Islamic Fundamentalism

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]ok, yes, war is bad, we kill people for wrong reasons, i get all that, and i agree with it mostly. but the difference is, SOLDIERS, who sign up to fight/protect their country, are different from CIVILIANS. Suicide bombers attack CIVILIANS. NOT SOLDIERS. do you not see the inherent problem with this?[/QUOTE]
That point is not even...

try Hiroshima, there were civilians and not just 2 or 3.

ok, why is the past being brought up? i'm talking about CURRENT EVENTS. last time i looked, we aren't nuking anyone. also, that was an act of WAR. like, actual war, with congress approval and everything.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]ah, but love, guns, and money are real.[/QUOTE]
drugs and money are tangible. love isn't. nor is a diety. to me fighting over a relatively unimportant item such as drugs or money is worse than fighting over an ideal. ideals have purposes, drugs and money have uses, but no purpose.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]ok, why is the past being brought up? i'm talking about CURRENT EVENTS. last time i looked, we aren't nuking anyone. also, that was an act of WAR. like, actual war, with congress approval and everything.[/QUOTE]
you mean our own government approved our ability to drop a bomb? perhaps we should have seeked their government's spproval instead. to our government, it means nothing. sure it was war, but to them, this is a time of war too. we're not nuking anyone now, but hey, we still have the capability to do so, even though we tell other countries that their having them is "wrong". again it's our bs against their bs. our just looks better because we came up with it.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]ok, why is the past being brought up? i'm talking about CURRENT EVENTS. last time i looked, we aren't nuking anyone. also, that was an act of WAR. like, actual war, with congress approval and everything.[/QUOTE]
ok yes they are past events, never mind i didn't know we were just talking exclusively of current events.

I am not even going to answer how actual wars have rules wich involves civilians and all that, specially when you kill big quantities of them in a couple of bombings.

Never mind continue with the discussion.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]drugs and money are tangible. love isn't. nor is a diety. to me fighting over a relatively unimportant item such as drugs or money is worse than fighting over an ideal. ideals have purposes, drugs and money have uses, but no purpose.[/QUOTE]
my reality is tangible. and i would argue that love is tanglible.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]you mean our own government approved our ability to drop a bomb? perhaps we should have seeked their government's spproval instead. to our government, it means nothing. sure it was war, but to them, this is a time of war too. we're not nuking anyone now, but hey, we still have the capability to do so, even though we tell other countries that their having them is "wrong". again it's our bs against their bs. our just looks better because we came up with it.[/QUOTE]
whether you like it or not, our government is a representation of who we are as a nation. i wish i could be as enlightened and see everything in such a taoist perspective, but the 'evils' that we do as a nation are no way equatable to the 'evils' these insane people are doing. this idea, which one could make a case that it's stemmed in catholic/puritan guilt, that we as a country are so back and commit such horrible acts and that there is nothing else in this world that could be worse is infuriating. all these loose analogies and comparisons to our domestic problems and whatever are ludicrous.

[QUOTE=Xk3zofrenik]ok yes they are past events, never mind i didn't know we were just talking exclusively of current events.

I am not even going to answer how actual wars have rules wich involves civilians and all that, specially when you kill big quantities of them in a couple of bombings.

Never mind continue with the discussion.[/QUOTE]
there are rules to war... to which we follow. answer me this... do the islamic fundamentalist loonies follow the geneva convention in their quest for their 72 virgins?

keep in mind, i haven't even brought up the issue of the complete and total oppression of females in their society.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]my reality is tangible. and i would argue that love is tanglible.[/QUOTE]
tangible - Existing physically; that which can be touched.
love is not tangible. it may be real, but it cannot be percieved with the 5 senses alone.
reality is inherently biased and subjective.
back to the topic. be it land, god or money, none of these reasons can be [I]rationally[/I] considered as a valid reason to take the life of another living creature. there's more than enough land, god is intangible (arguably just an ideal) so is not something that should impede anyone else from continuing their existance in their normal fashion, and money is merely a paper object that holds no value, humans give value to it instead.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]keep in mind, i haven't even brought up the issue of the complete and total oppression of females in their society.[/QUOTE]
which also has no bearing on this conversation.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]whether you like it or not, our government is a representation of who we are as a nation. i wish i could be as enlightened and see everything in such a taoist perspective, but the 'evils' that we do as a nation are no way equatable to the 'evils' these insane people are doing. this idea, which one could make a case that it's stemmed in catholic/puritan guilt, that we as a country are so back and commit such horrible acts and that there is nothing else in this world that could be worse is infuriating. all these loose analogies and comparisons to our domestic problems and whatever are ludicrous.[/QUOTE]
you just keep helping me out here. they are doing what they see fit as an individual. we are doing what we're told to do by our government. our government is making the decision for us to wage war, to destroy towns, to overthrow governments where it's not wanted, all the while destroying many times more innocents than these suicide bombers cause. suicide bombing has a dual purpose, to kill (slightly minor purpose) and to terrify (main purpose). the few is making the decisions for the many, and telling them that it's justified, whether it is or not. i think that's much more severe than an individual occasionally blowing themself up, and taking a couple people with them.

