5,500 Iraqi Deaths

That's cuz they're usually hiding from our stormtroopers.

[QUOTE]The death toll recorded by the Baghdad morgue was an average of 357 violent deaths each month from May through April. That contrasts with an average of 14 a month for 2002, Hassan's documents showed.[/QUOTE]
They were safer under Hussein.

I'm against the war, and against President Bush and all he stands for, but you, Ozymandias, have GOT to be fucking shitting me.

I am really curious to know what, if anything, goes through your little mind before you make these pronouncements. If you'd moved your eyes about two centimeters above your little post, you would have seen that Psychokeety put up NUMBERS--[I]FACTS[/I]--re the number of Iraqis killed under both regimes. I know this is difficult for you, but 13,000 is a BIGGER NUMBER than 5,500. Idiot.

I'm not saying that Iraqis are doing well. I'm not saying we did the right thing by destabilizing their country. But "better off under Hussein"? I've refrained from flaming anyone on this board for a while now, but I'm sorry, you're just the worst kind of retard. First the Christianity shit in the "curing homosexuality" thread and now this. Do us all a favor: if you can't have a coherent thought before you pound out some witless remark on your little keyboard, find a fucking Limp Bizkit forum somewhere and save us all some time.

[QUOTE=insomnomaniac]I'm against the war, and against President Bush and all he stands for, but you, Ozymandias, have GOT to be fucking shitting me.

I am really curious to know what, if anything, goes through your little mind before you make these pronouncements. If you'd moved your eyes about two centimeters above your little post, you would have seen that Psychokeety put up NUMBERS--[I]FACTS[/I]--re the number of Iraqis killed under both regimes. I know this is difficult for you, but 13,000 is a BIGGER NUMBER than 5,500. Idiot.

I'm not saying that Iraqis are doing well. I'm not saying we did the right thing by destabilizing their country. But "better off under Hussein"? I've refrained from flaming anyone on this board for a while now, but I'm sorry, you're just the worst kind of retard. First the Christianity shit in the "curing homosexuality" thread and now this. Do us all a favor: if you can't have a coherent thought before you pound out some witless remark on your little keyboard, find a fucking Limp Bizkit forum somewhere and save us all some time.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.edinburg.lib.tx.us/salute.jpg[/img]superman and i salute your post.

*curtsies*

Amnesty International has the figures higher, also I think those figures of 200,000 deaths are misleading. After 1991 we told the Iraqis to rise up against him but we let Saddam off the hook, so he could slaughter all those people.

[url]http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/032004H.shtml[/url]

So sad to know more than half of America is clueless at the fact that more innocent civilians died in both Afghanistan and Iraq because of the "war on terrorism" than on 9/11. Hell, even each country's war by themselves was more than the 3000+.

[QUOTE=DrGonzoHST]Amnesty International has the figures higher, also I think those figures of 200,000 deaths are misleading. After 1991 we told the Iraqis to rise up against him but we let Saddam off the hook, so he could slaughter all those people.[/QUOTE]
AND I'm sure a fair share of that number is also made up of Iraqis who starved to death because of UN sanctions and were lumped in with those killed by the Hussein regime. They're the ones who make up most of the, "mass graves", since, between the Gulf War and last year's invasion, we were killing Iraqi civilians at such a high rate that there wasn't any place else to put them. Since the victims were always the poorest of Iraq society (no regime member ever suffered the slightest from the decade+ of sanctions (wait Ozy, only the poor suffered from a US policy? Say it ain't so!)) they had no money for any kind of dignified service or burial.
Most of this happened under Clinton, by the way. Never forget that.

5,500 isn't as bad as it could be. Sorry... I know it's "bad" and the deaths of innocents is not ideal, even in war. But, the world has done worse things:

Atlantic slave trade: 2.5M deaths.
Islamic slave trade: 3M deaths.
Taiping Rebellion (1850-64): 20-30M deaths.
India (1800-1838): 500,000 ritual murders
American Civil War (1861-65): Battle deaths: 140,414 Other deaths: 224,097
WWII Extermination of the Jews: 4,194,200 and 4,851,200

But, fuck it... who's counting.....

[QUOTE=DrGonzoHST][url]http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/032004H.shtml[/url][/QUOTE]

"More than 10.000[sic] Iraqi civilians have been killed since the American invasion of Iraq a year ago, asserts Amnesty International, which denounces the 'flagrant violations' of human rights in the country in a report released March 18. These figures corroborate the figure given by Iraq Body Count, a site which captures and collates data from numerous sources and which [B]exceeded the threshold of [U]10,000[/U] civilians killed[/B] on February 8.

