Soldiers die because god is punishing america for tolerating homosexuality . ..

I completely agree!!!!!!!!!!
People like that REALLY piss me off, as I was raised here in the Bible Belt and have been a churchgoer all of my life. This is not how we feel. When I hear Muslims say that suicide bombers do not represent true Islam, I have to agree. It's the same with these assholes. I know that a "good Christian" would not wish harm on anyone, but... a bad one would, and I'm ok with that. There's no way I could bury someone I love and have that going on, and not go to jail.
I love the term "pillow biter".

broken link????

[QUOTE=JKabol]. .
_

[URL=rtsp://av.umcom.org/umtv/20060621/guarding_military_funerals.asf][b][i][size=4]semper fi semper fag[/size][/i][/b][/URL]

this adds a new twist, as I’d never thought that men and women protest the funerals of dead soldiers because they hate pillow biters. That’s just dumb. You just wanna grab one of em and shake the shit outta em, beat them with their own signs. If I was related to the dead corporal, those freaks would be mourning a few of their own losses ..
kabol[/QUOTE]

And people wonder why I hate fundies!

[QUOTE=xec8]broken link????[/QUOTE]
yeah man, I'm not seeing anything either.

sorry, all. im still pullin it. the link pulls directly through real player

Worked for me as well, install Real Player

These protestors piss me off more than most, and I hate alotta people.

isn't this old news about insignificant people?

it's not as old as me . ..

This may be old news, but it shows some people must be hated by me.

Hate?

you closed-minded bigot

[QUOTE=nathaniel parker]Hate?

you closed-minded bigot[/QUOTE]

Damn you to hell.

i've read an article about one of those scum fucker wasted mother fucking piece of shit and he was saying that most of the existentialist philosopher and writer like sartre, camus, dostoievsky, nietzsche who were talking about the liberty that has been brought to us by the death of god were then brought back to the enlightment of god's spirit and that all the existentialist philosophy was only for confuse people who lost faith...isn't that propaganda? sartre or nietzsche, in they're writting, saying that faith was the answer after all? are the christian so desperate and pathetic that they think we will be brainwashed ?

the only major existentialist, as far as i know, who supported religious faith (and even he was against organized religions/religious institutions) was kierkegaard.

[QUOTE=Raskolnikov]i've read an article about one of those scum fucker wasted mother fucking piece of shit and he was saying that most of the existentialist philosopher and writer like sartre, camus, dostoievsky, nietzsche who were talking about the liberty that has been brought to us by the death of god were then brought back to the enlightment of god's spirit and that all the existentialist philosophy was only for confuse people who lost faith...isn't that propaganda? sartre or nietzsche, in they're writting, saying that faith was the answer after all? are the christian so desperate and pathetic that they think we will be brainwashed ?[/QUOTE]

So, yeah I don't know if I'll even be able to finish Crime and Punishment, too boring.

[QUOTE=veryhungryhobo]This may be old news, but it shows some people must be hated by me.[/QUOTE]
huh? What the fuck are you talking about?

yeah some peoples say that, but it's like my favorite book so i don't really know why..

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]huh? What the fuck are you talking about?[/QUOTE]

Im saying (In broken english) that these people who protest at funerals are ignorant fools. It seems impossible to change their idea. I hate this, and it seem that we are better with them dead.

Sorry about my english.

[QUOTE=veryhungryhobo]Im saying (In broken english) that these people who protest at funerals are ignorant fools. It seems impossible to change their idea. I hate this, and it seem that we are better with them dead.

Sorry about my english.[/QUOTE]
No worries about your english, but I still can't read the article, so I thought you were talking about something else, since I remember your strange post about gays in some other thread, so I guess I inferred those thoughts here.