i don't think they are individuals. how can they be acting as individuals when they are brainwashed as children with razors and fundamentalism? and they really aren't the few... islamic fundamentalists are a huge group of islam as a whole..
oh yes, we're such evil bastards because we have a government but whatever.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]i don't think they are individuals. how can they be acting as individuals when they are brainwashed as children with razors and fundamentalism? and they really aren't the few... islamic fundamentalists are a huge group of islam as a whole..
oh yes, we're such evil bastards because we have a government but whatever.[/QUOTE]
they're brainwashed, we're brainwashed. they kill we kill. they kill innocents, we kill innnocents.
the only differences are on what scale do we kill? (we kill more innocents than they would ever hope to)
what methods are used? (bombs, suicide bombing, guns etc...)
and under what reason? (they use god, we use land, politics, money etc..)

there is no way you can say we're any better than that.

we are better because we are not INSANE.

n e i l i ' m g o i n g t o s p e a k v e r y s l o w l y...

our
soldiers
have
killed
many,
MANY
innocent
civilians
in
iraq.

as
many,
in
fact,
as
died
on
sept.
11.

and...we can get rid of our president with an election if we don't like him, huh? not if it goes like it did last time...

neil
im surprised you havent brought this up
all those massive bombing campaigns
we used magic bombs
they only kill soldiers

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]we are better because we are not INSANE.[/QUOTE]
says you.

[QUOTE=insomnomaniac]n e i l i ' m g o i n g t o s p e a k v e r y s l o w l y...

our
soldiers
have
killed
many,
MANY
innocent
civilians
in
iraq.

as
many,
in
fact,
as
died
on
sept.
11.

and...we can get rid of our president with an election if we don't like him, huh? not if it goes like it did last time...[/QUOTE]
i a m g o i n g t o s p e a k v e r y c o n d e s c e n d i n g l y.

you're a woman, right? if you were an arab, you'd be worth about 5 dollars. good work.

i know, we should just make a time machine and go back and erase any killing, ever. take away war and make rainbows everywhere. you ultra liberals make me sick.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]says you.[/QUOTE]
and you say they are just right as rain.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]i a m g o i n g t o s p e a k v e r y c o n d e s c e n d i n g l y.

you're a woman, right? if you were an arab, you'd be worth about 5 dollars. good work.

i know, we should just make a time machine and go back and erase any killing, ever. take away war and make rainbows everywhere. you ultra liberals make me sick.[/QUOTE]
what does the women thing have to do with the fact that no matter what, we're all from the same pond, and the same set of dip-shit genes.
it's another topic, and another bs excuse you're using to try to console yourself that you're not as monsterous, or a part of anything as monsterous as how you percieve their actions to be. i could go on a whole tirade about how you're perception of their treatment of women is another bit of propaganda the US is feedin' you, or how you probably haven't even done any research on the topic (or if you have, you've only done a little "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"), or even how the way their culture treats their citizens really isn't any of america's concern especially considering that we do the same thing, just to other categories of people, but hey, i'm smart enough to know that you're not going to stop and listen for a second, and realize that you don't have any argument to back your ass up on.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]you're a woman, right? if you were an arab, you'd be worth about 5 dollars. good work.[/QUOTE]

So does Suzy on the corner, but your are right she is not that oppressed because she loves you long time...

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]and you say they are just right as rain.[/QUOTE]
that's an assumption you're making.

i'm saying they're no more brainwashed than you and i are. i personally think anyone who would intentionally strap an explosive to themself and detonate it is disturbed. of course i think any country that tries to tell other countries to be just like them is pretty disturbed.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]there are rules to war... to which we follow. answer me this... do the islamic fundamentalist loonies follow the geneva convention in their quest for their 72 virgins?[/QUOTE]

See gotcha. The US didn't followed them. Why should they?
What makes you think there are no small number of terrotists killing around anyone who doesn't share it's point of view?

