2009 Iranian Elections or... Protests with out cellphones WTF?
So Iran had an election. The smack talking Dr. Ahmadinejad has been declared a winner by a huge margin. Even though tens of thousands of people have been marching in the streets in favor of his opponent Mir-Hossein Moussavi.
Iran has a huge percentage of the population under 30 years old. Much of this is due to the war with Iraq that killed off millions of people. So all these young people are for Moussavi, yet he loses by a larger scale than any election in US history. The government is reporting that the it's 68% to 32%. Those numbers are impossible.
Cenk Uygur of the Huffington post put up a nice article.
You can find it here - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/iranian-elections-were-ob_b_215...
All cell phone use and most all other forms of communication were cut off by the Iranian government. Who uses cell phones? Young people. Who got fucked in the election? Young people.
here is an article about that - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090613/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election_109
There were reports of people being beat at the polling places and just straight up turned away. Even though the polls in some places were kept open for up to three extra hours. There were even polling places set up in other countries, including America, Great Britain and even China.
The Liberal Israeli paper Ha'aretz is reporting that Moussavi has been arrested. here is the link - www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092304.html And that there is a ban on protests in Iran now. Police have been sent out to the streets where supporters had been gathering.
Is the Revolutionary Guard guarding against revolution?
Iran is a big deal right now. Israeli's don't trust them, the US government doesn't trust them, I doubt Hizbullah, who receives money from them trusts them. A nuclear Iran would be hazardous to the world especially when you have such mistrust between neighbors.
I have been thinking about Iran for quite a few years. I like the Persian people. Remember, they are NOT Arab, they are Persian. Have their own language and culture. they are very savvy and very smart. I once wrote a email to Dr. Ahmadinejad. Here is what I got back from him.
dr-ahmadinejad@president.ir
to me
show details 10/6/07
Reply
Follow up message
Dear Robert Daley
We beg to inform you that your E-mail dated 2007/09/22 was received. We
wish health and success for you from the Almighty .
with regard
The Islamic Republic of IRAN presidential site
I know, I kick ass, I have an email from a powerful wacko and he's not even a Cultie! Health and success for ME from the Almighty. Fuck yeah!
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
That was Iraq.
It's the Islamic Republic of Iran. They're a republic, like America!
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
'election' is such an ambiguous word now adays.
remember, remember the second of november ('04!)
Very troubling to watch. The constant updates on Twitter and other sites that make traditional media completely obsolete is amazing and at times a very intense first person account.
Conspiracy theory crackpot time...
...so, GWB tried Reeeeeaaaaallly hard to push the "Iran's got nukes, we gotta stop 'em!" meme, but nobody really bought it.
Is this just another tactic?
"The election's rigged! The leader has seized power and he's a madman! We gotta stop 'em!"
I kinda feel like one way or another, they're trying to find a way to make war with Iran palatable to the masses.
It was interesting to me that Obama said that Iran should be able to have nuclear energy.
"find a way to make war with Iran palatable to the masses."
there was a poll in Israel in which 50ish% of the population said to bomb the Iranian reactors. then later in the article it said "if they are making a bomb"
BTW: I just finally added Obama to the dictionary of this computer. So sad to see a President with a red line under him.
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
BTW: I just finally added Obama to the dictionary of this computer. So sad to see a President with a red line under him.
!!! More subliminal hints the red scare is coming back !!!
Really, dude? Really?
MonkeyMike: Yeah, that angle's probably going to get played. But that doesn't mean the elections weren't rigged. Both sides can be wrong, ya know?
And Ritt: If only, comrade.
The elections were totally rigged.
Moussavi had more campaign volunteers is his home district than he had votes. How the hell does that happen?
The median age of Iran is like 27 or something. And he had the young vote. This is going to get real bad for the people there. The Gov't still has most websites and text messaging shut down.
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
Oh, it's not that I don't believe it was rigged. I'm just saying, mutually, there's something in it for two aggressive regimes to get it on. Israel's ready to jump into this. And while the US has stood by on plenty of other fake elections in countries with oppressive regimes, I'm sure noise will be made about this. The protest today was amazing!
How are they gonna blame it on Bush if they do that though? They sure won't blame Obama. Unless there's someway to say it's Bush's fault for NOT attacking them when he was in office, they won't do anything.
In case it wasn't obvious, I was being sarcastic. A common American misconception is that Iran, like the rest of the camel countries, is some desert graveyard with zero civilization. Also, most archists/statetheists believe democracy to be a measure of civility, even though its a joke, replacing morality with majority. S'like, "It's chaotic over there? They must not have voting then, cause it solves problems. Hail Democracy!" Iran is neither voteless nor chaotic...well, it's no more chaotic than anywhere else with a government.
"They sold you hippies grunge, hip hop, now liberty activism."
I'm sure Obama will be called out though, with his whole "Sit down and talk with them" thing he's got going. It's a burger flip, though...For the past eight years, America blamed the Republicans for every mishap and what not. Now it's the Democrats' turn. The meat still burns, just on a different side...I don't know, I'm drunk.
also, how is not having cell phones supposed to prevent people from voting?
