Giggan

I've been completely ignoring polls, but this is the second time I've heard the allusion to Reagan's landslide to predict Obama's. Sad, but probably true. I remember my friend Joe saying during the primary, as Barack was picking up speed, "No matter how good he may seem to be doing, the united states will not elect someone named 'Barack Hussein Obama' president in 2008."

Who knows. I already voted, and it was not for Obamayamama. Either way, things are going down, we just gotta be careful who becomes the one to pick them up. We're in a very pre-Hitler germany position right now, no joke.

Maybe if our country had been ravaged by a decade of domestic war, I could see this as a pre-Hitler situation. Right now most of us are just whining about gas prices. Please don't abuse Godwin's Law.

Gas is down under $3 around here. That's almost unbelieveable, especially around these parts.

i said a month ago McCain was gonna be the republican Mondale.

2.37 here in san antonio. I filled up my civic for $26.00

I fill up my ride for $9!

But gas is still over 3 here, I think 3.40...

I feel like we're back in 2001!

This is certainly a pre-Hiltered Germany type discussion we're having here.

2001 was most definitely Post-Hitler.

Pre Hitler economy crashing due to terrible inflation (on its way after the bailout). Rising superpower owns us (China, was Russia then). Massive disapproval of our 'leader'. People demanding radical, immediate change.

MSR.

how do you people vote early, is it a state thing?

Absentee. I'm a NH resident in Florida.

Okay, I will.

Well, off the top of my head I know that ethnic groups like the Jews were being forcibly branded and, as time went on, made to move into urban ghettos, like in Warsaw. No one could argue that there is a lot of segregation in the US, especially in the cities, but for the most part none of it is government ordered, and even less of it is drawn on religious lines. We have no governmental penalty for homosexuals...true, they're not equal citizens, but they're no longer being thrown into jails or declared mentally incompetent.

From an article called "Life Before the Holocaust:"

http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/voices/testimonies/life/backgd/bef...

During the early 1930s, at the time of the Nazi rise to power, Germany was experiencing great economic and social hardship. The country:

* had to pay enormous compensation to the Allies as a result of losing WWI
* had to adhere to the Treaty of Versailles, whereby they could no longer have a large army and had to give up land
* experienced severe inflation and economic instability
* experienced great unemployment

Although, as you said, we are paying money to a rising superpower, that seems to be something we went into with our eyes open, and something that we are continuing to indulge ourselves in. It's not recompense for a war that we started. I would call that a horse of a different color.

We have an army and we are not being forced to give up land to any other nation; in fact, right now our army is actively engaged in an unjust, inhumane war to install a US-approved government and to demilitarize its native population in another country. So really, we're doing this to OTHER people, not having it done to us.

Severe inflation? Maybe. Let's look at what SEVERE inflation could also mean, on a global scale, from our good friend wikipedia:

Official statistics reported in October put Zimbabwe's annual inflation in July 2008 at 231 million percent. The annual rate of price growth was 11.2 million in June. The Central Statistical Office stated that it therefore gained 219.8 million percentage points.

What's the US' rate of inflation like this year? Is it two hundred thirty one million percent?

According to this link: http://www.forecasts.org/inflation.htm the US inflation rate is currently at about 4.4%. Seems, I dunno, a bit lower.

And as long as we're talking about Zimbabwe, what's your unemployment rate like over there, guys?

The economy of Zimbabwe is collapsing under the weight of economic mismanagement, resulting in 85% unemployment

Oh my goodness. 85%? The US at the peak of the Great Depression was at about 33% unemployment rate. So what's it like right now?

Unemployment is at 6.1% (September 2008)[3]

So uh....yeah, I can see how we're poised for another Hitler to come in and swoop us up.

Inflation is coming, but it hasn't happened superbad like it was before.

Racism on an institutionalized scale, outside of like prison and stuff, does not exist in the open. That's a plus, but it doesn't mean we're the united states is Hitler-proofed. Racism and nationalism are incredibly similar concepts. One says you're better than another group because of melonin levels in your skin, one says you're better than another group because of the plot of land you were either born on or took an oath to be ruled by. If we're the united states government is willing to provoke unjustified war in Iraq (which I will admit, I did support then) then we'rethe united states government capable of unjustified war elsewhere wethe united states government gets a whim to go off and 'set things right'.

We haven't been at war with China like Germany was at war with the rest of Europe, however, what was their involvement in Vietnam? Their involvement in Korea? China supplied Vietcong troops, and threatened involvement if we stepped up our attack on N Vietnam, so the US never did. They stuck to playing defense in S Vietnam, and lost. The US has been fighting China for years, now the US is among their biggest investors. They own the US economy.

