The Netherlands and euthanasia

why kill something when you can poke it with needles, dissect it, take pictures of it and use it to further your own selfish addiction to knowledge.
if we can do it to animals, we can do it to children.

im also changing my one time adamant (orwtf) stance on abortion

i say put the brainless babies in cages- dont kill them.

oh, i thought this was a thread about euthanizing ALL dutch people, which i am all for, too, by the way. damn!

depends on if you consider the life of [b]children born with extreme malformations. For instance they may have no brain.[/b]
is it more cruel to kill them, or let them 'live'? (i use the term [i]life[/i] in a loose fashion)

[QUOTE=Wesley Sonck]depends on if you consider the life of [b]children born with extreme malformations. For instance they may have no brain.[/b]
is it more cruel to kill them, or let them 'live'? (i use the term [i]life[/i] in a loose fashion)[/QUOTE]

they made it through birth- the most traumatic time in your life

they want to live.

i want to look at them

[QUOTE=TheJudasCow]they made it through birth- the most traumatic time in your life

they want to live.

i want to look at them[/QUOTE]

.....

what the fuck

[QUOTE=TheJudasCow]they made it through birth- the most traumatic time in your life

they want to live.

i want to look at them[/QUOTE]

youre an idiot. i think the definition of trauma (ongoing) is living with no brain.

[QUOTE=Wesley Sonck]youre an idiot. i think the definition of trauma (ongoing) is living with no brain.[/QUOTE]

i think that a child with no brain couldnt have been traumatized since trauma is completely mental

[QUOTE=Wesley Sonck]youre an idiot. i think the definition of trauma (ongoing) is living with no brain.[/QUOTE]

you gotta wait for this bullshti argument though Wesley...

"BUT THEY DONT HAVE A BRAIN SO THEY DONT KNOW WHAT TRAUMA IS!!!!"

*sigh*

Im sure you will bahs them down though for me.

[QUOTE=TheJudasCow]i think that a child with no brain couldnt have been traumatized since trauma is completely mental[/QUOTE]

She beat me to it.

WOW.

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]She beat me to it.

WOW.[/QUOTE]

yep.
im just [I]that[/I] good

[QUOTE=THE DICTIONARY] Trauma: An [B]emotional[/B] wound or shock that creates substantial, lasting damage to the [B]psychological development [/B] of a person, often leading to neurosis.[/QUOTE]

no psychological development for the brainless

SO what your point is you want to observe them and treat them like science experiments?

What about the rights of the parents here?

die, die, die, dutchman, die!

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]SO what your point is you want to observe them and treat them like science experiments?

What about the rights of the parents here?[/QUOTE]

one mans trash is another mans treasure

if the parents say "go ahead, kill my deformed offspring, because, although i [B]created[/B] that life and carried it in my [B]body[/B], and although it was at one time [B]part of me [/B] and my body did [B]everything it could to protect this life[/B], it has no brain and i believe it should die [B]now[/B] that ive brought it into the world"

why let the living body go to waste?

why not see what caused this obvious abnormality and see if we can prevent this from happening in the future.

[QUOTE=TheJudasCow]one mans trash is another mans treasure

if the parents say "go ahead, kill my deformed offspring, because, although i [B]created[/B] that life and carried it in my [B]body[/B], and although it was at one time [B]part of me [/B] and my body did [B]everything it could to protect this life[/B], it has no brain and i believe it should die [B]now[/B] that ive brought it into the world"

why let the living body go to waste?

why not see what caused this obvious abnormality and see if we can prevent this from happening in the future.[/QUOTE]

Under 600 of these cases occur a year.

I think there are more important things to research.

such as what, doughnut hole? what is more worthy than stem cell research?

[QUOTE=framstedt]such as what, doughnut hole? what is more worthy than stem cell research?[/QUOTE]

Where did you get stem cell research from?

it hasnt been mentioned at all, and you arent making sense. Sure there may be some tiny connection between say "babies without brains and stem cells, there obviously is.. but I dotn see how we are supposed to use these babies for stem cell research?