'One year after the beginning of the war in Iraq, the promise of an improvement in human rights for Iraqis is far from being realized,' asserts the human rights defense organization in its report.

According to Amnesty, it is estimated that '[B][U]over 10,000[/U] Iraqi civilians have been killed in a year as a result of the military intervention in Iraq and the occupation which has followed[/B]. 'One year after the war began, Iraqi civilians are still being killed every day,' emphasizes the report, according to which, 'a great number of them seem to have died either because of excessive use of force by American troops or were killed in controversial circumstances.'"

This topic be in need of an edit in its title, methinks.

I wonder how many children die every day with the help of the Catholic Church's postition on birth control. No condoms, no pills, no fucking, no abortions, no gay sex that doesn't produce fruit. You pretty much got to figure that people are going to fuck anyway. But once they're out of the womb, fuck 'em. And I'm supposed to feel bad and help subsidize their existence. [I]Send that guy a goddamned box of condoms![/I] is what I'm screaming at the TV. And empower the women to make the guys use them. Fuck the Pope and what he says about birth control.

[QUOTE=DillingerEscape]5,500 isn't as bad as it could be. Sorry... I know it's "bad" and the deaths of innocents is not ideal, even in war. But, the world has done worse things:

Atlantic slave trade: 2.5M deaths.
Islamic slave trade: 3M deaths.
Taiping Rebellion (1850-64): 20-30M deaths.
India (1800-1838): 500,000 ritual murders
American Civil War (1861-65): Battle deaths: 140,414 Other deaths: 224,097
WWII Extermination of the Jews: 4,194,200 and 4,851,200

But, fuck it... who's counting.....[/QUOTE]

I'm gonna tell a little bt of a story here and then explain it to you.... It'll be fun....

When I was much younger growing up in southern Alabama(Mobile... the big rebel flag buckle of the bible belt) I was getting my ass kicked in a pretty brutal fashion in my neighborhood. Fucking hate rednecks. So as these fucks are havibg the time of their short worthless lives, I figure maybe if i stop fighting back they will go find something else to play with. So I do this and one by one the fuckers start to back off. So a few weeks later I get some friends from around the neighborhood and we do an old fashion witch hunt betting the piss out of those involved. A couple of the ones who caught the wraith had never laid a hand on me. They simply stood by and watched, which to me warrents at least couple of kicks...
Moral: A) Stop fighting and they stop beating
When they stop beating you can call in back up and return the favor
C) Innocent people will be hurt. It's unavoidable.

A question I do have is how many of the total dead in your counts were unlawful combatants?

[QUOTE=meatthinker]I wonder how many children die every day with the help of the Catholic Church's postition on birth control. No condoms, no pills, no fucking, no abortions, no gay sex that doesn't produce fruit. You pretty much got to figure that people are going to fuck anyway. But once they're out of the womb, fuck 'em. And I'm supposed to feel bad and help subsidize their existence. [I]Send that guy a goddamned box of condoms![/I] is what I'm screaming at the TV. And empower the women to make the guys use them. Fuck the Pope and what he says about birth control.[/QUOTE]

By children dying, I'm guessing you mean abortions? So if you are going to blame the death of children via abortion on the Catholic Church because of their stance on no birth control then you should also give them the benefit of the "pro-life" stance which would cancel out your abortion is the Pope's fault argument. And you should wait at least 18 years after they are out the womb to "fuck 'em", would hate to see you go to jail for your religious convictions.

[QUOTE=DillingerEscape]I figure maybe if i stop fighting back they will go find something else to play with. So I do this and one by one the fuckers start to back off...
Moral: A) Stop fighting and they stop beating[/QUOTE]

Whoa, you're like Gandhi 2K.

[QUOTE=DillingerEscape]So a few weeks later I get some friends from around the neighborhood and we do an old fashion witch hunt betting the piss out of those involved. A couple of the ones who caught the wraith had never laid a hand on me. They simply stood by and watched, which to me warrents at least couple of kicks...
When they stop beating you can call in back up and return the favor[/QUOTE]

Er, maybe not...

[QUOTE=Ozymandias]Whoa, you're like Gandhi 2K.
Er, maybe not...[/QUOTE]

I got split personalities. I go form the Dalai Lama to Rambo in .065 seconds.

[url]http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=4206[/url]

in case anyone actually wants to consider the other side of this...

Panties. On their heads. And we took pictures.

The weirdest thing about hearing the death count in Iraq is that I’m not that assed anymore. Seeing it or hearing it on the news every single day has desensitised me to feeling any compunction, empathy or sympathy. Recently, at Charles De Gaul airport six people died after the ceiling caved in. This came straight after hearing about another suicide bomber taking out a busload of innocent Iraqis, and I’m like, “Christ, six people. That’s awful.”