It doesn't...
The point of cellphone and net service being shut down is to disrupt any attempt at an organized massive protest.
didn't they have organized protests before cell phones and internets? What was that whole 60's thing?
Just like they had wars before guns, but you won't find any volunteers to fight 'em nowadays without one.
"They sold you hippies grunge, hip hop, now liberty activism."
so no one will protest if they don't get their cell phones and innernets? They deserve all the shit they get then.
"If i get shot with a beanbag shotgun, by God, I better be able to blog about it!"
Thought-Terminating Clichés detected. The issue of whether it was justified to cut cell service is being ignored.
Looking back at the gun/war analogy, perhaps I should clarify. You won't find anyone willing to fight a war without a gun in which the opponent has firearms.
"They sold you hippies grunge, hip hop, now liberty activism."
Looking back at the gun/war analogy, perhaps I should clarify. You won't find anyone willing to fight a war without a gun in which the opponent has firearms.
Agreed, though the phrase "though-terminating cliches" annoys the hell out of me.
Yeah, speaking from experience, cell phones and the internet are a massive, massive boon to organizing. To the point that they have largely supplanted any other form of networking, and that if access to them were cut of in the US, it would be a massive blow to any kind of organizing effort because organizers just aren't experienced in fliering, etc. That, and the old forms like fliering have been been pretty much outlawed here in the states, and, I imagine, elsewhere.
Why have a stunted view of an issue though? The issue of whether it's alright or not to cut cell service seems to be down the list of importance. The main thing is whether the election was rigged or not, no?
also, please don't tell me you think it's a right to have access to cell phones and internet.
Is the Revolutionary Guard guarding against revolution?
Sadly, it tends to go this way. Exhibit A: Barcelona circa 1936. Exhibit B: the Bolshevik government draining the power of the soviets after they secured governmental power for them.
also, please don't tell me you think it's a right to have access to cell phones and internet.
Cutting off access to those resources is a sign that the election was rigged. It's an indicator that the party in power wanted to limit the ability of their opponents to resist, and certainly gives credence to the idea that they would do so in other areas as well.
And I don't know if it's a right. The concept of rights is pretty iffy, I'd say. I see it in terms of the people in power seeking to prevent whatever means of someone else taking power as they can. So, in terms of the Western Enlightenment ideal of rights, the services themselves might not be rights, the participation in politics that they afford is a right.
I guess I can understand them being so important here in America, but it just baffles me that they would in other parts of the world.
You shouldn't need a flier or a cell phone to know when shit like this goes down to storm on the capitol.
The Iranian people are upset because the guy who stole the election also has the power to turn off their cell phones?
But the Iranian people would much rather give the other guy the power to turn off their cell phones?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the Iranians will get used to it.
Love,
Joe Tonigh
It's insane a girl friend of mine over there was giving updates on her facebook but half of them were in Farsi so I lost track.
But I have to say if I'm ever in charge of rigging an election, I'm gonna make the vote 53% to 47% not two to one.
Really I hope things over there probably won't change, the president of Iran is the 13th of 15th person in charge, the Mullahs run the show. I hope the CIA is on the ground papering the resistance. Something they failed to do in 99 when the student uprisings happened.
Stay Gold Http://rorygold.com
Yeah, 'cause the last time the CIA got involved in Iranian politics, it went so well.
Good lord.
A comment on "rights"... No one has rights inherently. No one. People only have what others with the power to control you allow you to have. It wasn't too long ago that men had to carry guns or swords to protect themselves from the constant threat of physical violence and women, well very recently women had nothing and were routinely raped and beaten. all of this was within the realm of accepted behavior.
The only rights people have are the rights the ones with power over them allow them to have. I do not have the right to free speech with out the government of my country allowing it.
The people of Iran were told they had the right to a vote for the person they wished. They got that right. Now, were they told they had a a right for the votes to be counted, prolly, they sure do seem to think so.
The one truism about rights is that Might makes Right and in Iran, the perceived might decided what was right. I say perceived because the government only holds power because of the perception of power. If and when the masses rise up perception changes.
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
Daley, I was thinking about this the other day, when I made my first response, and I agree with you, more or less, though I would phrase it thusly: the rights held by people are no more than what the government is afraid to take away. People have to make their own rights by limiting the activity of the government. That's how the Enlightenment, of which our Constitution is a result, was so effective. It enshrined as "God-given" the rights that its participants were determined to protect.
^^^^ i concur with the above statement.
Also, If voting worked, they would outlaw it.
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
Too, though I don't really know this organization, I like the analysis in this article:
http://www.marxist.com/18th-brumaire-ahmadinejad.htm
Blast away, Giggan.
Also, If voting worked, they would outlaw it.
^5 for Emma Goldman quotage.
They are on the ground for sure. The people of Iran, well Tehran specifically want reform, the rural areas are decidedly for the current prez. The US has no business being there in a public way but if they can encourage a counter revolution it would be welcomed by the rest of the world.
But for the change to happen it will require the military to support the reform side. Demonstrations alone won't remove the Mullahs that hold the power.
