The Drums of War beat slow and steady...

I grew up there!

Ugh. I don't see the point of the ban.

A Dutch politician that would love this: Geert Wilders. I'm offended that a lot of people in The Netherlands are supportive of him. He's obviously an idiot who hates muslims. I wouldn't be surprised if one day he gets the majority of the votes and gets to rule this country.

I don't even wanna know what's gonna happen then.

are they trying to piss them off? lol

I expected better from the country still holding Nazi money in its banks.

Far-right politicians across Europe celebrated the results, while the Swiss government sought to assure the Muslim minority that a ban on minarets was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture."[..]
They said that the minarets -- of which Switzerland has just four -- were not architectural features with religious characteristics, but symbolised a "political-religious claim to power, which challenges fundamental rights."

What?! Where do you learn to say such revolving-door logic type statements? Is this what you do in grad school?

So are those things like the turrets on a castle with the long vertical slender windows that they used to have people shooting arrows from or whatever? Are they worried the muslims will fall back to their mosque in some sort of last ditch effort and start shooting at people from them?

It's weird for me, because I don't live over there, but I'm constantly hearing about how the Muslims are 'taking over' in those countries, particularly England, but I don't get to hear the other side of the story. Combined with my dislike of religions getting too large, and this whole trouble in the Middle East bringing forth a lot of outcries in support of Islam, my own fears come to the forefront. It may be foolish, but when I read that article at first, I thought, "Well good." But after seeing Imke's post, it made me stop and think about the fact that I'm not sure what people in the Netherlands think, and what it's like everyday.

And then of course there is that retarded U.N. thing about prohibiting blasphemy, which is the dumbest shit ever, and if the United States backs that I can only imagine the backlash.

Of course, I can also envision a war of religions of Islam ever made a big push in this country. Christianity pretty much has this place on lockdown.

Point being, I really don't know what to feel about the situation anymore.

I know this isn't the point of this thread, but the first thing I thought of was the swiss going to war. Hillarious. What are they gonna do? Pelt the offending party with finely made chocolates?

Interestingly enough, the swiss used to have a pretty sweet fighter jet squadron, whose base was then closed down and refurbished to produce the world's third fastest production cars...

Anyway, I think it's interesting point that Fano brought up, that we never get to hear the muslim side of things. But the thing that I find so interesting is that this religion, paired with christianity, is probably the bloodiest party out there. Like, if the local muslim chapter or whatever housed itself in a building designed with perfect fighting positions, I'd be a little nervous, too. Especially if I didn't have anything past sweets and currency to arm myself with.

Muslims haven't made themselves popular in The Netherlands [or the rest of Europe for that matter]. I cannot for the life of me understand why foreigners would move to another country and start shit. Really? Stealing, threatening, beating people up, killing? For people like that, there should be an instant go-home-policy. We've got enough Dutch criminals, we don't need those from other counries as well.

It sucks for the muslims that are great people, that work hard and try to adjust to another culture.

I don't believe that making the Islam look bad or trying to fight the religion is the solution. I want those yay muslims here, we just need to get rid of the rotten ones.

By 'other side', I actually meant people who live in the Netherlands, and England, and aren't politicians. And sure, it would be good to see the Muslim side of it, but I am curious to know if it's really as bad as some claim it to be.

And yeah, my main concern in all of this is that if there was some sort of Muslim Empire or State of Islam over the world or something, that I'd be persecuted for NOT believing. I'm sure it's a foolish fear, since that's unlikely to ever happen, but I can see what makes people so opposed to Muslims.

And Imke sort of answered that, because she hates Geert Wilders, and yet she says that Muslims haven't really made themselves popular, so it gives me an idea of what the situation is. And like Imke said, there are nice Muslims, but they seem to be getting drowned out by the more radical groups.

They would never dare fight. Back when Hitler was taking over the entire continent and seeking to wipe out all but one race they just said "Eh, we'll sit this one out." I guess they didn't wish to appear judgmental. Assholes.

