Peak Oil

see, thats exactly it. tahst the problem.
people think, "oh well... ...I'll be and old man or woman by then, or I will already be dead, so who gives a shit." Right?

Yea, thats pretty fucking selfish if you ask me. and your humor is laughable, yes. But its also appalling. Not because of you, but because most everyone thinks like that. Its natural, I guess. But it doesnt make it right.

No one wants to take responsibilty for their actions, they wanna pawn this off on the next generation.

[QUOTE=mungkay]"Rather, it is the scientific conclusion of the best paid, most widely-respected geologists, physicists, and investment bankers in the world."

Whoa, whoa whoa. Since when do people listen to the scientific conclusions of investment bankers?[/QUOTE]
we manage resources. thats what, financial advisors are very good at mangaging things, thats why money has such value. So that is why they use financial investment bankers, and probably because they will stick it out to help. Since they are going to invest in the help of trying to postpone the Oil Crash until sometime after 2020 when it peaks again, so that we wont have to worry about this whole horrible and great possibilty, they want to know the facts as well. So yea, they do the research too. To know what they are putting their money on the table for.

[QUOTE=Minuet]see, thats exactly it. tahst the problem.
people think, "oh well... ...I'll be and old man or woman by then, or I will already be dead, so who gives a shit." Right?

Yea, thats pretty fucking selfish if you ask me. and your humor is laughable, yes. But its also appalling. Not because of you, but because most everyone thinks like that. Its natural, I guess. But it doesnt make it right.

No one wants to take responsibilty for their actions, they wanna pawn this off on the next generation.[/QUOTE]

Let me tell you something. You can spend all your time picking up soda cans and saving the whales and being eco this and enviro that, but all you're doing is trying to put a band-aid on a bullet wound.

This information you provide is not new to me. The decline of civilization is still in it's infancy, but it has started and it cannot be stopped, unless you're willing to attempt to otherthrow the government and corporate amarica, which as far as I can tell, would be the only way to do so at this point.

I say lets speed up this decline so that the world as we know it hits rock bottom, because it is not until the old system is broken down that we (as in people like you and me who are capable of free thought) can build a better one.

Have you heard of a tale of Bear, Tiger, Horse, Monkey, and Elephant, working together to dig up a well which never got finished because they all said "well, I'm just one insignificant animal, others will take finish it"?

Have you heard of the tale where some guy wanted to go to war for oil and hundreds of thousands of people said "No fucking way!" and kicked and screamed and did whatever they could to keep him from doing it, but it happened anyways?

One man or a million, the current system cannot be changed in any significant way. If there is, I would like to hear it.

[QUOTE=mungkay]Have you heard of the tale where some guy wanted to go to war for oil and hundreds of thousands of people said "No fucking way!" and kicked and screamed and did whatever they could to keep him from doing it, but it happened anyways?

One man or a million, the current system cannot be changed in any significant way. If there is, I would like to hear it.[/QUOTE]

This, is a very good fucking point.

Olduvai, Peak Oil, whatever.

Someone makes a thread about this every few months in every forum on the entire internet and then the more gullible forumgoers get all into it for about a week and then the thread dies and noone speaks of it for a few months.

[QUOTE=mungkay]It appears that by the time civiliation collapses, I will either be an old man or dead.

Is there any way to speed up the process?[/QUOTE]
me too, but there may be hope mungkay, china is now starting to build cars, and they are using incredible amounts of plastic for their growing industry. can you imagine even 1/4 of the population in china with cars?

[QUOTE=mungkay]Let me tell you something. You can spend all your time picking up soda cans and saving the whales and being eco this and enviro that, but all you're doing is trying to put a band-aid on a bullet wound.

This information you provide is not new to me. The decline of civilization is still in it's infancy, but it has started and it cannot be stopped, unless you're willing to attempt to otherthrow the government and corporate amarica, which as far as I can tell, would be the only way to do so at this point.

I say lets speed up this decline so that the world as we know it hits rock bottom, because it is not until the old system is broken down that we (as in people like you and me who are capable of free thought) can build a better one.[/QUOTE]
according to some people, tribes, groups the decline of civilization has been going on for some time because of the destructive practices it has been doing. cutting down too many trees, over population, nukes, etc..
i say vote bush into office and let that idiot help speed it up.
i'm not afraid of the destruction of civilization whether it be by war, famine, disease, or a mere whimper.