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]Under 600 of these cases occur a year.

I think there are more important things to research.[/QUOTE]

so 700 lives are more important than 600?

if you could save 1 life, would you?

you mean to tell me that if, by doing something TODAY, you could save SIX HUNDRED lives next year, you wouldnt?

please, dont call me inhumane.

aren't we talkling about that here?

[QUOTE=TheJudasCow]so 700 lives are more important than 600?

if you could save 1 life, would you?

you mean to tell me that if, by doing something TODAY, you could save SIX HUNDRED lives next year, you wouldnt?

please, dont call me inhumane.[/QUOTE]

But there are more problematic diseases/issues in the world that kill or harm people in the world. Shouldnt that attention be focused elsehwere?

EDIT: I SAID IN THE WORLD TWICE.. O SNAP

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]Where did you get stem cell research from?

it hasnt been mentioned at all, and you arent making sense. Sure there may be some tiny connection between say "babies without brains and stem cells, there obviously is.. but I dotn see how we are supposed to use these babies for stem cell research?[/QUOTE]

if they are healthy enough to be able to survive birth, life in the womb, and live long enough to be killed- do you think their other organs work? and if they do- can we not study that? can we not study what parts of them DO work? perhaps save the life of a healthy child?

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]..

"BUT THEY DONT HAVE A BRAIN SO THEY DONT KNOW WHAT TRAUMA IS!!!!"

*sigh*

Im sure you will bahs them down though for me.[/QUOTE]

i like how must know what its like. isnt it obvious?
how could i not have known that??

and stem cell research is the key to discovering many cure for those diseases. jesus! somebody back me up here. i don't want to do a fucking poll.

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]But there are more problematic diseases/issues in the world that kill or harm people in the world. Shouldnt that attention be focused elsehwere?

EDIT: I SAID IN THE WORLD TWICE.. O SNAP[/QUOTE]

things more problematic than children being born without brains?
i believe there is more than one group of biologists in the world- its not like every single person with a degree in biological science is going to be concentrating fully on this.

i LOVE being ignored.

[QUOTE=framstedt]i LOVE being ignored.[/QUOTE]

youre hardly being ignored.
say something meaningful and your name will get a quote around it.

euthanasia - I am all for it. If someone/thing is born all fucked up, or is in the womb all fucked up - kill it. Do not suck up money keeping it alive for a week or a month.

If there is some reason that keeping it alive would further existing medical research, cool, keep it going in a lab and give it a study.

Stem cell research is definatly the way to go. If God gave us everything we need, then maybe that's where many answers are.

doing something today that will save hundreds or thousands later. Would I do it? Depends on what type of life I am saving. Is it curing cancer? Yes. is it keeping a brain dead fetus alive another month? No.

[QUOTE=framstedt]oh, i thought this was a thread about euthanizing ALL dutch people, which i am all for, too, by the way. damn![/QUOTE]
It's posts like these that make me appreciate Fram more and more.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]euthanasia - I am all for it. If someone/thing is born all fucked up, or is in the womb all fucked up - kill it. Do not suck up money keeping it alive for a week or a month.

If there is some reason that keeping it alive would further existing medical research, cool, keep it going in a lab and give it a study.

Stem cell research is definatly the way to go. If God gave us everything we need, then maybe that's where many answers are.

doing something today that will save hundreds or thousands later. Would I do it? Depends on what type of life I am saving. Is it curing cancer? Yes. is it keeping a brain dead fetus alive another month? No.[/QUOTE]

Best response yet. Bravo.

[QUOTE=framstedt]and stem cell research is the key to discovering many cure for those diseases. jesus! somebody back me up here. i don't want to do a fucking poll.[/QUOTE]

so how are you going to do stem cell research on babies tthat are already born?

i thought it could only be done on fetuses?

You cant take stem cells from a child after it is born can you?