Hey, meatthinker, I'm not sure where your birth control hype came from, or how it relates to this topic. However, I've got an interesting little fact for ya--birth control can not, and will not, equate to population control. It doesn't matter how many fucking condoms and pills you send to the starving masses--becuase, paradoxilly (bad spelling, i know), they are starving becuase they have (or at least had) too much fucking FOOD. How do I know this? Well, simple, no population can reach the size it is without enouph food to get it there.

Im sure the history for most places where people are starving in mass goes something like this: They planted their crops, had large surpluses, had lotsa babies becuase they could feed that many (this wasn't a concious desicion, btw, its just animal ecology)--then, most likely, their land became less and less capable of producing enouph food to go around. Famines happened and people went into a state of abject poverty and starvation.

That's just the basics of it, of course, one has to facter in how the government affected the situation, ad infinitum.

What im getting at though is what I've already stated: Birth control does NOT equate to population control. Think of it like this.. the more food you send them, the more mouths there will be to feed the next year.

Quick note on the issue at hand..

I'm.. appaled at the length's some individuals will go to in order to follow the path they have chosen.. Case in point: the prison guard under saddam (i assume) who did those vile things to that woman and her husband. Hearing of atrocities such as that fills me with the urge to go out and be like.. the wrath of ME! kind of a thing, ya know? This goes out to all the sick mother fuckers of the world: Why in the FUCK would you ever consider it alright to EVER harm another person outside of personal protection or protection of another?

Sometimes, when you hear shit like that, its easy to believe that mankind is somehow cursed.. a doomed species just by innate means. Fuck those assholes who gives humanit a bad name, I hope they all get engulfed in some painful fucking plague or something..

5500, 10000, whatever.. that's nothing. People die en masse so fucking often it hardly matters anymore. 6 billion people.. you figure we've got a few to spare. I just hope that most of those who die come from our culture and not the cultures i've come to cherish the most.

[QUOTE=Tuffy the Dump Truck]Panties. On their heads. And we took pictures.[/QUOTE]

Best. Response. Ever.

We are doing some good out there. I am by no means for the war or policing the world or any of that shit, but it makes me feel a little better:

Ray Reynolds:

"As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened.

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster
*The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war
* Elections are taking place in every major city,
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. "

No, I mean children that would have been better off as dead sperm in a rubber sack, shot on a wall, spit or swallowed, splattered on naked breasts, but daddy and mommy listen to the Pope and still like to fuck, and the Pope says that sex is only for conception. So they have another kid that they can't feed, and the kid starves or gets sick or whatever because there aren't enough resources to support it and then the kid dies. The net effect is worse than an abortion because we're talking conscious, self-aware, suffering children, created because people are told to either be celibate or make babies, and that they will go to hell if they do anything between one of those alternatives.

An abortion in some cases would be more humane than the alternative. The kangaroo rips the fetus out of the sack in times of drought. But I don't think abortions should be relied upon either, when there are better alternatives like condoms and birth control pills, which are also verboten by His Holiness. I think that's an extremely irresponsible and unethical position to take on birth control in this day and age, but the Pope is all cozy in the Vatican, he doesn't have to live every day with the consequences of his policies and children dying in the streets.

You have got to be joking about my [I]religious convictions,[/I] dude, read my other posts. I am one of the most anti-religious people who I know. I don't blame the Pope for abortions, I blame him for banning abortions inside the womb, but effectively advocating children being born into an environment that can't support them where they die as a result. [I]Negligent[/I] isn't the right word, but it's the first one that comes to mind.

Don't even get me started about the coverup of child-diddling priests. But the Catholic Church is just the most visible and with the most resources and political power. There are a lot of other religions that are just as bad if not worse. Anyone who says that religion is the source of morality had better take a look around. On average, religious people aren't any better than non-believers, they aren't any more moral. Religion is just like any other institution that becomes a habit, it doesn't make people any better.