Its not that we are going to try and make it stop. Its going to happen when it will. I only posted it so that people can think about it. But at least the idea is planted so that if or when the second chance comes around, we will think a little better, longer and harder about shit like this so we dont make the same fucking mistake again.

Oh, it'll happen in far less than forty years. Consumption increases every year. I've already seen China pointed out and they are gonna be a huge drain. There's also the fact that every year in the U.S. alone there are more cars. And while you think you're using a lot of oil using plastics, you'd be shocked to find out how much is in everything you eat. We have been discussing this in an ecology class lately and basically half of the nutrition you get from an ear of corn comes from oil. It's used primarily in the pesticides but for other things, too.Any kind of crops grown in any civilized country are pretty much doused in oil. I'm shocked that the oil reserves are still going strong. It seems like everything is made from the stuff.

usable energy is the world's most critical resource then obviously it
is an important issue. Without volume energy we have no sustainable
water, we have no sustainable food, we now have no sustainable
healthcare.

So even in the best-case scenario, we're looking at an international financial meltdown and a collapse of the value of US dollar so severe that the Great Depression will look like the "good ole days."

[QUOTE=dim71886]Oh, it'll happen in far less than forty years. Consumption increases every year. I've already seen China pointed out and they are gonna be a huge drain. There's also the fact that every year in the U.S. alone there are more cars. And while you think you're using a lot of oil using plastics, you'd be shocked to find out how much is in everything you eat. We have been discussing this in an ecology class lately and basically half of the nutrition you get from an ear of corn comes from oil. It's used primarily in the pesticides but for other things, too.Any kind of crops grown in any civilized country are pretty much doused in oil. I'm shocked that the oil reserves are still going strong. It seems like everything is made from the stuff.[/QUOTE]
and you know the funny thing about that? they have developed strains through hybridization, genetic manipulation and just plain ol' evolution there are plants now becoming dependent on on these pesticides, chemical based fertilizers for survival.
i grow and save heirloom seeds , non-hybrids, and do it organically. hmmmmm..........i wonder how much shit i can trade for these seeds when the time comes, because money just might be fuckin worthless too. oh, its fuckin worthless NOW. but we've been conned into thinking it is.

Actually, I see it going down this way. Around the time of the great oil collapse as I'm calling it capitalism will not fall but flourish. All of the different car companies, industrial plants and many other areas of commerce will suddenly begin marketing hydrogen fuel cells and other sources of power, causing us to suddenly have to convert and spend billions of dollars on every new "oil free" product. This will fuel (excuse the pun) a new global economy that will surpass what we already have.

Think of it as the new DVD and VHS stuff that's been happening in recent years. Obviously it's not such a pressing issue, but the marketing execs made DVD out to be this must have item and everyone jumped on it. DVDs debuted in 1995 and by 2000 were regularly outselling VHS. Same goes for CDs vs. tapes, VHS vs. Betamax, ribbed vs. normal.

On the other hand, it will also probably produce unprecedented war as third world nations won't be able to afford the new technology while we, China and Japan, and Europe can.

Keep in mind that oil is not just used for engines.

the guy above me has it about right
all the car companies have already bought all the rights for cars that run on water and every other kind of solar or other power invented
whenever the oil does run out, it isn't going to be mad max beyond thunderdome its going to be just like now, you need to eventually get rid of your old tv and go [b]HDTV[/b] all the cool kids have it now, you want to be cool don't you ? it doesnt matter if you want to or not in a year or so you will have to buy a new tv because there will be no signal for the old fashioned tv anyway so NYAH !

there should be a global currency by then so no need to worry if our dollar is going to be worth as much as MBJUTU's shiny beads

any crop dependant on oil for survival will just be plowed under and twice as much crop planted to balance out any lost crop due to pesticide or whatnot

i can't wait till we run out of oil
i can't stand oiling all these machines at work each day

happy days are here again
and the times they are-a changing !