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]No worries about your english, but I still can't read the article, so I thought you were talking about something else, since I remember your strange post about gays in some other thread, so I guess I inferred those thoughts here.[/QUOTE]

It's not an article, It's a video of those assholes from that fundamentalist church in KS that goes to soldiers funerals protesting that soldiers die in the war in Iraq because our country is tolerant of gays. If our country should start being intolerant of anything it should be a) corrupt gov officials and corporations and FUNDAMENTALIST WORLDWIDE

[QUOTE=Anne Gray]I completely agree!!!!!!!!!!
People like that REALLY piss me off, as I was raised here in the Bible Belt and have been a churchgoer all of my life. This is not how we feel. When I hear Muslims say that suicide bombers do not represent true Islam, I have to agree. It's the same with these assholes. I know that a "good Christian" would not wish harm on anyone, but... a bad one would, and I'm ok with that. There's no way I could bury someone I love and have that going on, and not go to jail. [/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[QUOTE=veryhungryhobo]Im saying (In broken english) that these people who protest at funerals are ignorant fools. It seems impossible to change their idea. I hate this, and it seem that we are better with them dead.

Sorry about my english.[/QUOTE]
I agree! Anyone that has a different opinion then us should be killed!

[QUOTE=veryhungryhobo]Im saying (In broken english) that these people who protest at funerals are ignorant fools. It seems impossible to change their idea. I hate this, and it seem that we are better with them dead.

Sorry about my english.[/QUOTE]
I just love extreme opinions, I proposed to kill every fucking human on this fucking planet, that sould solve the problem.

It's our own fault that these morons get air time instead of something actually worth reporting on.

If those kinds of stories didn't get ratings, the networks wouldn't pump them into our houses night after night. They get ratings because people tune in en masse when they come on.

There will always be outrageous morons who back up their ridiculous view of the world with religion, among other things, and as long as the general public tunes in, they'll keep making the stories.

This is why my church will never make headlines. We do this amazing thing called "outreach" (and yes, we back this idea up with the bible, too), But then we actually have a [I]positive [/I]impact on our community.

But let's be honest, that just doesn't get the ratings.

[QUOTE=Mr.Shadov]I just love extreme opinions, I proposed to kill every fucking human on this fucking planet, that sould solve the problem.[/QUOTE]

No, corporal punishment for all crimes, duh.

[QUOTE=veryhungryhobo]No, corporal punishment for all crimes, duh.[/QUOTE]
hey, we don't need to waste time till someone will commit a crime, just kill all before that.
they will commit a crime anyway so why we should wait?

[QUOTE=Mr.Shadov]hey, we don't need to waste time till someone will commit a crime, just kill all before that.
they will commit a crime anyway so why we should wait?[/QUOTE]
you're pretty much a fucking retard, with the density of a crappy diamond huh?

[QUOTE=nathaniel parker]you're pretty much a fucking retard, with the density of a crappy diamond huh?[/QUOTE]
I can't answer to that, because I don't understand the question.(retard? density of a crappy diamond?)

[QUOTE=nathaniel parker]you're pretty much a fucking retard, with the density of a crappy diamond huh?[/QUOTE]

Did you know that the word "cretin" (meaning "retard") derives from an old French word for Christian?

Why so negative, everyone?

Do you need a hug?

no thanks, I was sarcastic all the time.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]It's our own fault that these morons get air time instead of something actually worth reporting on.

If those kinds of stories didn't get ratings, the networks wouldn't pump them into our houses night after night. They get ratings because people tune in en masse when they come on.

There will always be outrageous morons who back up their ridiculous view of the world with religion, among other things, and as long as the general public tunes in, they'll keep making the stories.

This is why my church will never make headlines. We do this amazing thing called "outreach" (and yes, we back this idea up with the bible, too), But then we actually have a [I]positive [/I]impact on our community.

But let's be honest, that just doesn't get the ratings.[/QUOTE]
Your absolutely right, but I think the problem is growing.
A mini rant.

