another non-fiction film

They don't need 'em, they have the media.

[QUOTE=Ozymandias]They don't need 'em, they have the media.[/QUOTE]

The only media "RIGHT WINGER's" have is FOX NEWS and the Radio.

If you want to see a good documentary by a "RIGHT WINGER" watch The Clinton Chronicle. It is an actual documentary, not an opinion piece like that 9/11 flick. I liked Roger and Me. But when it all comes down to it- If all American auto companies keep their factories within the US......the auto worker unions will continue to go on strike demanding a pay increase....thus making an American car too expensive for the average citizen.

I am not a Rupublican by any means....

Nor Democrat.....

I view both parties completely the same...........CORRUPT!

Don't rely on the television or newspaper for your source of information. Nor any documentary....claiming to "only show the truth."

Now is the time to begin a brand new form of truth seeking within the bloodlines of our borders.....it's time to say no....it's time to stand up and tell the talking heads to FUCK OFF.

It's time to tell Bush to close the borders with a watertight seal....it's time to tell him we're fed up with playing the fools.

It's time to tell Kerry.....NO, we don't need you... and yes....our country will soon unite as one to say.........

I CHOOSE FREEDOM.....

raise your fist and march around.

Thats fucking brillant. I take it you only want to close the southern border not the northern. Oh and what about Nafta, this border closing would be a violation to our corporate masters.

It's not like I support NAFTA I just don't think people get it. Putting a huge wall on all of the border is not a logical solution to the terrorism problem. Solving the terrorism problem is like trying to solve what Pi equals. You can't do it. You can get close, but as soon as you think you might have it just keeps going. As long as their are wars, famine, diasase, poverty, inequality, injustice, fanticism, fundamentalism, overpopulation and any other fucking problem you will never solve terrorism. Because these problems create terrorists.

And pay increases are logical over periods of time. Congress regularly increases THEIR wages for cost of living increses but the min. wage stays the same and doesn't increase with cost of living increases.

Obviously you only scraped the surface of Roger and Me it was about bigger ideas like how companies use to care about their hometown but NOW all that matters is the bottom line. Our country was founded on ideals that have been long forgotten for the quest of the almighty dollar. It was about how laying off people when a company is making record profits is unacceptable because those employees made the company great. And it helped inform people of a story that no one was telling. Kinda like Bowling for a Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11, these films are popular because no one else is telling them to the people, The Big One was not so popular because it wasn't really a compelling story. Watching Mikey go on a book tour wasn't as fun to see as him hunt down the man who destroyed his hometown.

And there is no excuse for what Roger Moore did to those people in Flynt. NO excuse. No excuse.

Oh and I bought 'Outfoxxed' and it wasn't that good. 'Unprecendented' was better than it.

[QUOTE=wolverine]

I am not a Rupublican by any means....

Nor Democrat.....

I view both parties completely the same...........CORRUPT!

Don't rely on the television or newspaper for your source of information. Nor any documentary....claiming to "only show the truth."

Now is the time to begin a brand new form of truth seeking within the bloodlines of our borders.....it's time to say no....it's time to stand up and tell the talking heads to FUCK OFF.

[/QUOTE]

That's right! Mutants Rights are important too! Charles Xavier for president! Vote the X ticket in November!

And those damn movies lied about you Wolvie! You're only 5'2?!?!?!

yeah, i was talking to my mom about fahrenheit 911 and she said 'those liberals like to distort everything. you need to see the other side before you make a decision' or something. and i said 'we see the other side every time we turn on the tv or the radio. it's everywhere.'
yeah...

[QUOTE=Popcultjunkie][URL=http://www.outfoxed.org/]Outfoxed[/URL]
which has links to other [URL=http://www.outfoxed.org/Recommendations.php]non-fiction films and books[/URL]

[URL=http://http.dvlabs.com/carolina/Outfxd2/Trailer_A(Med).mov]Trailer Link[/URL]

Do the "right-wingers" have films like this, besides Fox?[/QUOTE]

That looked damn good.
I love watching the news, mostly Headline News, I'm sure they're no better than Fox, but I'm too lazy to read a paper. My only other real source of news is Reuters.com

[QUOTE=DrGonzoHST]Thats fucking brillant. I take it you only want to close the southern border not the northern. Oh and what about Nafta, this border closing would be a violation to our corporate masters.

It's not like I support NAFTA I just don't think people get it. Putting a huge wall on all of the border is not a logical solution to the terrorism problem. Solving the terrorism problem is like trying to solve what Pi equals. You can't do it. You can get close, but as soon as you think you might have it just keeps going. As long as their are wars, famine, diasase, poverty, inequality, injustice, fanticism, fundamentalism, overpopulation and any other fucking problem you will never solve terrorism. Because these problems create terrorists.

And pay increases are logical over periods of time. Congress regularly increases THEIR wages for cost of living increses but the min. wage stays the same and doesn't increase with cost of living increases.

Obviously you only scraped the surface of Roger and Me it was about bigger ideas like how companies use to care about their hometown but NOW all that matters is the bottom line. Our country was founded on ideals that have been long forgotten for the quest of the almighty dollar. It was about how laying off people when a company is making record profits is unacceptable because those employees made the company great. And it helped inform people of a story that no one was telling. Kinda like Bowling for a Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11, these films are popular because no one else is telling them to the people, The Big One was not so popular because it wasn't really a compelling story. Watching Mikey go on a book tour wasn't as fun to see as him hunt down the man who destroyed his hometown.