[QUOTE=mungkay]Keep in mind that oil is not just used for engines.[/QUOTE]
i don't know them all but here's a start,
oil,
gas,
diesel
lubricants of all kinds for engines to sex stuff
plastics (toys,dvds,computer parts, insulation, containers, tires, sex toys, cloths, insulators, televisions, phones, etc. )
pesticides
fertilizers (which i just don't get. most farmers raise animals too. they can collect all the fertilizer they need from the barns. i worked for a feed store once, and the government had a subsidy for farmers and chemical fertilizers. farmers got a soil analysis done, used that to get fertilizer paid for by the government, and it had to be fertilizers that are mined or are from chemicals)

[QUOTE=ivan]fertilizers (which i just don't get. most farmers raise animals too. they can collect all the fertilizer they need from the barns. i worked for a feed store once, and the government had a subsidy for farmers and chemical fertilizers. farmers got a soil analysis done, used that to get fertilizer paid for by the government, and it had to be fertilizers that are mined or are from chemicals)[/QUOTE]

The reason oil is used to synthesize fertilizers is because they can instill more nutrients to speed up crop growth. Going back to ecology again (that class is pretty damn useful) plant growth is sped up enormously by phosphorous and nitrogen. Normal animal fertilizer contains these but in much smaller doses than the chemical fertilizers.

And actually, the reason those farmers got that soil analysis done was to check and see how much phosphorous is in the soil of any region. This is because there's a point at which you can oversaturate the soil with it. Unfortunately, from Ohio to about Colorado, all of this extra phosphorous is pouring into the ocean thorugh the groundwater and local rivers. This is helping to cause deadzones by increasing algae growth. As the algae dies off it sinks to the bottom of the sea floor and expels tons of nitrogen which exhaust the oxygen supplies in the water around it, causing all life in that area to die or go emigrate.

So, we get oil that's infused with nutrients to spray on crops to feed people , these nutrients then travel to the ocean and destroy tons of life, and then we have fewer food sources as a result. Irony, anyone?

Take a look around and see how much plastic is in your home.

I suspect that when the annoncement is made that we're almost out of oil, the stock market is going to plummet like a motherfucker.

[QUOTE=dim71886]Actually, I see it going down this way. Around the time of the great oil collapse as I'm calling it capitalism will not fall but flourish. All of the different car companies, industrial plants and many other areas of commerce will suddenly begin marketing hydrogen fuel cells and other sources of power, causing us to suddenly have to convert and spend billions of dollars on every new "oil free" product. This will fuel (excuse the pun) a new global economy that will surpass what we already have.

Think of it as the new DVD and VHS stuff that's been happening in recent years. Obviously it's not such a pressing issue, but the marketing execs made DVD out to be this must have item and everyone jumped on it. DVDs debuted in 1995 and by 2000 were regularly outselling VHS. Same goes for CDs vs. tapes, VHS vs. Betamax, ribbed vs. normal.

On the other hand, it will also probably produce unprecedented war as third world nations won't be able to afford the new technology while we, China and Japan, and Europe can.[/QUOTE]
however, you may be right, the ability to make those "new products" will take oil to make. so they best start NOW, or forever hold the lost possibility

Don't forget, petroleum is a replacement fuel: it only became economically feasable to develop after we started running out of whales. I'm skeptical of definite numbers on when we'll deplete fossil fuels, because a lot of that depends on how fast the world develops economically, but when high gas prices are no longer the result of misguided foreign policy, but of actual scarcity, then economics will force people to come up with something different.

The fact that hydrogen is 'expensive,' for instance, tells me that the trade off for that apparently clean fuel is a process that uses more resources than you can justify while there's still plenty of petroleum.

The switch-over needn't be traumatic. Cars don't last that long, and when it becomes much more expensive to feed your five year old gasoline car than to feed a new one that runs on (whatever they come up with), people will switch.

And the switch will put a bunch of people in the oil business out of work, while creating jobs in some other energy source. We're not worse off for the fact that computers replaced Linotype machines, there's no reason to expect that similar changes to other sectors would be different.

The loss of whale oil did not cripple the industrial revolution (though it would be nice if we'd switched while there were still more whales in the water).