While these idiots are the fundimentalist far far right, I think America is getting 'sick' of the evangelicals. Most of America is centrist, proven by many many polls, yet we are seeing the impact of evangelical Christians who want to impose thier version of morality in America. This impact was felt by everyone during the last presidential election. A president who is completely out of touch with his people, yet in touch with 'god', who is guiding him and America, because according to our president , god talks to him, and god is on our (Americas) side.
If there is a god, wouldnt he be on everyones side? If man was made in god image, all man would be on gods side.
Suffice to say a moajority of Americans now think the president has failed in his tenure. The quagmire in Iraq, the completely botched Katrina response.
He is the connection. America is now seeing fundementalists and evangelicals in the same light. They get news. The messages become entertwined. Both groups want to outlaw abortion, hate homosexuals, want to isntall christian prayer in schools and make this a born again country. When the message is the same, the groups become the same. Pat Robertson, Mr Evangelical himself stated the Katrina was gods punishement to New Orleans for allowing a gay pride parade. Well then, isnt that some old testament spite right there. I think what you are seeing is more and more hardcore christain groups moving farther right as they fell their 'faith' is threatend but what they deem is wrong with society. More fundis equal more news time.
Sadly, whats lost is a group like IreLocus' church who make their community better. They are lumped in with the fundis because they share the same book. Glide Memorial in SF does fantastic work for the homeless and poor in the Bay Area. But all we are seeing is fundemantalists on the news.

Well put, Ross.

I think religion as a political platform is weak, but it goes in and out of style. A few years ago, it seemed like a good move for Dubya to associate himself with religion (ins somebody's mind, I guess). I cringe at the thought. Where is the seperation of church and state when you NEED it?

Politics are politics, religion is religion, can't the two just co-exist and leave each other alone?

Now all of the sudden, anyone with a bible is both to blame for starting the war with Iraq and expected to say that people dying in Iraq is God's vengance.

[QUOTE=xec8]the only major existentialist, as far as i know, who supported religious faith (and even he was against organized religions/religious institutions) was kierkegaard.[/QUOTE]

Walker Percy was a Catholic existentialist. He wrote The Moviegoer and Thanatos Syndrome. He's also the guy who finally pushed Confederacy of Dunces into print.

I think this guy is a good pastor as well [url]http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/30/news/church.php[/url]

However, fundies are in too powerful of places, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Bush etc
This is a good documentary on that
[url]http://www.obscuredtv.com/newsite/documentaries.php?cat_id=20[/url]

I, myself, am a scientist and see no necessity for god and especially religion. I've been studying evolution and atheist philosophies for the past 2 years pretty intensely. It's funny how my kind are among the least trusted in america, why? because we undermine the faithful's faith by providing evidence of the illiteral "truth" of the bible and the more stuff we disprove, the less believeable the bible is and therefore the religion. I've also been looking into the history of christianity, like all the rituals and beliefs that were taken and integrated directly from pagan religions because the pagans did not want to give them up for christianity. [url]http://www.obscuredtv.com/newsite/viewpage.php?page_id=16[/url]

I don't think religion is that bad in some respects, it brings together community, but at the same time it outcasts outsiders.

"Many Americans seem to believe some kind of religious faith is central to being a good American and a good person."
[url]http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/03/24/67686[/url]
I think that this thinking is a huge falacy, I very much want this world to be a better place, I want their to be equal rights for all people, I do not want anyone discriminated against, I do not want children to be hungry anywhere, I want our environment to stay pristine, I want anyone to be able to move anywhere in the world they want. I would love it if people could go to any country without restrictions.

"Increasing problems of society - for example, juvenile delinquency - are being blamed on lack of religious value."
I also disagree with this sentiment as well, I may sound racsist here, but black people in general are more relgious than white people, yet black people are more crime prone. These are statistical facts and I am not stating that only black people commit crimes or that all black people are criminals, so DO NOT accuse me of being racsist.

I am, however, interested if your parish, ire, is in Milwaukee? As you seem to be one of the good guys I'm sorry the fundies make all christians look bad.

[QUOTE=bassplr19]I think this guy is a good pastor as well [url]http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/30/news/church.php[/url]
[/QUOTE]

Wow, thanks for the link... I know this Greg Boyd guy. Really, I live in Saint Paul, too, and we cross paths every once in a while.

[edit: I lived in Milwaukee for a while, but I didn't have a solid home church there. I was in college and who has the time?]

Now I remember... This sermon series where Greg Boyd refused to make his religious beliefs political, it happened like 2 years ago, but he's [I]still [/I]getting email about it, he says.

