Another Anniversary of 9/11

I meant to go to the twin towers site yesterday, but I didn't. I still need to go. I can see their lights at night when I'm in Washington Square Park. They're really pretty.

[QUOTE=jane s.]In a nutshell, what the hell happened in Russia anyway? A school got bombed? How long ago was it? How many people were hurt?[/QUOTE]

you probably alreeady got this answered, but just in case, in a nutshell seperatists from the chechnya province in russia took over a school and killed at least 100 people including children. many were also injured.

[QUOTE=snuffy]you probably alreeady got this answered, but just in case, in a nutshell seperatists from the chechnya province in russia took over a school and killed at least 100 people including children. many were also injured.[/QUOTE]
either i heard wrong from the news, or your numbers are a tab bit low. somewhere along the line of 360 people died (a hundred or more being children) and over a 1000 injured.

[sphuh?]putin[sphuh?] came out the next day and made a Bush II-esque speech about blowing terrorists around the world to hell and back. I, personally, can't wait for this to happen....

[QUOTE=Chixulub]The liberation of the Palestinian people is as legitimate a cause as the liberation of South African blacks. And the ANC did engage in terrorism to advance its agenda. And American foreign policy (during the Cold War) helped prop up the Apartheid regime.

The Palestinian PLO is not Al-Qaeda, even if they have a shared hatred of the Western powers that be. That's a whole separate issue. I said Al-Qaeda had no clear cut goals besides bringing down the West.

[QUOTE]
We armed the Israelis in part because the Soviets armed the PLO and vice versa. Ditto for the Soviet support of the IRA, Castro, the Sandinistas, etc., and our support of whatever the opposite was. Not to mention Korea, Viet Nam, and the arming of what became the Taliban and Al Qaeda's nucleus in Afghanistan. No one ever seemed to ask, 'what happens when these guys don't have Russians to shoot at?' This was the root cause of our alternately arming Iran and Iraq, both bad ideas rooted in the ridiculous theory that the enemy of your enemy is an ally. [/QUOTE]

You missed my point. My point is that being short sighted implies you only look a little way down the road. Neither side did that. They were jockeying for position now and way into the future. The "what happens when these guys don't have Russians to shoot at" wasn't a consideration because there would always be Russians; the cold war would always be the biggest concern. Surely you remember the surrealism of the collapse of the Soviet Union. We thought, the world thought that the East vs. West conflict would dominate the 21st century as it did the 20th. So it might have been poor ethical tactics, but the tactics were sound. You take care of the big bear (ursus) then the wasps stinging you. The bear will kill a lot more.

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The IRA blew up shopping centers and school busses as well as launching mortars into the PM's window (a legit target if ever there was). Terrorism is an effective tool when the desired result is to increase the oppressiveness of the opposition. [/QUOTE]
The IRA as a whole never made such things policy. When you operate on a viral level, as cells, there will be many aberrations from paradigm. Al-Qaeda makes it policy; PLO makes it policy, that's different.

[QUOTE]
It worked for the IRA, it worked for the ANC, it will ultimately work for the PLO and the Chechnyans. It's up to us whether it works for Al Queda. If you clamp down hard enough trying to stop the terrorism, you become scarier to the civilian population than the resistance, and they gain support. That's the driving idea of terrorism. It's also the weapon of choice for people who are legitimately pissed but outgunned by ridiculous margins. [/QUOTE]

Maybe. This isn't the same world. People miss that. September 11 didn't change everything; it was changing on its own. Things are more interconnected and tenuous now. These are no longer local problems. The terrorists seem to be the ones most aware of this and using it to their advantage. The west better wake the fuck up to that.

Chechen rebels with cheap RPG 17's and cell phones create coordinated attacks on Russian columns in Grozny while making sure their media image has the spin they want. They are operating in new paradigms, post modern Marshall McLuhan meets guerilla warfare. Al Qaeda has something similar going on. Their 14th century bullshit is already allowing them to incorporate 21st century Western ideas in their campaign.

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Ghandi's tactics, incidentally, only work in limited circumstances. European Jews would not have stopped the Holocaust with those tactics, nor would Ghandi have had much luck with Stalin.