The thing I fear is people using tax dollars and regulation to promote specific winners based on ideology rather than the virtue of a given technology or fuel. I live in a sparse, sprawling metropolitan area, and every few years some yahoo puts light rail on the ballot even though there's no ridership base. Light rail works in a place like Manhattan, but it's stupid in a Midwestern sprawl. The proof is in the dollars: those billions of dollars it costs to build and run the train represents resources (like oil & coal). The train just looks clean because the smokestack is on a power plant miles away.

As far as bio-fuel goes, I know a guy who plays with french fry grease to run his F-350 diesel for something like 15¢ a gallon, but he has a lot of hobby time involved in making the fuel. Collecting it, straining it, adding the anti-gelling agent & alcohol to it, etc. If he buys it from a coop it's as expensive as gas or diesel because they tax it.

Biofuel may end up making sense, but the main thing is not to look at any technology as a good in itself. They've been recycling aluminum for 100 years because it makes economic sense (it takes 20 times as much energy to make new aluminum as it does to recycle it, so Reynolds & friends have been paying for scrap aluminum practically forever). Recycling newspapers is about as environmentally friendly as an oil well on fire, because of the noxious leftovers of the recycling process and the fact that you can farm more pulp trees very cleanly. Recycling is just a possibility, it is only 'good' or 'bad' relative to other alternatives, all of which have trade-offs.

Which gets to the heart of what I think derails a lot of people's thinking when it comes to things like the oil biz. There is no perfect energy source, just like everything else in life, there's a trade-off. There are also market externalities that confuse the decision process, distort the evaluation of the pros & cons. The worst thing you can do is let government get involved in it. Then you're sure to get the compassion of the IRS, the price sensitivity of the Pentagon and the transparency of the CIA involved in making critical decisions...

[QUOTE=dim71886]The reason oil is used to synthesize fertilizers is because they can instill more nutrients to speed up crop growth. Going back to ecology again (that class is pretty damn useful) plant growth is sped up enormously by phosphorous and nitrogen. Normal animal fertilizer contains these but in much smaller doses than the chemical fertilizers.

And actually, the reason those farmers got that soil analysis done was to check and see how much phosphorous is in the soil of any region. This is because there's a point at which you can oversaturate the soil with it. Unfortunately, from Ohio to about Colorado, all of this extra phosphorous is pouring into the ocean thorugh the groundwater and local rivers. This is helping to cause deadzones by increasing algae growth. As the algae dies off it sinks to the bottom of the sea floor and expels tons of nitrogen which exhaust the oxygen supplies in the water around it, causing all life in that area to die or go emigrate.

So, we get oil that's infused with nutrients to spray on crops to feed people , these nutrients then travel to the ocean and destroy tons of life, and then we have fewer food sources as a result. Irony, anyone?[/QUOTE]
let's also look at what synthesized fertilizers do to the soil. they are HARSH. and have a higher salts content to them. ever tasted it? it's very salty. this high salts content builds up over time, and destroys the natural beneficial bacteria in the soil, drives worms out, or just lowers their population through death, etc.. this beneficial bacteria and worms are essential to soil health and productivity. the begins to compact and less nutrients are available to be taken up by plants, so the plants have to be fertilized even more, and then there is a saturation point and the land becomes unhealthy and no pint in trying to grow anything in it. then more land has to be utilized. instead of using natural fertilizer, crop rotation, etc.. which is more feasible, and healthy for the environment , etc.. less money needed from taxes for subsidizing a market that makes no sense.

since the topic and the even the title are the exact same, this thread has been merged with the one started by our good friend Lenny, back in 01-15-2004.

enjoy.

omg, pcj - - - i swear I did a search!

[SIZE=1]forgive me for i have....[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Minuet]omg, pcj - - - i swear I did a search!

[SIZE=1]forgive me for i have....[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
no worries, i dunno that it searches the whole politics forum, or searches it well. i searched for it as well, got no results. but i knew there had been at least one other thread. i think there might be another back in there somewhere, but i could be mistaken...

good job on ressurecting it though...

reading this article reminds me of a show called 'scare tactics' its also something your vice-president mr.cheney employs quite well.

we better start warming up all those nuclear reactors we shut down. that or invade mars. they have tons of oil. and then we'll need to build the interplanetary pipeline. human civilization will reach such astounding heights.