20% of the church left and never came back because of that. Wow...

Here's [URL=http://www.gregboyd.org/]his website[/URL].

[QUOTE=sal79parody]Walker Percy was a Catholic existentialist. He wrote The Moviegoer and Thanatos Syndrome. He's also the guy who finally pushed Confederacy of Dunces into print.[/QUOTE]
thanks for pointing that one out, Grant.

[QUOTE=bassplr19]"Many Americans seem to believe some kind of religious faith is central to being a good American and a good person."
[url]http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/03/24/67686[/url]
I think that this thinking is a huge falacy, I very much want this world to be a better place, I want their to be equal rights for all people, I do not want anyone discriminated against, I do not want children to be hungry anywhere, I want our environment to stay pristine, I want anyone to be able to move anywhere in the world they want. I would love it if people could go to any country without restrictions.

"Increasing problems of society - for example, juvenile delinquency - are being blamed on lack of religious value."
I also disagree with this sentiment as well, I may sound racsist here, but black people in general are more relgious than white people, yet black people are more crime prone. These are statistical facts and I am not stating that only black people commit crimes or that all black people are criminals, so DO NOT accuse me of being racsist.

I am, however, interested if your parish, ire, is in Milwaukee? As you seem to be one of the good guys I'm sorry the fundies make all christians look bad.[/QUOTE]

I've come to think that religion is great for maintaining social stability, as long as it doesn't over step it's boundaries. We've always needed more people on the bottom rungs of society (whether they're called slaves, peasants of working class) to support a few people on the upper rungs of society (call them nobility, aristocracy or professional class). This is less true since the industrial revolution but it still stands. What's also essential is that these people don't cause too much trouble for society. This is where religion comes in.

For one, it's a dumb idea. It's aimed at stupid people. The tendancy is that the smarter someone is, the less likely they are to believe in religious ideas. Not only that but Christianity [I]admits[/I] that it's aimed at dumb, sheepish people. It says that the meek shall inherit the earth and that the intelligent ones aren't going to be the ones that believe.

Religion gives metaphysical hope and validation where no physical validation is present. This is something that the people on the lower rungs of society are going to need.

Finally, it keeps them all in check. The masses need to be well behaved and religious codes of ethics (which match up to the laws) do this. It's also against divorce, since that tends to lead to single parent families which are a cost to society. It's strange that in the last hundred years religion has been against any form of contraception. There's nothing about that in the bible but somehow Christians have decided it's immoral. This is pretty good because it ensures that they'll keep their numbers up.

The problems come about when people actually believe in all of it. That's what this thread is about, people actually believing in the bible. Hardly anyone actually believes all of it, they just see it as a nice way to live. Frankly, anyone who says that they are Christian and that they don't hate gay people is lying, they may not know it, but they are. The fundies are the only true believers.

Look at the bible. It claims that it's the true word of god, it also says that the world was created in seven days that being gay is immoral. Now, I can imagine that a god might choose to speak in a non-literal sense about the creation of earth, he was speaking to primative people after all. But when it comes to homosexuality being immoral, there's no second-guessing it. I once heard someone (some sort of high ranking priest in the church of england) say that attitudes towards gays in the church are changing because we now know that being gay isn't a choice, it's something that you're born with. This is a clear example of someone who doesn't really believe because surely, even if we didn't know that homosexuality was a choice, god would have known?

If the bible says that it's the word of god and that god is great, then what gives anyone the right to pick and choose what's relevant today? If god is that great, then wouldn't it all be relevant to today?

The fact of the matter is that these problems aren't being caused by the minority of religious people, they're being caused by the religious people. Everyone else claims to be religious when it suits them but don't really believe, which isn't a bad idea for most of society.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]I've come to think that religion is great for maintaining social stability, as long as it doesn't over step it's boundaries. We've always needed more people on the bottom rungs of society (whether they're called slaves, peasants of working class) to support a few people on the upper rungs of society (call them nobility, aristocracy or professional class). This is less true since the industrial revolution but it still stands. What's also essential is that these people don't cause too much trouble for society. This is where religion comes in.[/QUOTE]

We do not NEED to have upper and lower rungs of society. Slaves vs. Nobility is alot different than working vs. professional class. Yes, I agree that the people that come up with the ideas and the leaders should get a larger share than the drone workers, however, not to the extent that it is in our society. The poor are still shat on.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]For one, it's a dumb idea. It's aimed at stupid people. The tendancy is that the smarter someone is, the less likely they are to believe in religious ideas. Not only that but Christianity [I]admits[/I] that it's aimed at dumb, sheepish people. It says that the meek shall inherit the earth and that the intelligent ones aren't going to be the ones that believe.