Gandhi brought the British Empire to their knees. American is closer to that than Stalin and Hitler. These fuckers could learn from that. Don't discount Gandhi just yet.

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An 11th Century education does seem inadequate to me, because I'm an American. I understand where you're coming from. But there are people as uneducated and narrow minded in Tibet, Zaire, West Virginia and The Bronx who aren't going to blow anyone up. The mass hysteria of the Crusades was religiously based and unprovoked (Muslims from Jerusalem were not assaulting Europe, or even talking to Europeans, and were doing a bit of a tourist trade with a few Christian pilgrims, when a demented Pope started saying that anyone who died taking the Holy Land would have all their sins forgiven).

Nietzsche was right, history must be destroyed. And you know what? It is being destroyed, we're leaving history behind. Tenuous steps, very hard to see, but its there. I don't know what's on the other side of this Rubicon, but we will hopefully get a chance to find out.

I am tired of tradition and gods and hanging on to the past. It's done little good for the species in my opinion and 6,000 years of it is enough for me.

People aren't in control of technology anymore and to my mind, that's what largely motivates cultural change. People in Tibet and the Bronx and so forth may have 11 century educations, but you know what? People with 21st century educations aren't in control of this tech.media.culture epoch wee're in either. No one is at the helm anymore. Our creations have superceded and divorced from the parent organism. Memes and progress are bigger than people. The 14th century will get rolled over. That’s about the only thing I have faith in.

But don't fear, we get rolled over as well.

It all very equitable.

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The current conflict would appear to be the same in reverse with these exceptions: Our foreign policy regarding Zionism is a provocation of the Muslim world; we not only do a huge trade with that area of the world in oil and gemstones, we've based troops on what they consider holy soil to be sure the people we consider 'acceptable' are in charge of the flow of oil; we've invaded a country (that was ruled by a tyrant, but so is Cuba), with the express purpose of imposing our STYLE of government, with he express desire that it should spread throught he region.

My prediction is that technology will ease the need for oil and the middle-east will be left to rot by whatever powers there are as Africa is now. Maybe it'll be the Chinese by then. Either way it will be the last empire on Earth. And that's a comforting thought.

Marxist Leninism was a poor idea in execution and I think fundamentally it has issues as well but we don't need to go into all that here.

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Biotech is great if you have shares in Monsanto, but Round-Up ready corn is only good until weeds evolve to tolerate Round-Up. I'm not afraid of so-called Franken-Foods, I'm afraid of a system so dependent on chemicals that famine could result from the destruction of a chemical factory. When I got out of high school, an anti-freeze factory blew up, and it turned out there were only two in the U.S. making all the brands. The other had to pick up the slack, and the price of the shit went throught he roof. Not a major crisis, but what happens if one of two factories that produces some key biotech products has a disaster, and for a couple of years the global food supply is shrunk by 1/3 or more? It may be a few years off, but the trend is there. [Quote]

I'm not talking biotech or ROI's. I'm talking things we haven't even conceived of yet. Something like the transhumanist idea of the singularity. We'll all be dead before it happens, so don't worry, it back and enjoy the Grande Guignol.

I'm working out a way toward enlightened fascism as we speak.

[QUOTE=alex cassun]

[sphuh?]putin[sphuh?] came out the next day and made a Bush II-esque speech about blowing terrorists around the world to hell and back. I, personally, can't wait for this to happen....[/QUOTE]

Rambo and Red Scorpion team up in: Die, Foreigner, Die!

[QUOTE=Chixulub]I believe there was at least one prior use in the Middle East attempted, a Lebanese plane hijacked and aimed at Israel if memory serves. I believe it was shot down over the desert.

It's really just an extension of the Japanese kamikaze technique (they favored young, young pilots for that), dying for an Emperor who ironically was supposed to be a deity and was constantly dodging assassination attempts from the military guys who really drove Japan to war.