And there is no excuse for what Roger Moore did to those people in Flynt. NO excuse. No excuse.

Oh and I bought 'Outfoxxed' and it wasn't that good. 'Unprecendented' was better than it.[/QUOTE]

You brainwashed fiends are all the same.

Why would I want to strictly shut off the southern border?

Do you agree with everything Mike Moore says?

Oh yeah, I didn't say I agreed with what Roger Moore did. I mean......Jesus H......... look at the town of Flynt!

Talk about scratching surfaces......look at AFB towns. Every time a base shuts down many families lose their businesses. We can thank Clinton for that.

And about immigration.....have you seen an improvement with Bush in office? Canada is how the 9/11 hijackers got into this country, did Moore say that in his movie?

So in short.......

Fine...Vote for Kerry...Vote for Bush......

I mean, are you ever going to be happy with the way things are?

If no, what kind of America would you like to live in?

Ball's in your court..........

See you at the polls.......

(Hey Hunter S. Thompson, sorry to disrespect. I am just so fucking sick of everything! The way this country is moving. The fact that I work 12 hours a day. That fact that so much money is taken out of my paycheck. I mean jeez. I come home to see what's on the news and all I get is this ABCFOXNEWSPETERJENNINGSBULLSHIT! So anyways, don't take me too seriously or get all pissed with me enough to shoot a hole through me with your 12 gauge while nursing a bottle of old crow. So in short....you have great potential as a truth seeker...I just hope you can harness this rage to do good things to stop all these problems our country is afflicted with...Goodtimes Raoul Duke......Stay off the Amyl Nitrate poppers.....)

[QUOTE=wolverine]You brainwashed fiends are all the same.

Why would I want to strictly shut off the southern border?

Do you agree with everything Mike Moore says?

Oh yeah, I didn't say I agreed with what Roger Moore did. I mean......Jesus H......... look at the town of Flynt!

Talk about scratching surfaces......look at AFB towns. Every time a base shuts down many families lose their businesses. We can thank Clinton for that.

And about immigration.....have you seen an improvement with Bush in office? Canada is how the 9/11 hijackers got into this country, did Moore say that in his movie?

So in short.......

Fine...Vote for Kerry...Vote for Bush......

I mean, are you ever going to be happy with the way things are?

If no, what kind of America would you like to live in?

Ball's in your court..........

See you at the polls.......

(Hey Hunter S. Thompson, sorry to disrespect. I am just so fucking sick of everything! The way this country is moving. The fact that I work 12 hours a day. That fact that so much money is taken out of my paycheck. I mean jeez. I come home to see what's on the news and all I get is this ABCFOXNEWSPETERJENNINGSBULLSHIT! So anyways, don't take me too seriously or get all pissed with me enough to shoot a hole through me with your 12 gauge while nursing a bottle of old crow. So in short....you have great potential as a truth seeker...I just hope you can harness this rage to do good things to stop all these problems our country is afflicted with...Goodtimes Raoul Duke......Stay off the Amyl Nitrate poppers.....)[/QUOTE]

Southern states are usually the only people bitching about the border security being lax.

Also I never said I agreed with Mike on everything, I just agree with his taking actions with his fame and showing the American public things they haven't seen. And by belittling their actions to move plants to mexico you did defend him.

And I live in a huge military town of San Diego, We gots marine bases all over and if they shut down a lot of people would lose work. But you know what, what should we be doing in peace time? George HW Bush began to cut military spending and Clinton just kept the cuts coming. The fact is Reagan spent so much god damn money there was no where to go but down. The same will be for John kerry or any other president in the next 10 years. Bush43 has spent just like Reagan, shit he even proposed to reinstate the failed SDI program before 9-11.

Do you know how much it would cost to completely secure the border? I'm not sure either but I bet it equals Healthcare for everyone. I would choose healthcare for everyone over securing the border, because, like I said before it doesn't make us that much safer. Remeber Timothy McVeigh he lived in this fucking country, who is to say the next terrorist attacks doesn't come from home grown radicals NOT Islamic Fundamentalists.

I will be happy when this country stops being apathetic. When voter turnout for every election is 70%. When this countries politicians stop playing stupid games like introducing stupid fucking bills into congress (Like Banning Flag Burning) just so they can play politics in their local elections. I will be happy when this country starts closing corporate tax loopholes and makes the tax code understandable for everyone not just rich people who get to pay their CPAs so they can get out of paying their fair shares. I will be happy when this country adopts a single payer healthcare system like Canada. I will be happy when this country adopts a energy policy that takes action to stop ruining the environment with fossil fuels and moves immediatley to renewable energy sources and not have enrgy policy written by the energy companies who only have their interests in mind. I will be happy when women get paid equally with men and also have the same possiblity of advancement in the workplace. I will be happy when this country stops starting wars with countries under false assumptions. I will be happy when this country stops engaging in proping up dictator in third world countries just so they can be USA friendly states. Basically I aint going to be happy with this country untill some huge changes are made with the entire political system.