Religion gives metaphysical hope and validation where no physical validation is present. This is something that the people on the lower rungs of society are going to need.[/QUOTE]

If our society was more socialistic, more fair and balanced towards everyone, religion would unfortunately still be there, because people in general are sheepish and someone could make a couple bucks off of them.
"I’d like to start a religion. That’s where the money is."
- L. Ron Hubbard

“Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities — the political, the religious, the educational authorities — who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing — forming in our minds — their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable open-mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself.” - Timothy Leary

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]Finally, it keeps them all in check. The masses need to be well behaved and religious codes of ethics (which match up to the laws) do this. It's also against divorce, since that tends to lead to single parent families which are a cost to society. It's strange that in the last hundred years religion has been against any form of contraception. There's nothing about that in the bible but somehow Christians have decided it's immoral. This is pretty good because it ensures that they'll keep their numbers up.

The problems come about when people actually believe in all of it. That's what this thread is about, people actually believing in the bible. Hardly anyone actually believes all of it, they just see it as a nice way to live. Frankly, anyone who says that they are Christian and that they don't hate gay people is lying, they may not know it, but they are. The fundies are the only true believers. [/QUOTE]

Fundy numbers are growing and they believe every word of the bible is TRUTH. Fundies are in high places so it's not just for the lower rungs. George Bush appointed fundies all over the place, DOD, FDA, Justices. Think tanks are full of them.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]Look at the bible. It claims that it's the true word of god, it also says that the world was created in seven days that being gay is immoral. Now, I can imagine that a god might choose to speak in a non-literal sense about the creation of earth, he was speaking to primative people after all. But when it comes to homosexuality being immoral, there's no second-guessing it. I once heard someone (some sort of high ranking priest in the church of england) say that attitudes towards gays in the church are changing because we now know that being gay isn't a choice, it's something that you're born with. This is a clear example of someone who doesn't really believe because surely, even if we didn't know that homosexuality was a choice, god would have known?

If the bible says that it's the word of god and that god is great, then what gives anyone the right to pick and choose what's relevant today? If god is that great, then wouldn't it all be relevant to today?

The fact of the matter is that these problems aren't being caused by the minority of religious people, they're being caused by the religious people. Everyone else claims to be religious when it suits them but don't really believe, which isn't a bad idea for most of society.[/QUOTE]

They get their no contraceptives from "be fruitful and multiply," maybe god was talking to the gays when he said this!!!
How come the bible makes no references to hermaphrodites, chicks with dicks, or people that were born hermaphrodites and had something chopped off or sown up? Say they took off the wrong thing, and that person needs to be with the now opposite sex. The bible/religion causes bigotism/racsism/hatred regardless of how "faithful" you are. I personally am trying to get rid of all of my prejudices. Are they? Look at some christian book titles

A Parent's Guide to Preventing Homosexuality
Helping People Step Out of Homosexuality
The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing the Principal Threat to Religious Freedom Today
Ten Persuasive Answers to the Question ... "Why Not Gay Marriage?"
You Don't Have To Be Gay

[url]http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/08/18/for-shits-and-grins/#comments[/url]

[QUOTE=bassplr19]We do not NEED to have upper and lower rungs of society. Slaves vs. Nobility is alot different than working vs. professional class. Yes, I agree that the people that come up with the ideas and the leaders should get a larger share than the drone workers, however, not to the extent that it is in our society. The poor are still shat on.

This isn't much different from what I said, you're just calling them "drone workers" and "the people that come up with the ideas and the leaders", I call them lower rungs and upper rungs of society as a blanket term.