[QUOTE=leonardshelby]Yeah the guy is basically saying "RUN FOR YOUR FUCKING LIVES." [/QUOTE]

hes also saying

AND WHILE YOU'RE RUNNING, BUY MY BOOK

as a side note, this guy is an idiot. some interesting ideas, but, he's just some law school graduate. last i checked the LSAT didn't require a macro-economics, inter-political, chemistry thesis.

[QUOTE=Proton]that or invade mars. they have tons of oil. and then we'll need to build the interplanetary pipeline. human civilization will reach such astounding heights.[/QUOTE]

I almost posted something saying that we could go to other sources outside of the Earth for oil but then I realized that to get fossil fuels you kind of have to have fossils.

if the running water theory holds, it could possibly have had plant life, and then fossils. but really, martians are made out of a petrol based substance, we just need to pop 'em in a blender and then pour into the gas tank.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]no worries, i dunno that it searches the whole politics forum, or searches it well. i searched for it as well, got no results. but i knew there had been at least one other thread. i think there might be another back in there somewhere, but i could be mistaken...

good job on ressurecting it though...[/QUOTE]
okie, goosh. i dont want to disappoint...

I used to work as a cashier in convenience store/gas station places. People blamed me for the price of gas. And of Diet Coke.

Of course, Texaco didn't make a price move without consulting me...

One of the customers who visited me talked often of an 'engine that ran on water' that had been developed long ago, but the patent had been bought out by Big Oil and they weren't going to let it out.

He told me this more than once, even though I always asked if he meant the steam engine...

this thread totally rulez

[QUOTE=Minuet]omg, pcj - - - i swear I did a search!
[spaces]
[SIZE=1]forgive me for i have....[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
look..she even copied my style, except she forgot the *. *

Also, this thread reminds of Tommy Corn in the film; I <3 Huckabees. I tried to find a photo of the character, but instead I came up with the [url=http://tommycorn.blogspot.com/]Tommy Corn blog[/url]. say what!?!

[SIZE=1]*don't worry...search is wack sometimes, but you did a search is what counts..me don't like it when peeps make clones[/SIZE]

Oh, there's always new engines being made. There's the one you mentioned that runs on water, one runs on canola oil, there are a number of engines that run on animal feces, some run on hemp. And yet none have caught on for various reasons.

what we need is an engine run on love.

I read this a while back. To tell you the truth i've read nearly every end of the world scenario out there, and always found why it couldnt happen or wasnt that bad, or it was 1000 years away. When i read this i freaked out. It was completely possible. It could be happening. Evidence shows that it IS happening!
Then i remembered hydrogen. And oil under alaska.

[QUOTE=cantonrep]NEWARK, Del. -- Like a mutant blob in a bad horror movie, an oil slick first thought to be relatively small has grown bigger and more menacing over the past week, oozing its way down both banks of the Delaware River.

When the Greek tanker Athos I began leaking heavy Venezuelan crude oil into the river the night of Nov. 26, it appeared to be a manageable spill confined to a riverside terminal -- just 30,000 gallons, according to estimates. But authorities now are warning that it could be as much as 473,000 gallons, a gooey mess that has stained to 70 miles of shoreline across three states.

Making matters worse, investigators are trying to determine whether a gash and a puncture in the ship’s hull were caused by an 11-ton, 13-foot-wide propeller that fell off a dredge owned by the Army Corps of Engineers in April and was left on the river bottom.

The muck has killed birds, fish and turtles. It has shut down a nuclear plant and threatened a dozen freshwater streams and tributaries. It has slid past a pristine nature reserve and spread to within three miles of drinking water intakes for Philadelphia and southern New Jersey.

And it was still oozing Friday, leaving a black smear four feet high along the stone seawall that keeps the Delaware from flooding Fort Mifflin, an historic Revolutionary War battlement. Stiff sea winds spread a sharp chemical odor across the freshwater tidal marshes that straddle Interstate 95.

The spill is not exactly the Exxon Valdez -- 11 million gallons dumped in Alaska in 1989 -- but it could be the worst ever on the Delaware, surpassing the 300,000 gallons spilled by a tanker in 1989.