You could also put Electoral College reform and paper trail for all touch screen voting enabling an independent recount on this list. Public Financing only for all elections IE since the public owns the airwaves no more campaign commercials and more debates and more airtime for actual political coverage not horcerace coverage. (Kerrys up in the polls, Bush is down back to you Jon)

Well, goodtimes Duke.....

Id' say a Liberitarian society would be my favorite way of life within this country.

"I will be happy when this country adopts a single payer healthcare system like Canada."

That line caused me to laugh ferociously....I woke up the neighbors dogs.....It can take as long as a year to get heart surgery in Canada. Socialism at work....where the garbagemen make nearly as much as the brain surgeons.

Everybody has their own visions of America.

I can't see why we're still putting these jackasses and elephants in office.....

[QUOTE=wolverine]Socialism at work....[/QUOTE]
Kinda like the military, and the police, and the fire department, and.......

Libertarians remind me most of Communists with their naive assumption of a personal responsibility in people that just doesn't exist. How great everything sounds [I]in theory[/I]...

What the fuck is wrong with socialized Healthcare?

If your rich and want to hire a specialist to perform your heart surgery without 'a year wait' go ahead. No one would stop you. I have a problem with treating Healthcare as business and not as responsiblity. When HMOS put profit margins ahead of the well being of their CUSTOMERS. See they shouldn't be called customers they should be called PEOPLE.

Fuck your stupid fucking scare tactics. Oh socialism = bad, libertarian = good. I got mad problems with libertarians because they basically want an Anarchastic society where FREEDOM would rule out everything and anyone could do whatever the fuck they want. If you think that is good for society you must be on crack. Look at what business is doing to US and the ENVIRONMENT under a somewhat anarchy. They fucking destroyed everyone's planet and it would only get worse under a libertarian society. That's not even taking account for the lack of rule of law. Some laws are fucking stupid but it doesn't mean you throw out all LAWS. Laws are good for people who are stupid and need direction. Some people know whats right and wrong without laws and thats great but some people are morons who would like to fuck their 12 year old daughter. Also

silly goose.....

You don't get rid of all laws...

Unlike an Anarchastic society, you dont have permission to:"fuck their 12 year old daughter." as you so bluntly put it.

The government protects you from your rights being violated.

A Liberitarian society would be great for you because marijuana would be legal. It would definitely do you some good......calm down......

Scare tactics? Where?

Here's some scare tactics.

"This country, with it's institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."
-ABRAHAM LINCOLN

GO VOTE FOR KERRY YOU HACK....

Go Gonzo, it's ya birthday! *does Cabbage Patch*

Where did I ever imply I was voting for Kerry?

I'll ask it again... What the fuck is wrong with socialized healthcare? I don't expect you to answer thoughtfully because anyone with a half a brain would be for this shit. Only crazy ass libertarians who think taxes are the worst fucking thing in the world are against socialized healthcare. They think thaqt the people who make only $16,000 a year are the happiest people on the planet because they don't pay any income tax.

It's too late and I can't believe I even bother after working 16 hours straight with only 2 hours sleep.

Oh and pot gives me panic attacks. Especially the chronic.

[QUOTE=wolverine]silly goose.....

You don't get rid of all laws...

Unlike an Anarchastic society, you dont have permission to:"fuck their 12 year old daughter." as you so bluntly put it.

The government protects you from your rights being violated.

A Liberitarian society would be great for you because marijuana would be legal. It would definitely do you some good......calm down......

Scare tactics? Where?

Here's some scare tactics.

"This country, with it's institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."
-ABRAHAM LINCOLN

GO VOTE FOR KERRY YOU HACK....[/QUOTE]
i was doing some brushing up on libertarianism, and i came across this quote which is only too true:
"The communist of 1910 couldn't point to a single real-world instance of his utopia; neither can the present-day libertarian. Yet they're unshakeable in their conviction that it can and must happen."
it's poigniant because it illustrates the first fatal flaw of libertarianism, the people who believe in it tend to come across as fanatacals (you can thank the social norm not to talk politics in public in america for this). The quote compares them to communists who were much in the same way. they stood up for their ideals, despite never having seen their ideals in practice. this shouldn't deter anyone for sticking up for it, it shoudl deter someone for vehemently sticking up for it. i wouldn't compare libertarians with communists, i'd compare them to the religious zealots who "know" that they're right, despite never having seeing a functional example to back up their hypotheses.

the other bad trouble with libertarianism is all the assumptions it makes for you. if you're oppressed, well then you deserve to be or you've done something which makes you so. if you're a big business, you have every right to put anyone out of business you can, using whatever tactics necessary. before big business regulation there was something which somewhat resembled libertarianism in america, at least from a legal standpoint. there was no one to approve conditions of food prep, there were robber barons, monopolies, attacks on anyone who tried to organize any workers, and even slavery.

but of course you libertarians would say "oh not in our perfect world", but there is no perfect world! people have bad natures to them. people need some amount of guideance and some forms of rules in place. a person as an individaul isn't something to worry about, they'll tend to regulate themself, but people en mass will start to form choas. that's why big events have planners and organizers, that's why the exists are clearly makered in every last building. yes, we need some form of government, without it it's anarchy, we need more than the bare-bones form of government that libertarians talk about becuase many people do need governmental help to survive, some people do need laws in place that let them know if they go against the popular opinion of law, they will be punished. libertarianism only serves the purpose of those who want to break the law, be it for pot ar our kindly x-man stated above, or for monetary gains, or for their own bloodthirst, and it serves the rich, only to make them richer and more powerful. it destroys any notion that the working class, the majority of people in america, is good. it will break down the working class to mere serfdom.