In the past it was about supporting the life styles and luxury of the nobility but this has started to change. These days it's not just about how much each gets paid, it's about the amount of money and levels of productivity that are needed to run a society in which technological advancement, large scale agriculture and healthy economies can florish. The motivation has changed but the principles have remained the same.

Okay, but in a lot of cases the people making profit from cults and religions are exploiting people's pain. For example, scientology generally takes peoples negative emotions (which are usually completely natural) and tells them that they have a mental illness which can only be cured by scientology. Most religion comes from pain and uncertainty, whether it comes from people's position in society or not.

I wasn't saying that the social order is the sole root of religion, I was just saying that religion is a useful tool to maintain a beneficial social order.

Exactly, like I said. The problems start when people start literally believing religious ideas.

Beneficial to who? Certainly NOT the people at the lower rung! I wish these people could see this. Currently, I'd say that I'm at the top of that lower rung, but I'm still on that lower rung (not for too much longer - BS degrees here I come).

I always get sidetracked and never fully state my opinion. What I was trying to say is different, and I still don't think I'll be able to explain it properly.

The way the drone/lower workers are treated and the order is not necessary for a advanced technological society. It can be done in better ways. The upper rungs still have these opulent lifestyles that are not necessary.

Maybe these fundies in high places don't really believe, maybe they did just realize that if they do what the actual fundies want they can make alot of money and do whatever the hell they want else.

I'll agree that there are some enlightened religious people who aren't bigoted assholes, but the fact that the fundies are so outspoken makes them guilty by association by not speaking more openly against the fundies.

I shouldn't have said that the bible/religion causes bigotism/racsism/hatred, it merely stokes and fuels it, reinfirming it. Look at slavery, the holocaust, Israel, these militant muslims, etc...

The social order is still beneficial to people on the lower rungs, just not quite as beneficial as it is for people on the higher rungs, look at the quality of life for the poorer people in the western world, it's better than it's ever been. Also, there are knock-down effects that benefit the people at the bottom, for instance large amounts of "drone" workers pay the taxes that fund the police, the firemen, the army, the hospitals (in most developed countries), welfare, the education system and a lot of scientific research. Also, if they're not paid very much then companies can produce cheap goods, which benefits society by allowing people to buy more.

The main reason why there have to be more people at the bottom rungs is that it takes some kind of intelligence or ability to make it to the higher rungs (in most cases) and there aren't enough people with those kind of talents.

It's irrelevent if way that the people on the lower rungs are treated is neccesary. I'm not really talking about that. They have a lower quality of life than other people, this will probably always be the case. This could invoke jealousy, dissatisfaction and lawlessness. Religion is a good way of preventing this because it gives them something that they think the upper rungs can't or don't have- a sense of moral correctness and the promise of rewards after death. That is, as long as a good separation of church and state is kept and all forms of fundamentalism is opposed. Which, unfortunately, isn't really happening over there.

Okay, to summerise-

Marx said that religion is the opiate of the masses, what I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with opiates provided they're used in the appropriate manner.

It's probably better than what's happening here with all the chavs and everything, basically opiates are the religion of the masses these days.

I think religion, at least the fundamentalists, would like people to stay on the bottom rung. Look at their attack on science, yet they have no problems using the technologies that science gave them. Look at stem cells, their attack on biology classes. It appears that they want us to all live like the amish, but at least I can (and do) respect the amish. This country needs to invest more in science and MORE IMPORTANTLY EDUCATION, not just make students take tests and say that no child is left behind. Alot of these right-wingers complain that teachers make too much money and have too good of health care, do they even know a teacher?

Look at our health care system, it sucks. Sure you can get quality care, but more than likely bend over and lube up.

Why should the lower classes bear most of the brunt for all those public services, they aren't the only people that use them.

Think of all the extra billions of dollars the upper class makes, the heads of corporations, boards, etc.. 20 years ago, ceo's made like 200x the average workers pay, now it's 450+x, I think if that money was spread more evenly to the workers of those companies, it would be more beneficial to everyone. People would make more and therefore spend more, while keeping the costs of the products the same.

again, sorry full of incomplete thought but enough to keep going...