And it has surprised and shaken a region where most people are only vaguely aware of the massive refineries that dot the uninhabited, low marshlands just south of Philadelphia. Tankers deliver a million barrels of crude each day to the refineries that produce 70 percent of the gasoline sold in the northeastern United States, according to the local maritime exchange.

More than 1,000 workers were along the river Friday, trying to contain the spill with 94,000 feet of absorbent booms. Despite all efforts, the environmental and economic damages probably will be in the millions, authorities said. The Delaware Bay is home to thousands of migratory shorebirds and the world’s largest population of horseshoe crabs.

“No matter how good the cleanup is, the damage is irreparable. This is a real catastrophe,” said Maya van Rossum, a lawyer and environmentalist who calls herself the “Delaware Riverkeeper.” For the past week, Van Rossum has stomped along creek beds and marshlands, taking photographs and documenting the effects of the spill.

The oil has spread from Pennsylvania and New Jersey past Newark, where on Friday staffers and volunteers at Tri-State Bird Rescue & Research Inc. were using diluted dishwashing liquid to dissolve oil from the feathers of ducks, Canada geese and seagulls -- and from the shell of a single painted turtle. A pair of rare bald eagles smeared with oil had been spotted but not recovered by rescuers, van Rossum said.

“The oil burns their skin and eyes and destroys their feather structure -- it’s nasty stuff,” Chris Motoyoshi, the rescue center’s executive director, said as workers struggled to get a feeding solution down the throat of an uncooperative gull.

Shipping restrictions have been imposed on the Philadelphia port, the East Coast’s leading destination for cocoa beans from Ivory Coast and for South American fruit -- particularly grapes from Chile and bananas from Costa Rica. Ships were waiting Friday to be washed clean of oil before heading back out to sea, with the delays costing tens of thousands of dollars a day.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which has placed oil snares on the river, said Friday that the spill ranges from “very light sheening to heavy oiling” along the 70-mile slick.

The 750-foot Athos I was carrying 14 million gallons of oil when it began leaking at an oil company dock. Authorities first said only 30,000 gallons had seeped out, but four days later the U.S. Coast Guard announced that 473,500 gallons were missing from the tanker. Divers found a 6-foot gash and a 2-foot puncture in the hull.

The Athos I is a single-hulled tanker. Federal laws passed after the Exxon Valdez spill required single-hulled ships in the United States to be replaced by double-hulled by 2015.

The tanker’s operator, Rsakos Shipping & Trading of Athens, has said insurance will cover the costs of the cleanup. Federal law limits owners’ liability based on a ship’s tonnage. In the case of the Athos I, the liability would be about $45 million.[/QUOTE]

[URL=http://www.marinergroup.com/oil-spill-history.htm]Heres some oil spill history[/URL]

The creations of the Soylent Corporation come in three diverse flavors:
Soylent Red, Soylent Yellow, and Soylent Green.

The term 'Soylent' was made to suggest the combination of soy and lentil which are the main ingredients that the Soylent Corporation has revealed to be within their creations.

Soylent Green is the most nutritious and tasty, and due to the high demand there are often shortages of this particular flavor at feeding times. So, you guys better get down to a feeding area awfully early to get a chance at Soylent's Green scrumptious taste!

[QUOTE=DishFish]The creations of the Soylent Corporation come in three diverse flavors:
Soylent Red, Soylent Yellow, and Soylent Green.

The term 'Soylent' was made to suggest the combination of soy and lentil which are the main ingredients that the Soylent Corporation has revealed to be within their creations.

Soylent Green is the most nutritious and tasty, and due to the high demand there are often shortages of this particular flavor at feeding times. So, you guys better get down to a feeding area awfully early to get a chance at Soylent's Green scrumptious taste![/QUOTE]

Soylent Green is made out of people! It's people!

New Soylent Corporation creations:

Soylent Lite, this time its babies!
Clear Soylent: Clearly more people, clearly more taste.

[QUOTE=DishFish]New Soylent Corporation creations:

Soylent Lite, this time its babies!
Clear Soylent: Clearly more people, clearly more taste.[/QUOTE]

mmm mmm good