[QUOTE=Wesley Sonck]depends on if you consider the life of [b]children born with extreme malformations. For instance they may have no brain.[/b]
is it more cruel to kill them, or let them 'live'? (i use the term [i]life[/i] in a loose fashion)[/QUOTE]

prolonging / allowing a life of misery certainly has it's discussion...I had an uncle that progressed from normal to vegetative state in about three days, and the decision was made to put him out, rather than have his suffer for an expensive pain filled natural life...you hae to wonder, will the life in question ever be able to become more than just a living mass.

IN my opinion life hooked up to machines isn't natural anyway, so I son't know why the vatican would have a problem letting someone how couldn't live without man's help live

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]You cant take stem cells from a child after it is born can you?[/QUOTE]

[I]i don't know.[/I] i'm not a doctor for christsakes. are [I]you[/I]!?!?

[QUOTE=framstedt][I]i don't know.[/I] i'm not a doctor for christsakes. are [I]you[/I]!?!?[/QUOTE]

well than the conclusion here is dont go blathering about stem cell research if you dont know what you are talking about. Stem cells cannot be taken from people. Stem cells are taken very early on in the creation of a human. These stem cells can grow into any kind of cell. You cannot take these from humans, or even babies in the later stages of pregancy.

Stem cell research isnt relevant to what people are debating here, so I dont see your point. Now if they were talking about aborting the baby, say in the first month, to harvest cells, I could see your point.

Theres a mighty big difference between being alive and living, in my humble opinion.

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]well than the conclusion here is dont go blathering about stem cell research if you dont know what you are talking about. Stem cells cannot be taken from people. Stem cells are taken very early on in the creation of a human. These stem cells can grow into any kind of cell. You cannot take these from humans, or even babies in the later stages of pregancy.

Stem cell research isnt relevant to what people are debating here, so I dont see your point. Now if they were talking about aborting the baby, say in the first month, to harvest cells, I could see your point.[/QUOTE]

i KNOW that, you dunderhead. however, i am enjoying seeing you get all worked up.

and, your remark about abortions and harvesting. that is good. talk about a double whammy controversy. wow. wowie wow wow wow.

[QUOTE=framstedt]i KNOW that, you dunderhead. however, i am enjoying seeing you get all worked up.

and, your remark about abortions and harvesting. that is good. talk about a double whammy controversy. wow. wowie wow wow wow.[/QUOTE]

you little skank! :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]well than the conclusion here is dont go blathering about stem cell research if you dont know what you are talking about. Stem cells cannot be taken from people. Stem cells are taken very early on in the creation of a human. These stem cells can grow into any kind of cell. You cannot take these from humans, or even babies in the later stages of pregancy.

Stem cell research isnt relevant to what people are debating here, so I dont see your point. Now if they were talking about aborting the baby, say in the first month, to harvest cells, I could see your point.[/QUOTE]
All about stem cells...yes, you can take stem cells from a child that is born - just like you can take organs from a person that has died...the cells can be grown in a lab.

[url]http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics4.asp[/url]

[QUOTE=wenknee]All about stem cells...yes, you can take stem cells from a child that is born - just like you can take organs from a person that has died...the cells can be grown in a lab.

[url]http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics4.asp[/url][/QUOTE]

WHY HAS TV LIED TO ME!

[QUOTE=MockyMockins]WHY HAS TV LIED TO ME![/QUOTE]
Because TV is evil...for the most part.

As for the killing babies with deformities thing -- it's a tough issue...but consider that they would probably not live very long anyway -- especially if they were born with no brain. There's a lot that doctors can do, but there is no such thing as a brain transplant.

[QUOTE= My Doctor]i don't know. i'm not a doctor for christsakes. are you!?!?[/QUOTE]

Well then, I had better stop taking these pills I got from you.

[QUOTE= Mocky]Stem cell research isnt relevant to what people are debating here[/QUOTE]

Yes, my mocking friend it is, because that research may be able to greatly reduce the number of abnormal births in the world. Euthanasia can also apply to the cancellation on abnormal fetuses. It just happens to be called abortion right now.

[QUOTE=wenknee] Because TV is evil...for the most part. [/QUOTE]

You take that back right now.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Well then, I had better stop taking these pills I got from you.