Yeah Trpyd that's what I said but no thoughtful response was given. He just told me to calm down. I guess calling someone out on their ideals is too much for some people to take.

[QUOTE=DrGonzoHST]Yeah Trpyd that's what I said but no thoughtful response was given. He just told me to calm down. I guess calling someone out on their ideals is too much for some people to take.[/QUOTE]

Everyone gang up on me at once....

I told you to calm down because you keep typing words like FUCK to back up your reasoning. When I say I don't want socialized healthcare....you say I must be smoking crack....

I don't agree with communism. Does that mean this to you?:DIE COMMIE SCUM! GO BURN IN HELL POISON RUNS DEEP WITHIN YOUR VIENS or.....does it mean this: We have seen full out Communism in action and there has been evidence that it has never been a good thing. Stalin killed millions of his own people.

In recent history I have not seen a true Liberitarian society in action at all. So how do we know it's crap?

I am not much for an argument. I like the idea of unlimited personal freedom w/out some guy trying to rape you or kill you for fun. Anarchy would mean NO LAW. That wouldn't last long anyway. An outside source would most likely take over and start a government.

What carrer field are you in? I do construction so I do understand what it is like to not know what time you go home.

One more thing...Whats your favorite piece of literature by RAOUL DUKE?

iamtootiredtocontinuetypingsolongfornow.

[QUOTE=wolverine]Everyone gang up on me at once....

I told you to calm down because you keep typing words like FUCK to back up your reasoning. When I say I don't want socialized healthcare....you say I must be smoking crack....

I don't agree with communism. Does that mean this to you?:DIE COMMIE SCUM! GO BURN IN HELL POISON RUNS DEEP WITHIN YOUR VIENS or.....does it mean this: We have seen full out Communism in action and there has been evidence that it has never been a good thing. Stalin killed millions of his own people.

In recent history I have not seen a true Liberitarian society in action at all. So how do we know it's crap?

I am not much for an argument. I like the idea of unlimited personal freedom w/out some guy trying to rape you or kill you for fun. Anarchy would mean NO LAW. That wouldn't last long anyway. An outside source would most likely take over and start a government.

What carrer field are you in? I do construction so I do understand what it is like to not know what time you go home.

One more thing...Whats your favorite piece of literature by RAOUL DUKE?

iamtootiredtocontinuetypingsolongfornow.[/QUOTE]
hey man, you opened the doors to this discussion. you're best defense is "since we've never seen it, how can we know that it's bad?" you are saying you want to be able to do whatever you want, but you don't want to people to be able to do whatever they want to you. doc was being poigniant about the fact that you're not even addressing the problems we're presenting with libertarianism. you need to explain your views, which means discussion, which is what this forum section is for.

i'm not attacking you, i'm explaining my views on libertarianism, so feel free to respond to my last post directly. otherwise i'm sure we'll all just brush off your libertarianism as being an uneducated choice where you just don't want to sound like the same old same old "oh yea man, anarchy!! death to the man, i'm my own god" type rant.

on a side note, i was talking with my boss earlier this week, and i tend to view her politically as the exact opposite of me. i'm talking she's a bush-lover, i think she's the first person i've talked to that is planning on voting for him. so imagine my surprise when she said she's a libertarian. jaw hit the floor, and brain churning a mile a minute wondering how any libertarian could support bush, who's signing so many laws into effect that are promoting more government involvement. it could just be one of her "oooh, pretty electric cord" thoughts... (yes, she bought an expensive electrical cord because it was blue)

I did open the doors for discussion: not:"Thats fucking brillant. I take it you only want to close the southern border not the northern."

TRYPDWYRE, you actually seem like a political junkie(I mean that in a good way).

This is the definitive explanation:

ANARCHY IS-No government. Do whatever you want. Burn, Kill, Rape, it doesn't matter because there is nothing stopping you.

A LIBERITARIAN SOCIETY- Is a minimal government. Police still exist. You can't kill someone without being brought to trail. You can't "fuck their 12 year old daughter." as Gonzo put it. The rights we have as human beings in America today will still exist.

That is the major difference between the two. Nobody has seemed to understand that yet.

[QUOTE=wolverine]I did open the doors for discussion: not:"Thats fucking brillant. I take it you only want to close the southern border not the northern."

TRYPDWYRE, you actually seem like a political junkie(I mean that in a good way).

This is the definitive explanation:

ANARCHY IS-No government. Do whatever you want. Burn, Kill, Rape, it doesn't matter because there is nothing stopping you.

A LIBERITARIAN SOCIETY- Is a minimal government. Police still exist. You can't kill someone without being brought to trail. You can't "fuck their 12 year old daughter." as Gonzo put it. The rights we have as human beings in America today will still exist.