[QUOTE=DillingerEscape]By children dying, I'm guessing you mean abortions? So if you are going to blame the death of children via abortion on the Catholic Church because of their stance on no birth control then you should also give them the benefit of the "pro-life" stance which would cancel out your abortion is the Pope's fault argument. And you should wait at least 18 years after they are out the womb to "fuck 'em", would hate to see you go to jail for your religious convictions.[/QUOTE]

My point was, yeah the Iraq deal sounds bad, but lots of people are dying from other shit every day that pretty much goes ignored because it lacks [I]drama[/I] it isn't [I]newsworthy[/I]. Three fucking rich people die in a fiery airplane crash, and it's a special news flash. Three thousand children die from disease and starvation, and ho hum, oh well. And while I was thinking about that, it just kind of dawned on me the fallout of the Pope's position on birth control. I guess with the long incubation period and the failure rate of some birth control methods, what you say sounds feasible, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't make a dent in the results of people's reproductive behavior. How come the US population isn't exploding way out of control? Whatever the case, it's a hard problem to tackle, if not impossible, but I'm like [I]I didn't fuck that woman and get her pregnant and have that child[/I]. It's terrible this kid is going to die, but it's not my fault. I wish the parents had thought about the consequences, but it's amazing how ignorant people are, Ive heard people say shit like "God gave this child to me" like it's a mystery how she got pregnant, a miracle. I don't want to sound prejudiced, but usually it's poor, hispanic women I hear saying this in Spanish (I'm married to a hispanic woman who is not like that, so I can't be totally prejudiced, I just have a problem with that ignorant attitude). I'd like to say, [I]No, you fucked whoever, he shot his wad, and you got knocked up, there was no mystery about it, it was the direct consequences of your actions, it was not a fucking accident.[/I] People act like they have no control over what happens. It's like OK you didn't have enough food, so you had another kid, and now you have even less food, and these are the consequences, so deal, you are responsible for this result.

[QUOTE=RunAmok]Hey, meatthinker, I'm not sure where your birth control hype came from, or how it relates to this topic. However, I've got an interesting little fact for ya--birth control can not, and will not, equate to population control. It doesn't matter how many fucking condoms and pills you send to the starving masses--becuase, paradoxilly (bad spelling, i know), they are starving becuase they have (or at least had) too much fucking FOOD. How do I know this? Well, simple, no population can reach the size it is without enouph food to get it there.

Im sure the history for most places where people are starving in mass goes something like this: They planted their crops, had large surpluses, had lotsa babies becuase they could feed that many (this wasn't a concious desicion, btw, its just animal ecology)--then, most likely, their land became less and less capable of producing enouph food to go around. Famines happened and people went into a state of abject poverty and starvation.

That's just the basics of it, of course, one has to facter in how the government affected the situation, ad infinitum.

What im getting at though is what I've already stated: Birth control does NOT equate to population control. Think of it like this.. the more food you send them, the more mouths there will be to feed the next year.[/QUOTE]

PBS's Frontline did a really good piece on Iraq after the war. It was inspiring to see how we can do good there. But I still don't think you can force freedom on people. I don't think America would have been the same if the French freed us from the British and then kept their troops in America for a couple years to make sure we played ball economically. I think we had a great opportunity after the first Gulf War and we blew it, and we had a good opportunity to get some international support for Iraqi freedom from Saddam but we blew that too.

[QUOTE=meatthinker]No, I mean children that would have been better off as dead sperm in a rubber sack, shot on a wall, spit or swallowed, splattered on naked breasts, but daddy and mommy listen to the Pope and still like to fuck, and the Pope says that sex is only for conception. So they have another kid that they can't feed, and the kid starves or gets sick or whatever because there aren't enough resources to support it and then the kid dies. The net effect is worse than an abortion because we're talking conscious, self-aware, suffering children, created because people are told to either be celibate or make babies, and that they will go to hell if they do anything between one of those alternatives.[/QUOTE]

Seriously I'm trying to understand your argument on this point....
You're saying people listen to the pope and don't use birth control....
But, then people don't listen to the pope and fuck anyway....
So, make sure I have this right, the pope is wrong because he tells people what is "right" and then gives them a way to get around a problem that he may have caused? By what is "right": no birth control. By way to get around a problem: no fucking unless you want a bunch of kids.
How about this one... use a little bit of self-control. And if you believe not being celebate is going to send you to hell.... then be fucking celebate. People seem to try and make things harder than they need to be. Why suffer thru this shit? Don't make problems you don't need. We have an epidemic much worse than AIDS, world hunger, and war. Stupidity seems to be the plague of our times.

[QUOTE=DrGonzoHST]PBS's Frontline did a really good piece on Iraq after the war. It was inspiring to see how we can do good there. But I still don't think you can force freedom on people. I don't think America would have been the same if the French freed us from the British and then kept their troops in America for a couple years to make sure we played ball economically. I think we had a great opportunity after the first Gulf War and we blew it, and we had a good opportunity to get some international support for Iraqi freedom from Saddam but we blew that too.[/QUOTE]

OK OK I'll admit... maybe just maybe things didn't go as planed.... maybe.
But, this whole thing is still salvagable. And I didn't think you needed to force freedom. I always thought that the natural aspiration of the human mind was the cessation of suffering and freedom to live with out fear. But maybe, just maybe I'm wrong....