In some contries they are called guerrillas, in the US special ops.

The difference between a terrorist act and a secret operation is the Press Coverage.

Talking about press coverage, do you have an idea about how many civilians have been killed already?

Do you know that the soldiers of Iraq have little to go by differencing who is enemy and who is not and in many istances they shot first and ask questions later, mind you that this is not their territory.

Hell, liberating is such a kind and distracting word, enough to erase the invasion bit of the action. Kind of like the same way they liberated the piece of land i am standing one, specifically the mines in the town where my mother grew up and saw trucks night and day, yeah i bet those mines are very free now...

But hey i am not complaining about the so-called Freedom the US lives by. To me the only concern is there is eventually peace so that i can enjoy the money from this little wars. I am not going to waste my youth thinking about some rag heads who shoot a woman every five seconds, just like other generations were waiting for that soviet missile any time now...

However i do not bullshit myself and eschew the little propaganda that the US has. I think you should consider that.

[QUOTE=Xk3zofrenik]See gotcha. The US didn't followed them. Why should they?
What makes you think there are no small number of terrotists killing around anyone who doesn't share it's point of view?

In some contries they are called guerrillas, in the US special ops.

The difference between a terrorist act and a secret operation is the Press Coverage.

Talking about press coverage, do you have an idea about how many civilians have been killed already?

Do you know that the soldiers of Iraq have little to go by differencing who is enemy and who is not and in many istances they shot first and ask questions later, mind you that this is not their territory.

Hell, liberating is such a kind and distracting word, enough to erase the invasion bit of the action. Kind of like the same way they liberated the piece of land i am standing one, specifically the mines in the town where my mother grew up and saw trucks night and day, yeah i bet those mines are very free now...

But hey i am not complaining about the so-called Freedom the US lives by. To me the only concern is there is eventually peace so that i can enjoy the money from this little wars. I am not going to waste my youth thinking about some rag heads who shoot a woman every five seconds, just like other generations were waiting for that soviet missile any time now...

However i do not bullshit myself and eschew the little propaganda that the US has. I think you should consider that.[/QUOTE]
dude, the iraqi soldiers WERE DRESSING AS CIVILIANS.
whatever, both of you claim that i'm the one brainwashed, whatever. i don't agree with the war or our actions in general, but somehow because we are at war by texas pete, all of the sudden, that somehow justifies their fucked up society. i'm sorry, no matter how fucked up our own country is, and the religious whack jobs we got running around in the bible belt, it doesn't equate with the level of insanity that runs their society. there comes a point where we have to look at the state of the world and say, we are more fucking civilized than this, and if you're not, then you need to change.
whatever, i'm tired of debating with people who are just as bad as the war mongers.

Jerry Springer's a mark of civilization?

No. He's a mark of technology.

Wal-mart does not civilization make.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]dude, the iraqi soldiers WERE DRESSING AS CIVILIANS.
whatever, both of you claim that i'm the one brainwashed, whatever. i don't agree with the war or our actions in general, but somehow because we are at war by texas pete, all of the sudden, that somehow justifies their fucked up society. i'm sorry, no matter how fucked up our own country is, and the religious whack jobs we got running around in the bible belt, it doesn't equate with the level of insanity that runs their society. there comes a point where we have to look at the state of the world and say, we are more fucking civilized than this, and if you're not, then you need to change.
whatever, i'm tired of debating with people who are just as bad as the war mongers.[/QUOTE]
again neil, how can you be so sure that they're insane? how can you say that they're brainwashed and you've got everything in place? that you've got all the facts you need to decide who's right and who's wrong? yes, blowing onesself up is not the sign of a well-adjusted individual. we all get that. that is the only basis of your argument. sure islamic fundamentalists [i]might[/i] want to blow themself up, but that doesn't mean all islamic fundamentalists want to blow themselves up. they're just doing the same thing you say america should do, "look at the state of the world and say, we are more fucking civilized than this, and if you're not, then you need to change". their goal is to make their religious creed the law of the land. america's goal is to make our political creed the law of the land. they kill a couple innocents, we kill innocents in large quantities. you say america is justified in forcing the world to conform to our standards because we are more "civilized". well they think we are anything but civilized, they view us the same way we view them, as an obstacle to overcome in the movement to make the world just like us. think about it.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]dude, the iraqi soldiers WERE DRESSING AS CIVILIANS.
whatever, both of you claim that i'm the one brainwashed, whatever. i don't agree with the war or our actions in general, but somehow because we are at war by texas pete, all of the sudden, that somehow justifies their fucked up society. i'm sorry, no matter how fucked up our own country is, and the religious whack jobs we got running around in the bible belt, it doesn't equate with the level of insanity that runs their society. there comes a point where we have to look at the state of the world and say, we are more fucking civilized than this, and if you're not, then you need to change.
whatever, i'm tired of debating with people who are just as bad as the war mongers.[/QUOTE]
We could be just as insane, but you are right they are more insane at the moment, if it was the US with all that weaponry probably little of the world would be left.