That is the major difference between the two. Nobody has seemed to understand that yet.[/QUOTE]
yes, we all do understand this. really, we do, i know i do, and doc has talked with me about it from time to time. we know there is a difference, and what that difference is. but the problems with libertarianism i've pointed out to you 2 posts before are continuing to go unaddressed. do YOU know anything about libertarianism other than "it's not anarchy"? do you know how to address the welfare problem with libertarianism? it is a big hitting point against libertarianism! also, how would you address the fact that it only empowers more corporate greed and monopolistic tendancies? both myself and doc (speaking generally for doc here as i am only going on what i've heard him say on this forum) are against heavy governmental involvement, yet realize that libertarianism seeks to withhold many processes our current government is implementing to establish some sort of equality among the masses, and don't agree with that major aspect of libertarianism. what do YOU know of libertarianism other than "it's for minimal governmental involvement"?

OK,

unaddressed question number one- do YOU know anything about libertarianism other than "it's not anarchy"?

Yes I do, I would love to see this country as a Liberitarian society. That is what our forefathers had in mind for this country. It would be an economics class report to type every detail to this society. But the main theme is:YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU. This is a bit off the cuff but: have you seen the film REPO MAN? As Otto's friend is shot while trying to rob a liquor store he say's: "I blame society for who I am!"
Otto then replies: "That's bullshit, you're a white suburban punk, just like me." And when you think about it you can apply that to many things in life....

do you know how to address the welfare problem with libertarianism?- There would be no welfare. Simply private charitiy. If YOU decide to give to the poor it is up to you. So allow me to toss a question your way....Has the welfare system that began in 1965 been successful? Keep in mind 5 trillion dollars have been spent since then BY THE GOVERMENT to help the poor.

also, how would you address the fact that it only empowers more corporate greed and monopolistic tendancies?-Well, I look at it this way. Monopolies are illegal to begin with. AT&T took some heat from that, as well as microsoft. But without corporations we would have no cars that transport you to work, phones to communcate with one another, and things we have in daily life that are so important. If we didn't have corporations all of these things would be so expensive that the average person couldn't afford it.

what do YOU know of libertarianism other than "it's for minimal governmental involvement"?- Keep firing the questions and I will answer to the best of my knowledge. I have faith in this system.

Here's some questions to fire back.

What political party's ideals do you most closely agree with?

What would make socialized healthcare so great?

I am not trying to attack anyone. I am simply confused why you would want to implement socialized healthcare if you folks want less gov?

I may not agree with you, but I respect anyone who is willing to stand up for what they believe in. Good luck with you guys, and don't forget to register to vote.

-Wolvy

Another movie for ya folks;
[url=http://www.theonionavclub.com/yesmen/]The Yes Men trailer[/url]
official Yes Men website; [url]http://www.theyesmen.org/[/url]

***sidenote; creator of thread does not mind your dicussion..no need for mod break-up ;)***

[QUOTE=wolverine]OK,

unaddressed question number one- do YOU know anything about libertarianism other than "it's not anarchy"?

Yes I do, I would love to see this country as a Liberitarian society. That is what our forefathers had in mind for this country. It would be an economics class report to type every detail to this society. But the main theme is:YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU. This is a bit off the cuff but: have you seen the film REPO MAN? As Otto's friend is shot while trying to rob a liquor store he say's: "I blame society for who I am!"
Otto then replies: "That's bullshit, you're a white suburban punk, just like me." And when you think about it you can apply that to many things in life....
ok, i should have phrased the question as "WHAT do you know about libertarianism other than 'its not anarchy'" and no, i've not seen "REPO MAN"

so you would wipe out, not modify, the only governmental project that ensures that everyone in america can live, despite what their income might lack? private charity would be fantastic, but far too small. some people are on welfare for a reason, not just because they're lazy, or just used to it, but because it's the only way they can etch out enough to keep themselves (and possibly their families) alive. private charity is already in place, yet it accounts for only a small percentage of what would be needed to fund those who can't completely fund themselves.
so you're ideal here is "they do something" so they should be regulated? have you read what the robber barons used to do? the monopolies of railroad, of telephone or even computers? they drove up their prices because they could, this would ensure even further that middle class (and below) america would end up as mere serfs, their rights would go out the window as they would have no possible way to represent themselves properly in court. america would go from what it is now back to what it was before slavery was abolished, only this slavery would only discriminate based on class level, not race. in a libertarian society monopolies would be legal, not illegal, there would be nothing afforable among many of the "necessities" that you've mentioned.
faith based on what? you've no record anywhere of libertarianism ever being attempted, let alone succeding. what i know of libertarianism expands beyond "you are responssible for you". libertarianism seeks to strip down government to the bare bones, and in some instances that's not a bad idea, but you'd have to deal with, homelessness, corporate greed, infringements upon middle and lower class america, not to mention the death of affirmative action (hello segregation), rising cost of healthcare coupled with decreasing cost of wages(there'd be no minimum wage, which is another interesting topic if you want to delve into it), and death of any sort of public education all in favor of what? so that you can have more "freedom". i put freedom in quotations there because eliminating most of these things will actually end up restricting a vast majority of opportunities of freedom to the very people you are "giving freedom" to.
this is an easy one, and you're going to hate this answer- MY OWN -
i don't feel it necessary to subscribe or be labeled to a structured thought pattern in politics the same way i don't feel it's necessary to subscribe or label myself to a structured form of religion. i believe what i believe because i've research it, each thing individually, and so far, i've yet to find any political party that encompases my beliefs. label me how you will, it's human nature to define people in different contexts, but always understand, there is something about each party that i cannot agree with.
i understand that there are problems with socialized healthcare, yet at the same time these problems far outweigh the problems with our version of half healthcare/half free market system. the major benefit of socialized healthcare is extremely obvious - EVERYONE WOULD BE ABLE TO RECIEVE THE BEST CARE THEY CHOOSE TO SEEK OUT - and i guess the next answer would be somewhat obvious - EMPHASIS ON CARE WOULD MOVE FROM "BEST COST" TO "BEST PRACTICE" - so i guess i'll ask you, what do you think is so bad about socialized healthcare?
you have to pick and choose your battles, in this instance providing better and more affordable care for the people of america far outweighs some of the evils of government. i want less government in certain areas, less legislation in certain areas, but that is not to say i'm against legislation and government in general or as a whole.