Yes, my mocking friend it is, because that research may be able to greatly reduce the number of abnormal births in the world. Euthanasia can also apply to the cancellation on abnormal fetuses. It just happens to be called abortion right now.

You take that back right now.[/QUOTE]
But I put my little non-committal statement behind it...

Mmm...non committal

so you've never been incarcerated huh? I like that in a gal.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Mmm...non committal

so you've never been incarcerated huh? I like that in a gal.[/QUOTE]
If you count being previously married as incarcerated, then yes...but I dug a tunnel out of my cell and escaped.

Ahh...barriage, I mean marriage, I did that once. You can read a bit about what happened in my "The Stranger I Love" piece in the workshop. I tried to put the link to make it easy, but it crashed netscape on me. Oh...I see that you are in Texas? Austin area? We're trying to get a in person workshop going in Austin

But anyways...I thin kthat the born with no brain comment the reported made is the exception and no the norm. These babies are not all born that fucked up. I wonder what the other end of the spectrum is. Down syndrome? A tail? What's the minimum requirement? A child that won't live detached from it host? (yes I called a mommy a host hehehe)

Later, GD.

Can someone actually be born 'without a brain'?? that's the first time I've ever read such a thing, or is that just a figure of speech? Doesn't the human body absolutely require a brain to operate, even at the most basic level?

If it is actually possible to be born without a brain, it would definitely explain some people that I know.....

Not to my knowledge. The brain only controls cognitive abilites and some of the finer things like movement. But, most of the body is self-sustaining. Heart cells can contract without any neural input and you'll still breathe. Bodily functions would more or less continue, but for how long, I don't know. That's what is ironic here; these children would die very soon if not for medical technology and now we're debating whether it would be natural to 'kill' them. I put kill in quotations because I don't consider this killing but rather ending something due to mercy and humanity.

As for research, that's great and all but it's been asked if 700 people are more worth saving than 600. Let me ask you, is saving 600 people worth basically imprisoning these helpless beings and using them as guinea pigs? I think not. I say research is to be done mainly on willing participants, except in the case of stem cells, which come on, most of those zygotes (not fetuses) are frozen and useless as it is.

[QUOTE=rkdaley]Ahh...barriage, I mean marriage, I did that once. You can read a bit about what happened in my "The Stranger I Love" piece in the workshop. I tried to put the link to make it easy, but it crashed netscape on me. Oh...I see that you are in Texas? Austin area? We're trying to get a in person workshop going in Austin

But anyways...I thin kthat the born with no brain comment the reported made is the exception and no the norm. These babies are not all born that fucked up. I wonder what the other end of the spectrum is. Down syndrome? A tail? What's the minimum requirement? A child that won't live detached from it host? (yes I called a mommy a host hehehe)[/QUOTE]
I'm near Galveston, but when for the in-person workshop?

The babies born with no brains is an exception, but so is euthanizing babies born with extreme abnormalities. I was just using it as an example...

I'll check out what you wrote.

[QUOTE=Underscore]Can someone actually be born 'without a brain'?? that's the first time I've ever read such a thing, or is that just a figure of speech? Doesn't the human body absolutely require a brain to operate, even at the most basic level?

If it is actually possible to be born without a brain, it would definitely explain some people that I know..... ;)[/QUOTE]
yes, babies can be born without a brain. It's called anencephay. -- Misspelled that...sorry...anecephaly.

[QUOTE=wenknee]yes, babies can be born without a brain. It's called anencephay. -- Misspelled that...sorry...anecephaly.[/QUOTE]

anencephaly is when the patient is born with a major part of the brain missing. in this case the patient is born blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain

in the case of the euthanasia- the patient will die within a few days, so why kill it at birth when you can study it for those few days?

obviously since there are studies on it, there has to be research going on-

patients with anencephaly have no brain stem- this is why there is no cure or treatment. the brain stem controls all functions needed to keep the body alive-
involuntary things like breathing, heart rate, blood circulation, degestion.

so patients born with this condition WILL NOT LIVE.

this is in response to two people- wenknee and someone else who said something about...something.... ill have to post and come back