I am content with them being insane on their own turf, as long as they don't step a foot out of it is cool. Hell i am not going to give a shit about someone in africa dying of starvation a second ago, might as well not start about an iraqi shooting a woman for no reason.

Now playing the little psychiatrist in the world, deciding who is insane and who is not, who should take bombs ermm ... pills and who shouldn't is a far too expensive job. Who the fuck do you think would be paying it?

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]again neil, how can you be so sure that they're insane? how can you say that they're brainwashed and you've got everything in place? that you've got all the facts you need to decide who's right and who's wrong? because i grew up and realized that existentialism is bullshit. the idea that nothing can be quantified is ridiculous.

if they don't(and by don't, i mean be a martyr, not just limited to blowing themselves up), they most likely are not fundamentalists. that is what is wrong. religious superiority is both outdated and wrong which is democracy. yea, i can see how you can make a strong argument that democracy is the same as a religion, you fucking pinko a couple? A COUPLE? fuck you. that's fucking insulting. here you are, telling me i haven't done enough research and then you come out and say something absolutely ignorant as that. our women are not second class citizens. our regime does not support killing in the name of a thousand-year old book, written by "god".

[QUOTE=Xk3zofrenik]We could be just as insane, but you are right they are more insane at the moment, if it was the US with all that weaponry probably little of the world would be left.

I am content with them being insane on their own turf, as long as they don't step a foot out of it is cool. Hell i am not going to give a shit about someone in africa dying of starvation a second ago, might as well not start about an iraqi shooting a woman for no reason.

Now playing the little psychiatrist in the world, deciding who is insane and who is not, who should take bombs ermm ... pills and who shouldn't is a far too expensive job. Who the fuck do you think would be paying it?[/QUOTE]
huh? are you saying that iraq/the middle east has more weaponry than the US? surely you're not. i'm confused. for the world psychiatrist thing... as i may or may not have stated in the thread already(i cross-posted this in a few forums and had much better debate on a comic book message board), i think that while the US should push for change, and for social progress, the ultimate responsibility for reform lies on the shoulders of the muslim community.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]because i grew up and realized that existentialism is bullshit. the idea that nothing can be quantified is ridiculous.
so you're saying, you know this to be true because you grew up brainwashed in a different manner?

if they don't blow themselves up, they may still be fundamentalists, just not suicide bombers.

again, says you. i personally think that political superiority is both outdated and wrong. religious superiority is no more wrong that political superiority.

nice insult, if i knew what it meant i might give a shit that you've insulted me. democracy or not, it still doesn't make it right. you've been so inundated with this western thinking that we need to make other countries/cultural groups as "civilized" as we supposedly are, that you can't grasp the concept that, oh shit, we're doing the same fucking thing that we're getting pissed at them for doing.

how is that ignorant? comparatively they've killed only a tiny percent of a fraction of the innocent that we have. hell, in one bomb we've killed more than they could ever hope to kill.

they're not? look at the amount of women in business positions of authority.

no, they support killing in the name of a few hundered year old paper named the "constitution" written by people did exist, but basically wrote it so they wouldn't have to pay taxes.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]huh? are you saying that iraq/the middle east has more weaponry than the US? surely you're not. i'm confused. for the world psychiatrist thing... as i may or may not have stated in the thread already(i cross-posted this in a few forums and had much better debate on a comic book message board), i think that while the US should push for change, and for social progress, the ultimate responsibility for reform lies on the shoulders of the muslim community.[/QUOTE]
how did you get a better debate?

He must've got lots of "Yeah!", "Tight, dewd!", "All right!", "You roawk!", "mAeirac rluse!" and "Pass the spliff, dude... You're hawggin'..."