Back in 1975, Samuel Byck tried to hijack a plane on the ground to crash it into the White House (he wanted to get Tricky Dick in a bad way). It wasn't the most well executed terrorist attack in history, possibly the most inept.[/QUOTE]

The application itself, the scale was still very lateral thinking.

And the kamikaze (divine wind) [which comes from a typhoon that killed a Mongol invasion by sinking the bulk of their fleet FYI] crashed into battleships and aircraft carriers, not building full of civilians. Giri, of honor, was high on the code of Bushido.

You'll note for instance that they attacked Pearl harbor rather than Honolulu.

[QUOTE=Parkaboy]Rambo and Red Scorpion team up in: Die, Foreigner, Die![/QUOTE]
eh, I was thinking something along the lines of Walker: Texas Ranger teams up with that assassin dude from that natalie portman flick, but you get the idear. or maybe with the shitty-accented russian commander of that nu-clear submarine movie based on that tom clancy novel. you know the one of which i speak.

[QUOTE=alex cassun]either i heard wrong from the news, or your numbers are a tab bit low. somewhere along the line of 360 people died (a hundred or more being children) and over a 1000 injured.
[/QUOTE]

yes, 368 people dead was the final count. fucking horrible.

[QUOTE=alex cassun]eh, I was thinking something along the lines of Walker: Texas Ranger teams up with that assassin dude from that natalie portman flick, but you get the idear. or maybe with the shitty-accented russian commander of that nu-clear submarine movie based on that tom clancy novel. you know the one of which i speak.[/QUOTE]

"Most shings in here don't react well to bulletsh."

[QUOTE=snuffy]yes, 368 people dead was the final count. fucking horrible.[/QUOTE]eh, it wasn't too bad. russians don't count as full people anyhow. so like, 47 russians died compared to our, what, 3500 or so?

[QUOTE=alex cassun]eh, it wasn't too bad. russians don't count as full people anyhow. so like, 47 russians died compared to our, what, 3500 or so?[/QUOTE]

sounds about right.

[QUOTE=alex cassun]eh, it wasn't too bad. russians don't count as full people anyhow. so like, 47 russians died compared to our, what, 3500 or so?[/QUOTE]

It was under 3,000 I believe. Plus, Alex, many were kids, so they only count as half Russians, so that's even less...

[QUOTE=Parkaboy]It was under 3,000 I believe. Plus, Alex, many were kids, so they only count as half Russians, so that's even less...[/QUOTE]
true, but i was counting our homeless. usually i wouldn't, except in comparison with other countries important people, it should be made known that even our lowest scum are better than their emperors and shieks n shit.

what about the dregs of our prisons? still got the foreigners beat?

[QUOTE=alex cassun]true, but i was counting our homeless. usually i wouldn't, except in comparison with other countries important people, it should be made known that even our lowest scum are better than their emperors and shieks n shit.[/QUOTE]

That's just silly. There is no way you could get an accurate count of dead bums. I don't care how many of those new dead bum (transeint kind) sniffin' dogs you had, Cassun.

You just pulled that number out of your ass.

You do the bronze paper bag whiskey-fifth memeorial shame, Alex!

[QUOTE=snuffy]what about the dregs of our prisons? still got the foreigners beat?[/QUOTE]only australia.

[QUOTE=snuffy]what about the dregs of our prisons? still got the foreigners beat?[/QUOTE]

They are all artists, have you seen their ink?

Plus they are all into buggering and drugs as were the ancient Greeks, clearly an evolved civilization.

...that the empire struck first.

It was a grand human tragedy that was only worsened by how it has been used to silence dissent, launch wars, and destroy rights, and help in the campaigns of political warhawks.

I also hate how we are all forced to be ultra sympatheitc. I am sorry for the people that lost friends and family and now it was a shocking event but I didn't lose anyone or anything there so why should I be extra sad that day?

[QUOTE=Gaeasoldier]...that the empire struck first.

It was a grand human tragedy that was only worsened by how it has been used to silence dissent, launch wars, and destroy rights, and help in the campaigns of political warhawks.

I also hate how we are all forced to be ultra sympatheitc. I am sorry for the people that lost friends and family and now it was a shocking event but I didn't lose anyone or anything there so why should I be extra sad that day?[/QUOTE]
Which empire do you mean?