If anyone wonders why Americans hate Europe it's because of Switzerland. That and we're borderline retarded and terrified of foreigners.
Hey, remember when Europeans used to look down on us for our (admittedly awful) history of racism? I guess it was pretty easy to not be racist back when you didn't have any minorities yourselves, eh?

U-S-A! U-S-A!

Oh, I'm sorry I misunderstood. Either way, it would be insightful. Imke, you mentioned that muslims aren't very popular due to their behavior, but is all of it in an effort to get people to convert? Or is it just random acts of violence?

I understand the conflicts in the middle east between the religious sects, as muslim holy places share the same ground as israeli ones or what have you, and then not to mention the whole crusades thing, but I don't understand any religion so radical that if you don't believe you must die for it. The more sensical thing, it would seem, is to live your life safe in the knowledge that whatever you believe happens to you is gonna happen to you, and perhaps lead a few people with you by example, but this whole religious wars business is ridiculous.

I'm sure some of it is random, some is not, but it has nothing to do with converting people anyway.

isn't france like the biggest of all Muslim hating places? I know some people in my hometown who are french and visit their apartment and family in Paris and Morocco every summer, and they HATE muslims and think they are mooching off of the French. Don't know much about it myself though.

I don't like that you can discriminate someone so thoroughly just like that. They should ban discriminating actions. Discrimination is wrong, and bad. There should be a new, stronger word for discriminating. Like wrongbad or....

Are you serious?

I sure hope not.

I'm ridiculously un-serious. It's from an awesome movie (only then it's killing that's bad.) Everyone should Really watch it. It's some funny shit. "Kung Pow: Enter the fist"

and how about when they got all uppity of those cartoons a couple years ago?

I still have never heard a very good argument for why discrimination is bad other than "because it's bad!"

The Dogs of War growl low and ready...

This is the proudest I've ever been to be an American.

Ahh, yeah, almost forgot about that. That was annoying.

I think part of the problem is that when people get into the county they're segregated and then ghetto-ized (?). All around my city you've got areas entirely populated by Muslims, or Sumalies or Indians, and the community doesn't have as much money or opportunities and the schools aren't as good and from the outside they look like horrid places that you'd never want to go. It makes it look as if they don't want to be a part of our culture and society when it really isn't their fault that that's where they got lumped. I'd feel a lot safer walking through some of the heavily populated Muslim areas than I would in some of the real chav areas. I've lost my way now but I'm trying to say if we keep shoving all the same religions or races in their specified communities it's bound to cause speculation and segregation and stuff.

Yeah sure there are heavily populated areas of a particular demographic, but in all honesty, it's *far* away from the 'country being taken over' in my opinion.

It's mainly in the cities that you'll find more densely populated muslim communities. But saying that there are Sikh, Jewish, African communities too.

London in particular is one of the most culturally diverse places in the UK, and not all of it is segregated - I used to live in an estate in SE london, upstairs were muslim, to the right catholic, couple of doors down they were african - All mixed up basically.

Don't get me wrong, there are places where the vast majority are muslim or something else (some parts of Shoreditch for example), but for the most part everyone just kinda gets on with it y'know.

Most of my family are french, and I can tell you that there is a lot less love for muslims over there than in the UK.

Muslim communities in France often are a little more segregated, maybe that's got something to do with it.

I really don't think that happens all that much over here, if you're asking the council for somewhere to live the chances are you'll just get chucked in with everyone else, unless you've got family you want to be living near - but then that's a choice.