'Course, I'm joking, but still.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]how did you get a better debate?[/QUOTE]
well, for one, there were more people chiming in than one obtuse guy who seems to think logic is an outdated mode. plus, there are actually people there who aren't liberals. so, for someone like me, who isn't liberal or conservative, it provides a much better dialogue.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]i personally think anyone who would intentionally strap an explosive to themself and detonate it is disturbed. of course i think any country that tries to tell other countries to be just like them is pretty disturbed.[/QUOTE]

amen.

hooray for complexity!!

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]well, for one, there were more people chiming in than one obtuse guy who seems to think logic is an outdated mode. plus, there are actually people there who aren't liberals. so, for someone like me, who isn't liberal or conservative, it provides a much better dialogue.[/QUOTE]
so you're saying s'qarr is right when he said:

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]so you're saying s'qarr is right when he said:[/QUOTE]
miles ahead, indeed.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]miles ahead, indeed.[/QUOTE]
you think a debate is good when everyone agrees with you? that's not a debate, that's called bitching and moaning.

[QUOTE=trypdwyre]you think a debate is good when everyone agrees with you? that's not a debate, that's called bitching and moaning.[/QUOTE]
you're much too smart to say such stupid things.

I agree with Neil in that extremism of any kind is not right. Religious, political or otherwise. There is no justification for killing someone in the name of your own values, but there is some justification in a reaction. Islamic fundamentalism is an easy target because it is being force fed to us by the media, but it is certainly not the most common or the most evil.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]you're much too smart to say such stupid things.[/QUOTE]
thank you and really, how is that a stupid statement, you said as much in your previous post.
it's hardly my fault that you don't consider a debate good unless everyone else is patting your back.

[QUOTE=NeilFarted]1)yes, christian fundamentalists used to be war mongering, violent idiots. you didn't even mention the salem which hunts. the point is, christianity and western culture evolved/matured enough where it wasn't tolerated any more. not so in the arabic world. We, as a society do not tolerate religious fanaticism that leads to violence. Look at Waco. they were just gathering weapons. they didn't even give the threat of violence, and we still came crashing down on their heads.
we didn't get rid of it or evolve or mature.
we just got better at disguising it.
[QUOTE=NeilFarted]so what is the action? and what is the re-action?[/QUOTE]
we've been fucking the islamic community in the ass for the last 60 years and they're getting just a bit tired of it. i thought it was pretty obvious.

just fucking think about it. people aren't born religiously batshit insane like that. there's got to be a [i]reason[/i] for that. their lives are so fucking desperate that they've let themselves fall prey to this fucked up system of beliefs that justifies some absolutely ridiculous and terrible things. and who's responsible for the desperation in their lives? the US and the rest of the western world in general. we've fucked with their land, lives and resources so much ever since the fall of the Ottoman Empire that the whole region is in turmoil. we support leaders that will be our good little lapdogs and in return allow them to do whatever they want. (see: letting saddam gas the kurds) we've got soldiers all over their countries, our culture is attempting to erradicate theirs, our money holds up half of the tyrants that oppress them, we've taken control of their nations and then divided them up as we see fit - totally ignoring cultural/religious differences that end up resulting in fucking messes like Iraq and our bombs that are supposed to 'liberate' them end up killing thousands of civilians and even more soldiers that probably joined for the same reasons people join our military - they don't see any other viable options in their life. it's a fucking hopeless and desperate situation, so how can you act surprised and outraged that they're lashing out at us with all that they can muster? they suicide bomb cos they don't have planes and tanks. they kill civilians cos they have absolutely no chance to compete with our military. it's the same thing we did in the revolution. we couldn't possibly hope to beat the british at their own game so we changed the rules. we fought like those dirty savage indian folk and i'm sure britain thought the same of us as we think of terrorists today.
[QUOTE=NeilFarted]...a country? what are you trying to say?[/QUOTE]
a country we invaded cos they are part of an "AXIS OF EVIL". and god's got our back. cos we're righteous.

what were you saying about batshit insane?
[QUOTE=NeilFarted]oh, come on... i mean, i don't agree with our actions in iraq, but there is no way you can seriously compare our actions in iraq with islamic suicide bombers.[/QUOTE]
yeah i know we've killed waaaaaaaaaay more innocent civilians than them. i'm pretty sure we could compete with russia and germany for the most 'innocents' killed throughout the last 200 years. is china in this competition, too? i want to see someone research the fuck out of this and publish it. that would rock. a list of the top 10 most murderous countries throughout the last X amount of years.

hEh!