[QUOTE=Parkaboy]The application itself, the scale was still very lateral thinking.

And the kamikaze (divine wind) [which comes from a typhoon that killed a Mongol invasion by sinking the bulk of their fleet FYI] crashed into battleships and aircraft carriers, not building full of civilians. Giri, of honor, was high on the code of Bushido.

You'll note for instance that they attacked Pearl harbor rather than Honolulu.[/QUOTE]
and here i thought they attacked pearl harbour because it thats were the majority of the US's pacific fleet was

[QUOTE=karbunkle]and here i thought they attacked pearl harbour because it thats were the majority of the US's pacific fleet was[/QUOTE]
Consider this: Hawaii was not a state back then. If Al Queda had killed 3000 sailors in Puerto Rico, would we have invaded two countries?

Not sure, because the attack on the Cole and the Embassy bombings didn't generate such impressive body counts.

[QUOTE=Chixulub]Consider this: Hawaii was not a state back then. If Al Queda had killed 3000 sailors in Puerto Rico, would we have invaded two countries?

Not sure, because the attack on the Cole and the Embassy bombings didn't generate such impressive body counts.[/QUOTE]
the difference being in 1941 most of the world was already at war and we were looking for the excuse to allow us into it
on 9/11 there was no major skirmish that was of interest to us

I know. The War on Terror as it's being waged appears to be a way of making up for the lack of a Cold War to waste our money on. We spend as much on defense as the rest of the world combined, and really, why?

It is not difficult to see the reasons for terrorist attacks in todays modern world but when I someone talk about 9/11 like it was the most awful thing that century or even that year I can honestly say I wish to cast aside my pasifistic tendencies, grab them by the hair and then repeatedly knee them in the face.
Yearly millions of people die from the effects of poverty and little action is taken compared to the full scale assault approach taken after 9/11. It is clear that America is unable to see that it needs to address the causes of terrorism.
The richest 225 make as much as the poorest 47% of the population, only 4% of their income would be enough to establish and maintain basic education for all, basic health care for all, reproductive health care for all women, adequate food for all and clean water and safe sewers for all. This works out to about $40 billion (this also works out to about 1/9 of US military expenditure.

Americas involvement in terrorism seems far more dangerous with neumerous dictators being facillitated into power. For example when the CIA assisted coup got general Suharto into power in Indonesia the world bank saw this country as a model pupil. Despite the fact that around 1 million communists were killed by the regime ( some names courtesy of the CIA) the US President said "With its 100 million people and its 300-mile arc of islands containing the region's richest hoard of natural resources, Indonesia is the greatest prize in Southeast Asia."

Malcom X said something along the lines of history being the memory of a people, and It is clear from the facts being left behind who are the corrupt and poor rulers of this generation. It is clear from the appauling mistakes made by the IMF in dealing with emerging market economies that the developed world is not able to govern the world.

Perhaps america should deal with its own national debt before it interferes with other countries.

[QUOTE=Parkaboy]The third.

That means leather. Falling buildings remind be of Fight Club where "You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life."

I still can't get over the box cutters.

But the planes as missles was a hell of a lateral idea.

[img]http://home.comcast.net/~dlites/tttoys.jpg[/img]

Any thought's on this anniversary as the media bombards you with forced senitiment, over-anlaysis and recontextualization?[/QUOTE]
if the "terrorists" wanted to have a body count, they would have done this at 12 noon instead of in the morn. i heard that before this happened that 200,000 people would be in and out of the building in 24 hours. (amerika and other capatalist areas kill more people a day in various ways than those terrorists ever did on 9/11.)
it was done to shut down wall street. money............

[QUOTE=friedmonkey]Yearly millions of people die from the effects of poverty and little action is taken compared to the full scale assault approach taken after 9/11.[/QUOTE]

Yep. And they don't care if it doesn't affect them. I love how the news media was acting like this affected the entire world so horribly and everyone in the *world* was all poopy that day.

Uh, probably not. We're so arrogant it embarasses me.