But there still has to be some rewards for being an idea person/leader or people aren't as likely to go for it. Religion is a good way of keeping the ones that can't or won't get these rewards happy. I'm not really talking about whether or not the gap between the two is too large, I'm just saying that there has to be a gap and that the majority of people will be on the bottom half of this gap.

I don't know where you are at, but do you need religion to be complacent? To conform? To tell you what is right and what is wrong? If you're not already, pretend you are at the bottom (I'm not making any judgements here).

Religion makes the masses complacent with the fact that they are poor, and makes them fine with the fact that they'll always be poor when they can (most of the time) do something with their lives.

I agree that there should be a gap in between the people that do something with their lives and the burger king / janitor / waitress people that are just living to get by. However, I don't think these people should be shat on like they are. (Obviously. I like the word shat!!) I don't agree that there has to be a gap, people want to do good/hard/difficult/extremely challenging thing because they want to / want to prove they can / or just care. Alot of volunteers would just as soon volunteer regardless of faith but because they want to or feel that it's the right thing to do.

Bass are you rich and poweful?

I bow down to you, my lord.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]The social order is still beneficial to people on the lower rungs, just not quite as beneficial as it is for people on the higher rungs, look at the quality of life for the poorer people in the western world, it's better than it's ever been. Also, there are knock-down effects that benefit the people at the bottom, for instance large amounts of "drone" [b]workers pay the taxes that fund the police, the firemen,[/b] the army, the hospitals (in most developed countries), welfare, the education system and a lot of scientific research. Also, if they're not paid very much then companies can produce cheap goods, which benefits society by allowing people to buy more.

The main reason why there have to be more people at the bottom rungs is that it takes some kind of intelligence or ability to make it to the higher rungs (in most cases) and there aren't enough people with those kind of talents.

It's irrelevent if way that the people on the lower rungs are treated is neccesary. I'm not really talking about that. They have a lower quality of life than other people, this will probably always be the case. This could invoke jealousy, dissatisfaction and lawlessness. Religion is a good way of preventing this because it gives them something that they think the upper rungs can't or don't have- a sense of moral correctness and the promise of rewards after death. That is, as long as a good separation of church and state is kept and all forms of fundamentalism is opposed. Which, unfortunately, isn't really happening over there.[/QUOTE]

Thats actually not true, but it always sounds good during election years. Well at least in California.
A very brief synopsis of Prop 13.
Here in California, our property taxes are equal to 1% of the value of you home when you purchased it. This was set in 1979, voters voted this Proposistion 13 in because propery taxes were out of control. Certain people who owned a home prior to 1978 were granted a one time exemtion whe purchasing a new homw after 1978 because their taxes would be so much higher. Anyway, here in Ca our property taxes equal 1% of our property value. Every time a house is sold, the property is reassed to reflect the homes current market value. They cannot raise your property taxes while you own the home unles you have voted for school bond measures, or other assesments.
Now, back then, all of the public services all of the sudden had less money. They decided to divy up the pies. Most fire depts ( I cant speak for police or others ) recieve 15% of the 1% of tax dollars. But it all depende on what the FDs at the time felt they needed. For instance, rural areas circa 1979 may have set their rate at 6% of the 1% of tax dollars, being that old Bob Fire Chief was friends with John the Farmer who owned 200 acres and John didnt want to pay alot. Well they didnt have the foresight of growth and not what was one a town of 200 is now a city of 50,000 and their tax rate ids still low because it takes a 2/3 majorty vote to change any tax rate. What the common tax payer thinks they are paying for public servie is really not much at all.
Its business that foots the bill. Costco, Wall Mart, Target, Safeway, these are the big payers of public servie. Not only are their property taxes a lot larger, the sales taxes they generate provide another bulk of the funding. They did a study inthat to fully fund a fire dept without any sort of commercial business in the community, each home in the community had to be worth more than one million dollars.
Now not all staes are like this, but most have a similar tax rate for public services.

Just thought Id clear that up.

This right in the same vein of Black people having black kids to punish them for being black.