It really looks that way in Cardiff.
EDIT: I feel like I said a sweeping statement that didn't really reflect what I'm trying to say. There's a lot of diverse communities where everyone is mixed together and the sorting really just comes down class/financial stuff, but there are also areas that are densely populated by just one religion or race, and from the outside those areas appear intimidating to people and create the impression that that religion or race is segregating themselves, when in all likelihood it is down to the way the council works in that area. When I was a door to door toy salesman for about 3 days I went places where you would reach the end of a street and it would be like stepping into an entirely different country, both sides were poor (inevitably, I went some awful places) but it was frightening walking through the Muslim areas and in retrospect I think it was just because I didn't understand it, and it's weird to feel like a minority, and also because there was a guy with one arm and it had skin on the end that looked like when you tie a balloon up. It gives the illusion to stupid and easily impressionable people that another culture is taking over the country when actually they're just being granted a tiny and pretty rubbish cut of it.

I dunno, not been to Wales for a looong time, but maybe it's a case of having family they *want* to be near - Regardless of what the area's like.

Edit/

I feel like I said a sweeping statement that didn't really reflect what I'm trying to say. There's a lot of diverse communities where everyone is mixed together and the sorting really just comes down class/financial stuff, but there are also areas that are densely populated by just one religion or race, and from the outside those areas appear intimidating to people and create the impression that that religion or race is segregating themselves, when in all likelihood it is down to the way the council works in that area. When I was a door to door toy salesman for about 3 days I went places where you would reach the end of a street and it would be like stepping into an entirely different country, both sides were poor (inevitably, I went some awful places) but it was frightening walking through the Muslim areas and in retrospect I think it was just because I didn't understand it, and it's weird to feel like a minority, and also because there was a guy with one arm and it had skin on the end that looked like when you tie a balloon up. It gives the illusion to stupid and easily impressionable people that another culture is taking over the country when actually they're just being granted a tiny and pretty rubbish cut of it.

Yeah don't get me wrong, there are communities like that in town too, I'm just not sure whether people are grouped together out of choice or because that's where they have been placed by the council.

Inevitably, if you're getting a council house it's not going to be in the nicest area in the world - Obviously there are exceptions, but for the most part that statement holds true.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of walking through *any* council estate late at night, no matter where the majority of the inhabitants come from.

I actually know a high profile professional from Switzerland who is also a liberal muslim convert. He was talking to me about this about 4 years ago and he is for a ban. His rationale was that the country has a certain culture and aesthetic that they do not want ruined. I didn't think that was quite kosher at the time but I have gotten around to agreeing with him.

Don't forget you can't even have a cross around your neck showing on a plane to Saudi Arabia.

My ex-wife is Moroccan and I have been around a lot of Mosques so no I am not prejudiced.

That's not a good reason to start with shit like that here as well.

Word.

Respectfully Imke...

No one is saying to mess with someone's personal private religious choices like what you read and what you wear around your neck. But if you are coming to a small country for financial reasons and expect them to bend over backwards to make it look more like home for you, then that is out of line.

Also why do muslims have to be placated like they are grouchy 3 year olds being put down for a nap? "Oh no, they won't like this and will freak the fuck out". Let them.

If they are so concerned about diversity and equity let them start with wht is going on in their own countries. Boycott the Hajj.

Edit: to qualify this I'd like to say I'm against hate speech like the Mohammed cartoons. There is a difference between what say South Park does in trying to be funny and just trying to denigrate people and depict them all a certain way. This happens to Christians other groups too but Muslims do not seem to have the tact to "ride it out" as well.

Also western people like to pride themselves on their freedom and liberal values but it says a lot more about our predjudice when we are dropping bombs on people and do not give it a second thought.

BOMB THE MUSLIMS
BOMB THE JEWS
BOMB THE CHRISTIANS TOO!

BOMB THE VEGANS
BOMB THE COWS
BOMB THE WOMEN
AND THE MEN!

M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E.

Discrimination is bad because we can choose to circumvent it. We have the capability to be nice to other people. We should endorse it before we die from being fuck-faces. It's not that fucking hard. Stop thinking about yourselves for one minute, and tell the person passing you on the street to tell them they dropped their wallet or whatever. Oh, wait, if he looks like a foreigner he will probably kill you for handing it to him.