why are you convinced that government in general (not as a whole) is a bad thing?

libertarians prefer not to delve into matters of economics or living standards of the population, and based on who you talk (or argue as our society leans toward) with, this can be a good thing or a bad thing. they focous on personal liberties, which are great, but when you cut back on certain governmental programs and practices, you will end up lowering the standards of life for the population, in effect limiting the amout of freedom an individual or social class can achieve.

[QUOTE=wolverine]OK,

unaddressed question number one- do YOU know anything about libertarianism other than "it's not anarchy"?

Yes I do, I would love to see this country as a Liberitarian society. That is what our forefathers had in mind for this country. It would be an economics class report to type every detail to this society. But the main theme is:YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU. This is a bit off the cuff but: have you seen the film REPO MAN? As Otto's friend is shot while trying to rob a liquor store he say's: "I blame society for who I am!"
Otto then replies: "That's bullshit, you're a white suburban punk, just like me." And when you think about it you can apply that to many things in life....
[/QUOTE]

Personal Responsiblity is the main theme of Liberitarianism. Well thats just unaccceptable, everyone acting in the best interests of themselves will never create a good society. NEVER. Don't you think Wal-Mart acts in their best interests? Or Halliburton? Or Any company that lays off workers to exploit third world countries? This happens now. What do you think it would be like in a Liberitarian society? These companies are not worried about the welfare of the society they are beholden to their majority of their shareholders (usually themselves) or if/and (not public owned) worried only about the bottom line. Well The bottom line of my company would decrease a lot if I just started slave trade again. And those are some of the ideals this country was founded on. I'm not suggesting that you are a rascist who wants to start a new slave trade, i'm just pointing out that these ideals ceaed to exist when the people realized that government regulation was needed for society's well being. If you have any concept of history you would realize this? Like trpyd said just read about the robber barons. The fact is personal responsiblity will never make this country great. People need to be responsible to society as a whole. I hate to invoke Hillary but she said it best when she said "It takes a village". It really does.

[QUOTE=wolverine]
do you know how to address the welfare problem with libertarianism?- There would be no welfare. Simply private charitiy. If YOU decide to give to the poor it is up to you. So allow me to toss a question your way....Has the welfare system that began in 1965 been successful? Keep in mind 5 trillion dollars have been spent since then BY THE GOVERMENT to help the poor.
[/QUOTE]

Do you know how much money we have wasted on military and defense? Is public education considered welfare? What about tax cuts for huge corporations? Do you consider that welfare? As you can tell Some the problems here are the negative connotations that come with describing somethin as 'welfare'. In 1992 a New York Times / CBS News poll described how peoples opinion changed dramatically when different words were used. Example 44% of people polled thought spending was too much but 64% wanted increase in spending for 'assistance to the poor' programs with only 13% with negative reactions to an increase in those porgrams spending.

And I would say that a lot of the 'welfare' programs have been a success. LBJ's Great Society programs have had a huge effect on America and despite attacks by conservative shat he was 'social enginerring' the poverty rate declined measureably. Head Start helped poverty ridden youth gain better educational performance. HUD was established as was Medicaid and Medicare that also helped these poverty rates decline. Do you think this country would be better off if these programs were not started? What would you do with this money? Not all 'welfare' programs are a success but not all military programs are a success. We can all pick out failures in gov spending but personally I would rather spend money on (Worst case scenario) Crack mothers who keep pumping out babies than Bombs to kill poor people or useless nuclear weapons that will prolly get in the hands of terrorists to kill me. But that's just me.

[QUOTE=wolverine]
also, how would you address the fact that it only empowers more corporate greed and monopolistic tendancies?-Well, I look at it this way. Monopolies are illegal to begin with. AT&T took some heat from that, as well as microsoft. But without corporations we would have no cars that transport you to work, phones to communcate with one another, and things we have in daily life that are so important. If we didn't have corporations all of these things would be so expensive that the average person couldn't afford it.
[/QUOTE]

Ah the prayer of the corporate church. Yes corporations provide a service but they don't have to push out / buy out competition. They lack of gov regulation would further push out competitors and create larger companies that would be able to charge what ever the hell they wanted for necessary comodities like gas, electricity, healthcare, and even retail products like clothes and food. If one company buys out all the providers of these services what will stop them from charging the customers outrageous amounts. I can attest to this personally because I live in Cali and we got ripped the fuck off after deregulation of our electricity. The fact is only huge corporations can provide some of these services and without a government effort to increase competition who would? The consumers have no opportunity to revolt against something as necessary as healthcare, electricity, or gas companies. We need these things to survive as a modern society.

