, communism looks real good: From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. If you're smart, you're a brain surgeon. If you're dumb, you're a street sweeper. If you're a street sweeper with 5 kids, you get $1,000 a week. If you're a surgeon with no kids, you get $250 a week.

Yes, almost right...

[QUOTE=Trail Fodder]Communism is a form of economy. The opposite of Communism is capitalism.[/QUOTE]

Communism is (maybe we have a language barrier here...) an management ideology, that embody everything, goverment, economy, religion, etc.

Capitalism a economy idealogy, and there fore can't be the opposite of Communism.

The opposite of communism is someform of a total Sosialism, like the State Sosialism, that the CCCP had.

Oh, and I don't think communism looks good even on paper...

getting past the semantics argument, and back to the main topic, the Ukraine elections.

as i said before, the US and the EU hold much stock in the Ukraine elections as they are representative of their move toward, and continued interest in democracy (term used as a generality, as it is the common term).

but does this matter now? hardly, the general sentiment in the Ukraine government is for an accurate election. the Ukraine Supreme Court is allowing the prime minister's legal team until tuesday to study the evidence of fraud. a reorganized presidential election may still happen.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]The general sentiment in the Ukraine government is for an accurate election. the Ukraine Supreme Court is allowing the prime minister's legal team until tuesday to study the evidence of fraud. a reorganized presidential election may still happen.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's seems, that they are heading for a new election. But they are in a hurry. The country is not strong enough to handle long term strikes. The people are poor and this uncertainty is litteraly killing them.

I don't see that there is anyway, that Primeminister Viktor Janukovitsh, can be the next president, even if he wins the re-elections. Then again the country will split if the out come is not favored by the eastern part of Ukraine.

I like watching stories about fucked up elections unfold. It's amazing what these people do in other countries that people in North America would even think about. Is the election of the American President not important enough to literally split the country? People in these countries take things in life seriously, I think we could learn a thing or two from them. If the guy who won the election used fraud or vote tampering, the people kick the fucker out of office. They try the polite way first, but if that doesn't work....

[QUOTE=Draco Delacroix]It's not that Americans have gone soft, it's that the majority of Americans have gone ignorant. We (generally speaking of course) no longer care about what is happening out side of our red, white and blue borders. excluding oil. Americans are like a teenager that's been placed as president of some company. We don't care what anybody else thinks, we just want to do things randomly. The scray thing is that we do have the power to do random devastating acts.[/QUOTE]
i see your point, but i'm thinking of how soooo many amerikans are disatisfied with bush and things, voted (49%) against him, know he was illegally elected the first time, and STILL just let things roll along. as long as the general amerikan population is satisfied with tv and and easily obtained food, they just don't give a shit and will just sit on their fat asses. hold it, let's let it happen anyway, maybe they'll explode.