This is ridiculous.

Have you been on here more than five minutes? Even in this mostly anonymous environment, people dislike other people whose opinions they don't understand or agree with.

Discrimination isn't bad, certain people need to be discriminated against. The reason behind the discrimination is the key. Race, gender, orientation...these aren't valid reasons. Religion, for the most part isn't a good reason either, but fuck, if your religion requires you to beat or kill me because I'm not converting, then prepare for some serious discrimination. Among other things.

You apparently come from the "people are inherently good" school of thought, which is utter nonsense. People are not good; they are not nice. They are in every sense, self serving. There isn't one person alive that does good things for no reason. Everyone has a motive. Karma, God, Heaven, social recognition, whatever it may be. So lets dispense with the whole nice business, shall we?

I suspect the communists are behind this.

The Swiss have a militia. I would doubt any army in the world could take Switzerland from the Swiss. That's their point, they don't get involved in other people's wars, and don't do wars themselves. I think the rest of the world has something to learn from this.

Boy, it sure sounds like prejudice when you label an ENTIRE NATION OF PEOPLE as assholes who 'sat out a war'. Because Switzerland was so well defended, they remained nuetral while being physically surrounded by Nazis and Fascists. The many Jews who escaped to Switzerland and thus, survived, may not be too appreciative of your ignorant judgment of the peaceful people there.

Granted, there's nothing peaceful in banning building structures, but this is like MLK calling someone a kraka. It doesn't help his reputation, but still.

He sounds like a real asshole. A culture changing because of the architectural habits of immigrants does not ruin a culture.
I say it all the time; the civilized world should be more like Saudi Arabia. Switzerland should have public beheadings too.
That's super. Lou Dobbs is married to a latina.
No they're just messing with what you can put on your own church.
It's bending over backwards to let someone put a tower on their own church.
Designing your own church in accordance with your religion is out of line.
You're placating someone if you let them put a tower on their own church.
You should have to fix the problems of a country you purposely left behind by refusing to make a pilgrimage required by your religion if you want to put a tower on your own church.
Our?
Christ in a cracker, THIS is what you object to in this entire thread?!

I say nothing about not liking people. I dislike people but only because of them being stupid and ignorant -from my point of view - of course I do, and everyone else does too because that's a problem to big for us for some reason.

Discrimination is like you imply by "then prepare for some serious discrimination" a choice.
But to say that discrimination isn't bad is probably more of a problem than discrimination, since it allows it to keep going.

From discrimination comes war comes occupation comes fugitives into your country comes more discrimination.

I do not at all believe every human is inherently good. I believe that every human can be good. Not that he or she will be. And what if that person does it for his own benefits? Is it not worth anything because of him wanting something nice for himself or/and his family? If not, then we should really just go kill ourselves.

I know people are cruel to get what they want, whether spiritual or material, but it really isn't that difficult to do something kind. For your gain? So what, it's still kind. I recognize the problem of doing a kind act to gain power and whatnot, but that's not something I can do something about. We'll have to hope we elect the good and kind leaders.
If you don't want to be kind that's your problem. Perhaps you'll be discriminated for it in the future

This is a quote by Douglas Adams, that I think describes how lame being an ass-hat is.

then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change

I've done a lot of studying of the bible in my time, and I must say, I completely missed the verse that states, "and Jesus said, "Thou Shalt Be Kind"..." Just saying.

Jesus wasn't kind to everybody. In fact he displayed "righteous anger" (which of course, is an excuse for bad behavior exhibited when people didn't follow him correctly)
on many occasions.

And his kind acts weren't selfless, either.

Jesus' final commandment: Love One Another as I have loved you.

Why is helping one's self seen as the opposite of helping others? Or as though selfishly-motivated thought for others is not actually selfish? Sure, it's selfish, but there's nothing wrong with that. Hurting people is what people fear selfishness will result in. But they say this as though selfishness is unavoidable. Iss not.