[QUOTE=wolverine]
what do YOU know of libertarianism other than "it's for minimal governmental involvement"?- Keep firing the questions and I will answer to the best of my knowledge. I have faith in this system.
[/QUOTE]

I think you are ignoring a major platform of liberitarianism as the anti-tax. This is the main reason most people become liberitarians. They hate taxes. I like taxes that go to help and better our society. I don't like gov waste but I don't think we should stop striving to better our society because of some gov spending waste.

Do you believe in a income tax? Do you believe in a sales tax? Do you believe in any taxes? How do you plan on paying for the bare bones gov most libertarian's propose? Do you believe in drug laws? Do you believe in property laws? What laws are logical under a liberitarian soceity?

[QUOTE=wolverine]
Here's some questions to fire back.

What political party's ideals do you most closely agree with?

What would make socialized healthcare so great?

I am not trying to attack anyone. I am simply confused why you would want to implement socialized healthcare if you folks want less gov?
-Wolvy[/QUOTE]

I believe in socialized healthcare because I believe that healthcare should not be treated as a business but a service. HMOS and healthcare insurance providers have begun to put limits on what are acceptable operations and what are deemed unnecessary. It would be easier to implement a single payer healthcare system in which everyone was covered. It would also be nice to tax dollars doing some good. I believ in less gov in regards to FCC regulations about decency but do support more regulation with regards to monpolies like Clear Channel. It's not a black and white issue. Nothing is ever that simple. This country is facing problems much more complicated than any less gov vs big gov argument would ever hint at. Liberitarians use Big gov to scare people but sometimes big gov is needed to help protect society. Like a national defense, it is needed to protect us but at some point enogh is enough and I understand that about the Liberitarian platform.
Big government overreaches sometimes but you don't decrease it where it is needed to maintain a workable society you just change it accordingly.

And belong to the Green Party.

Here is an overview of our platform.

1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a “living wage” which reflects the real value of a person’s work.

Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers’ rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our “quality of life.” We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.

We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or “unmaking” all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions.

You folks have a passion,

It took me a while to read all that, so I will my best to answer as much as I can.
(Very tired, cut me some slack!)

"so you would wipe out, not modify, the only governmental project that ensures that everyone in america can live, despite what their income might lack? private charity would be fantastic, but far too small. some people are on welfare for a reason, not just because they're lazy, or just used to it, but because it's the only way they can etch out enough to keep themselves (and possibly their families) alive. private charity is already in place, yet it accounts for only a small percentage of what would be needed to fund those who can't completely fund themselves."
---The charities would be set up completely different.
The level of patriotism would be immense within the society(and I am not talking about the guys who drive the big trucks with the American Flags all over it). The government would be the active force in allowing you to contribute to those who are less fortunate. Plus it would give all the evil corporations a chance to step up to the plate to benifit these people. Imagine the ideal President on television asking you to help the poor. So in reality:this would be:THE STRONGER AMERICA that Kerry continues to talk about. Because everyone would be helping each other-because they WANT to.

"so you're ideal here is "they do something" so they should be regulated? have you read what the robber barons used to do? the monopolies of railroad, of telephone or even computers? they drove up their prices because they could, this would ensure even further that middle class (and below) america would end up as mere serfs, their rights would go out the window as they would have no possible way to represent themselves properly in court. america would go from what it is now back to what it was before slavery was abolished, only this slavery would only discriminate based on class level, not race. in a libertarian society monopolies would be legal, not illegal, there would be nothing afforable among many of the "necessities" that you've mentioned."

HA! Remember that this society is run PRIMARILY by the people. If we don't like what is going on, or say they begin growing to powerful;if necessary we can take up our weapons and say we won't stand for this. Now, the corporations knowing this would realize that people are the ones who decide weather it's right or wrong. So...it would be a true democracy. (waiting for you to tear this bit to shreds)

"faith based on what? you've no record anywhere of libertarianism ever being attempted, let alone succeding. what i know of libertarianism expands beyond "you are responssible for you". libertarianism seeks to strip down government to the bare bones, and in some instances that's not a bad idea, but you'd have to deal with, homelessness, corporate greed, infringements upon middle and lower class america, not to mention the death of affirmative action (hello segregation), rising cost of healthcare coupled with decreasing cost of wages(there'd be no minimum wage, which is another interesting topic if you want to delve into it), and death of any sort of public education all in favor of what? so that you can have more "freedom". i put freedom in quotations there because eliminating most of these things will actually end up restricting a vast majority of opportunities of freedom to the very people you are "giving freedom" to."

Again, I want to see it happen. I want to see an attempt. Affirmative action in my opinion is racist within itself. The policy in America is always EQUALITY. Affirmative action is not equality! It doesn't give everybody a fair chance. Especially Asian Americans who have always been overlooked in this case. What about racial privacy? Does everyone have to know I am African American? Does everyone have to know I am Jewish?
I look outside my window and I can see the neighborhood children playing. They seem to be the ones who have it right. Their riding bikes, playing hide and go seek. They understand that:WE ARE KIDS! WE ARE ALL JUST PEOPLE! They seem to be smarter than most adults when it comes to this.
(Sorry about the tangent, I am passionate about equality and unity in life.)