I reguarly would just edit to correct where I call the US gov't 'we', but I feel I may need to exemplify my errors if I wish to catch myself in the future before I slip.

I'm not predicting the united states will become a racist nation and attack the rest of the world, but we (people) may see an industro-military complex arise to keep up with China and such, as well as a silent in to the empire such as the EU has set up right here in North America.

I don't see why anyone would vote for Obama. He promises change, but the most he'll bring the white house is an administration of ideological socialists.

Oh, I'm not taking McCain's side either...

Well, if you have to vote for some one who do you vote for? In a situation like this who is the lesser of two evils?

At this point, with the two candidates we've got, I can't believe McCain's projected votes are still so high. I'm not saying that Obama is perfect, but holy shit, dude. Thank you for your $5000 medical insurance break. That'll really put a dent in the average family's medical bills, which typically run about $12,000/year, and that's even without catastrophic medical emergencies.

http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2008/10/14/if-you-vote-you-cant-complain/

I couldn't agree with you more, Jane.

There are other parties rather than Democrat and Republican. Even when hardly anyone votes for them, I still believe that every vote counts; whether it's a majority or third-party. Or you could take Giggan's word for it and not vote at all.

I voted, but not for an annointed one. But that blog I posted is a great argument against voting at all. If you vote for someone who wins, you 100% validate everything they do. If they are at all immoral, the blood is on your hands.

Sorry to be so blunt, but its very true. Govt is not the nice entity we think it is, it is institutionalized violence. Also, there's this:

Doesn't living in the United States and paying taxes also put the US's blood on your hands? You could move to another country. I realize this is a tough proposition moving countries, but I'm talking ideally.

If everywhere tyrants are perpetuating violence in the name of 'peace', then you have no where to move. Unless you go to the 'least-bad' place.

But people are not citizens, they are subjects (see my discussion with HardCandy)
http://chuckpalahniuk.net/forum/1000041/thread-discussion-between-those-...

While it is morally obligatory to not pay taxes, up and not doing it all at once can be stupid if you cannot spread the message further about how bad it is. It is best to wisely manage one's civil disobedience.

Gandhi also speaks about how a man is cowardly who flees his land to escape bullies in whatever form they appear in (whether they be typical theives or government goons). He bases his argument off of the duty to protect one's family and says the obligation also lies in converting the opponent to non-violence to prevent them from harming someone else, and potentially saving them from harm from others.

So if I voted for Nixon because of his policy of Vietnamization and softer policy on Communist leadership, I'm responsible for Watergate?

Ghandi also spoke about how black people were inferior.

Take it up with George Carlin!

I'd say yes...I defensively voted for John Sununu this election, but in retrospect, he's probably not gonna win, and I'd have to live with every error he makes if he does.

But yes, we don't realize the error we commit by voting. It is an authorization for all the evil politicians do. If you don't vote, you're exempt (morally).

This is something I definitely did not come to believe overnight...and I'm not quite there yet. But yeah, I think there is an objectionable moral action to voting.

Link please.

I bet if he did say that, it was before he became who he was...it was during a trip to S Africa as a young lawyer that he was shocked to be treated as lower class because of his skin color when he was high class in India. His story is very Siddhartha-esque.

I like that you're optimistic enough to even use the word probably.

Yeah, I wasn't happy about it...

But Shaheen needs to disapear (his opposition). She started the first broadbase tax in the state in '98.

I remember I told that to a dude who just moved here and he said, "Wow, what a bitch."

I lol'd.

I thought about that, but then I'd risk them catching me, and making me pay. I do see where you're coming from with the "running away" aspect.

Let's say that it was impossible to evade taxes, for the moment, and the only way of not paying was to move away. Let's say that the government was using the money we were giving it to do really awful things; let's say that every dollar you gave the government, it would kill an innocent person. I might be setting up a straw man argument, but I'm just curious if under this scenario if you'd consider leaving to be a viable alternative.

Yes, if that was the case, there's a strong argument to be made that people have a moral obligation to go to the place which does the least harm.

But I take theoretical questions with a grain of salt, because what we have is the here and now, and gov't is opposable.

But maybe it's not the government that's the problem. Maybe, like George Carlin says, the people are the problem. After all, they're the ones who keep voting in clowns.

I'm slowly growing to like Giggan. Maybe in the new year I will send him a package?

Just remember: nobody has any rights. People are begging to be led. And I'm going to take over your ass.

Why thank you, Derek. I would very much appreciate that. If you do decide to, I would definitely return the favor.

You don't have to vote, they just tell you that you do because their system needs legitimacy and your vote is your consent.

Oh and Polly, I enjoyed the CD! I'd put that in the CD thread, but I have no idea where it is/if it still exists. Good stuff, when you intially said something about Euro-Pop I admit, I got a little scared.