I don't dislike people because of their opinions. I'm more likely to associate with those I agree with, but that's not out of spite for an opposing view so much as self-satisfaction. People I can't find common ground with I can't enjoy the presence of.

If you think about it, in having a discussion with people in which you find that you disagree, you are 'agreeing to disagree' for the course of the conversation. If you believe in taxation and I don't, while we're talking, you are entertaining the idea that I could be right, and vice versa, considering that an actual conversation is going on and people are not talking at each other. So thus, a verbal disagreement is, for the course of the disagreement at least, a sort of agreement.

Absolutely true. But this doesn't mean all Muslims wanna blow shit up. So few do that even though the terrorists/Al-Quaedese are muslims like the KKK is christian, neither is an accurate representation of mainstream christianity/islam.

I'm going to break down that paragraph into fragments I agree with and ones I don't.

Anything saying 'people are good' and 'people are bad' are simplistic viewpoints which fall apart as soon as a certain number of people who are the opposite of that are presented. It can be shown that it is rational to be good, because people don't like sucky people, and you'll find yourself socially ostracized if you aren't good.

You mean, because they're nice for selfish reasons, this means that they are not nice? I don't think that follows...

Dispense with being nice? It seems to be something that people want, so why would we dispense with it? I agree being nice for the sake thereof is as pointless as handing out money for the sake thereof. Someone has money that you don't, there's nothing inherently valuable in this. Giving to one who needs is logical, etc. Thus, we should not confuse rational self-interest, which drives all of us, with irrational assholicism, not being nice because we've concluded nice is impossible.

If Ayn Rand's stuff was more consistent, I'd recommend it to people having issue with being nice vs. being selfish, etc. Rand wasn't nice, though, so it kinda doesn't help...

Ozymadius: I'm from Canada, if I moved willingly to France it would be for the change of culture. I wouldn't want to build a big conspicuous monument to Tim Hortons as soon as I got there. No one is stopping them from practicing anything. The same courtesy would absolutley not be adopted if I went to the Maldives and built a mongo church of Scientology.

Despite what goes on in your head, people can and do have more nuanced opinions than being Lou Dobbs at one end and a bobble head liberal at the other. This kind of social schizophrenia has us bombing the shit out of country and then saying, "oh since we did this now we can't possibly leave!". 

And no it is not wrong to address the egregious crap in their countries before moaning about small inconveniences. The only complaint I have heard about the holy land Saudi Arabia is that they do not share their wealth more. They are not standing up for minority rights they are standing up for privilage. See if they are willing to go to battle for gay marriage out of human conscience (not that I believe anyone should be forced to believe a certain way). 

Calling people shit in arguments does prove anything with me. As they say, please show your work. I'm glad you are more non biased on the issue than someone I have heard talk about his deep love of the Prophet Mohammed. What an asshole eh?!

Making your position known in politics is rarely a good way to make friends.

On the opposite end of the spectrum I like another author's website for the writing discussion they have there. www.dansimmons.com

They are far right politically and despite being tempted to interject I am not stepping one foot on the political board.

One pearl of wisdom I saw...

"Yes, I want to be the War President. War, for want of a better word, is good, particularly war against crazed thugs who bury defenseless women in soil up to their waists to be stoned to death in sports arenas. We are not just citizens of America; we are citizens of an interdependent world."

These colors don't run!

The level of pure, concentrated fail in this thread is fucking incredible. Do you people not realize there is a Preview button and that you can check what you typed before posting it?
I don't even know where to start. Yes I do.