Here's why I view socialized healthcare as a bad thing.

To begin socialized healthcare you must have a love for your people. A strong passion for your countryfolk. But, once this has been implemented you will soon realize that one entity(being the gov.) controls 20% of our nations workforce. With this massive program implemented, it would create more homelessness due to the fact that EVERYONE is paying for it weather you want to or not. I understand what you were saying about monopolies, but can you imagine a Government monopoly with that much control over us? Not to mention malpractice! Can you imagine trying to sue the government for that? That is one massive force you would never be able to mess with. Look at the freedom of speech issues today! Most of these problems come from the FCC but we can't say anything due to their control over what we can and cannot listen to or view. Another reason to go out and vote(The Senior citizens have always had the younger generation beat!)

Im gonna type some more tomorrow.....I gotta get up at 4. Thanks again for this discussion.

[QUOTE=wolverine]---The charities would be set up completely different.
The level of patriotism would be immense within the society(and I am not talking about the guys who drive the big trucks with the American Flags all over it). The government would be the active force in allowing you to contribute to those who are less fortunate. Plus it would give all the evil corporations a chance to step up to the plate to benifit these people. Imagine the ideal President on television asking you to help the poor. So in reality:this would be:THE STRONGER AMERICA that Kerry continues to talk about. Because everyone would be helping each other-because they WANT to.[/quote]
yea, i believe i said something already on how libertarians seem to think that given their way, the american society would become a perfect society. but really what makes you so sure that patriotism would increase, that america would be stronger? i'm taking a fairly opposite view of this. given a complete cut off of governmental regulation and goverment enabled tax cuts for chartiable contributions, i see things taking a much much different course than you see.

[QUOTE=wolverine]HA! Remember that this society is run PRIMARILY by the people. If we don't like what is going on, or say they begin growing to powerful;if necessary we can take up our weapons and say we won't stand for this. Now, the corporations knowing this would realize that people are the ones who decide weather it's right or wrong. So...it would be a true democracy. (waiting for you to tear this bit to shreds)[/quote]
ok, here i go. how exactly would the people stand up for this? taking up arms against a corporation won't amount to anything, and "the people" would have no means to do anything about the corporations. even in our regulated society corporations still hold enough sway over the people and the governement. taking away governmental regulation would only increase the range of control they can have.

[QUOTE=wolverine]Again, I want to see it happen. I want to see an attempt. Affirmative action in my opinion is racist within itself. The policy in America is always EQUALITY. Affirmative action is not equality! It doesn't give everybody a fair chance. Especially Asian Americans who have always been overlooked in this case. What about racial privacy? Does everyone have to know I am African American? Does everyone have to know I am Jewish?[/quote]
the policy of america's government would cease to be "equality" if libertarianism actually took place. it would be "do for yourself" it would be "step on as many toes as you need to". in an ideal society, yes, i'd agree with you. there is no such thing as an ideal society in reality. as an individual people are great, as groups people are chaotic, people are rude, people are greedy. giving out more "personal freedoms" would only increase this idea.

[QUOTE=wolverine]I look outside my window and I can see the neighborhood children playing. They seem to be the ones who have it right. Their riding bikes, playing hide and go seek. They understand that:WE ARE KIDS! WE ARE ALL JUST PEOPLE! They seem to be smarter than most adults when it comes to this.
(Sorry about the tangent, I am passionate about equality and unity in life.)[/quote]
like you i admire youth, and it's simple understanding of individuals. if libertarianism succeeded, you would be decreasing the opportunities available to those very children. likely there would be no regulation of education, their parents would become the serfs of their generation, and their children would grow up knowing only serfdom, making it that much easier to keep them "in line".

[QUOTE=wolverine]Here's why I view socialized healthcare as a bad thing.

To begin socialized healthcare you must have a love for your people. A strong passion for your countryfolk. But, once this has been implemented you will soon realize that one entity(being the gov.) controls 20% of our nations workforce. With this massive program implemented, it would create more homelessness due to the fact that EVERYONE is paying for it weather you want to or not. I understand what you were saying about monopolies, but can you imagine a Government monopoly with that much control over us? Not to mention malpractice! Can you imagine trying to sue the government for that? That is one massive force you would never be able to mess with. Look at the freedom of speech issues today! Most of these problems come from the FCC but we can't say anything due to their control over what we can and cannot listen to or view. Another reason to go out and vote(The Senior citizens have always had the younger generation beat!)[/quote]
true, everyone would be paying for it. look at canada, their tax rate isn't much higher than our own. in all actuality, they end up expending less because their costs of care are supremely lowered.

[QUOTE=wolverine]Im gonna type some more tomorrow.....I gotta get up at 4. Thanks again for this discussion.[/QUOTE]
anytime. on a side note, i was reading an interview - [url]http://www.reason.com/0408/fe.bd.john.shtmlwith[/url] - John Perry Barlow (creator of EFF). he used to be a staunch supporter of libertarianism, and in this interview he said he can no longer agree with libertarianism.