Haha, aren't I a character?
There shouldn't be ironic quotes around sat out a war because they really did sit out a war. Refused to fight the psychotic dictatorship next door that was trying to take over the world and was gassing millions of people. Couldn't be bothered. Sorry all non-Aryan races. Better luck next time.
No, they'd agree with me since millions of their people were murdered by the Germans and tens of thousands were refused asylum because the Swiss were too busy shooting down Allied planes, doing the Nazis' banking, stealing the money of Holocaust victims and using Auschwitz prisoners for slave labor to try to stop them. They were scum.
Are you out of your fucking mind? PEACEFUL??
It's about time that someone recognizes my similarity to MLK, though I didn't guess you'd be the first.
That's because the Bible wasn't written for mongoloids who need the obvious dumbed down to the simplest possible level.
Seriously, is this how you argue things? "I didn't SEE any passage that says 'Thou shalt be kind'" "I didn't actually say the words 'tourettes isn't real.'" Really? Do you seriously think splitting hairs like this makes you look good?
No shit, that wasn't the fucking point of the story. He wasn't supposed to be perfect, he was part human and therefore fallible. Like Spock. Everyone understands this except you.

A fast food restaurant is analagous to religion in your mind. This explains much.
They're being prevented from designing their churches in accordance with their religion even though it's their property for no reason other than bigotry. Somehow this makes sense to you.
We should all aspire to be more like Maldives where everyone is forced by law to be in the same religion.
Muslims in Switzerland shouldn't be allowed to put towers on their own churches because they don't criticise Saudi Arabia enough to your liking and aren't helping to legalize gay marriage. This couldn't be a more moronic sentiment if you'd simply typed "TIMMY!" over and over again.
Sarcasm only works when it's not true. He's an asshole if he agrees with your lunacy, as is anyone.

Haha, aren't I a character?
There shouldn't be ironic quotes around sat out a war because they really did sit out a war. Refused to fight the psychotic dictatorship next door that was trying to take over the world and was gassing millions of people. Couldn't be bothered. Sorry all non-Aryan races. Better luck next time.

Okay. People/countries sticking their noses they don't belong is the catalyst for every major war the world has experienced. We only joined WWII because we got bombed. They brought it to us. Nobody bothered the Swiss. They stayed out of it. Now, as a result, no Swiss died in battle. No Swiss died, period. They had the means to defend their country if necessary, and were prepared to do so, but that's it. Imagine if everyone adopted their live and let live policy?

That's because the Bible wasn't written for mongoloids who need the obvious dumbed down to the simplest possible level.
Seriously, is this how you argue things? "I didn't SEE any passage that says 'Thou shalt be kind'" "I didn't actually say the words 'tourettes isn't real.'" Really? Do you seriously think splitting hairs like this makes you look good?

Okay, since you would like to be rude for no reason, I'm going to put it to you this way. The bible was actually written for simple minded people. Because whomever wrote it expected people to believe utterly unproovable nonsense and stake their eternal soul, if there is such a thing, on said beliefs. Jesus wanted people to "love as he loved". So, by his example, I should love only the people that agree with everything I say, follow me, and/or worship me. And splitting hairs? My friend, you were so busy "splitting hairs" with Gig that you almost didn't even get to me. Splitting hairs, or as everyone else likes to call it, discussion, is kinda what this forum is all about.

You need to go back and reread your new testament...

[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Another result is that the war lasted longer than it would have if the Allies had been able to fight Germany from right next door and instead the Nazis had more time to slaughter prisoners. Thousands more? Maybe millions?

I avoided joining your lynch mob for as long as I humanly could. I have fingernails grooves on my mouse.
Clearly it wasn't simple enough.

Believe it or not, most countries didn't believe the Holocaust was happening until after the war was over. Hitler's views with Social Darwinism were not uncommon in the world, even as late as the 1940's, and so most countries didn't believe he had moved beyond just talk, and into the actual act of genocide. It's unfair to use the Holocaust as an argument for why countries should have joined, when they didn't actually believe it was happening. Hell, Ireland, who stayed neutral, actually thought it was English propaganda when news of the atrocities first came through. It took a couple of months for the Irish to believe that the horrible actions were not an attempt by the English to get them to join the Allies, but had actually happened.