Stay Gold Http://rorygold.com
Send em McDonald's and quilted toilet paper. That's how we took down the USSR!
The only rights people have are the rights the ones with power over them allow them to have. I do not have the right to free speech with out the government of my country allowing it.
The people of Iran were told they had the right to a vote for the person they wished. They got that right. Now, were they told they had a a right for the votes to be counted, prolly, they sure do seem to think so.
The one truism about rights is that Might makes Right and in Iran, the perceived might decided what was right. I say perceived because the government only holds power because of the perception of power. If and when the masses rise up perception changes.
I disagree wholeheartedly, yet understand completely what would cause you to make such a conclusion. This is a sort of subjectivist/objectivist thing, whether or not the concept truly exists.
Rights are concepts, no more true or existent than 'morality'. Yet would you go so far as to say morality does not exist, or can't be judged? Issues of right and wrong are often complicated and confusing, but as an objective thinker, I feel it a cop-out to say 'everything is subjective. There is no definitive right and wrong, ever'.
That said, I don't claim to know definitively what is right and wrong, moral and immoral, etc. But that it could be measured using logic, I contend.
The issue of what rights are is complicated. And also, in order to properly communicate, we must understand how we are defining words. Rights I define as moral prohibitions, freedoms and abilities of others that it is not universally preferable to violate (Ie, if I can steal from you, you can steal from myself, we'd both prefer not to steal from each other, and instead voluntarily exchange goods, thus, stealing is not universally preferable, thus, you have a property right, a right not to be stolen from). That's an oversimplified and juvenile explanation of property rights, which I believe are objective concepts. Being objective concepts, nobody calling themselves 'the government' can take away these rights, they can only violate them. The moral highground, remaining conceptual, remains on your side independent of the actions of others. Thus, you have a right to the cheese which you justly acquired whether person A steals it or not. Whether the cheese remains with you, the right to your cheese continues to exist in the conceptual realm.
Saying that 'rights are the amount of violence government people decide against exerting against you' is like saying 'Bob was murdered by government people. Government people made everyone believe Bob caused his own death. Thus, Bob caused his own death'. While perception can be believed to be reality, if 100 people see an elephant, and 1 person sees a chair, and I see an elephant, I'm willing to wager that the object is an elephant, and not a chair. Saying 'it could be both' is a philosophical cop-out.
Which is why I'm neither a nihilist nor a determinist, but that's a whole nuther whathaveyou.
http://www.marxist.com/18th-brumaire-ahmadinejad.htm
Blast away, Giggan.
Wow, I was expecting much worse. I actually dug that article myself. I didn't read that whole thing, but ctrl+f'd 'capital' to see if and where they misrepresent and blame capitalism/voluntary interaction for social injustice, and the only use of 'capital' is when it's incorrectly used in place of 'capitol'.
The whole idea of reform causing people to get pissed and revolt is interesting. That's how the Russian Revolution was presented in a class I took, as a modernization that started on its way, but not fast enough in the eyes of the revolutionaries.
"They sold you hippies grunge, hip hop, now liberty activism."
Damnit Giggan! I was going to blast him but you beat me to the punch.
Step back. Evaluate. Recognize.
"Him" being the 'no one has rights' guy, not PFives.
Step back. Evaluate. Recognize.
Well thank you for not taking the time to read my user name and only referring to me as "Him"
And if you bothered to read my post you would have noticed that i said "no one has rights inherently" I did not say no one has rights.
Anyways, my name is RKDaley or Daley or Robert so now you can "blast" me. go one, don't be shy...
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
he did give you a capital Him, like you're God or something. so there is that.
I did notice that Nate, and I was going to comment on it but I thought it would take away from the "snippiness" of my comment.
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
Or like it was the first word of the sentence!
Step back. Evaluate. Recognize.
no one capitalizes those on here. it had to be intentional !
I choose to believe it was meant as meaning Godlike. Because I just happen to be. Well, maybe I'm more Godish.
Anyway.... Iran is off the fucking hook. People are getting killed. in their homes, by the government. And yes... lots of countries kill their citizens (or in England subjects) in their homes, but this is bad news. These people actually thought they could institute some change and they know who is really in charge, it's The "Islamic" Republic of Iran. The God lovers are in charge. But to outright say fuck you to the voting public is almost unheard of *cough-bush/gore*cough-florida cough*
So the Persians have way more guts than us Americans. We had a stolen election that put a dipshit warmonger in power and we didn't do shit. The Iranians are protesting knowing full well that they can very likely be killed for it. God bless their sand filled little hearts.
The United States Congress made an official statement renouncing the elections in Iran. OOOHHH.. Fucking pussies writing a paper and standing in safety while people die in the streets of Tehran.
Long live people who are willing to take a chance in this life.
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
Rights are concepts, no more true or existent than 'morality'. Yet would you go so far as to say morality does not exist, or can't be judged?
Yes, if existence is what is real as opposed to what is part of "reality."
thanks for sharing.blackhawk tactical pants.
— Spambot
"I could have done worse!" exultantly cried the murderer Lebret, sentenced at Rouen to hard labor for life. — Félix Fénéon
This article's better, I think, and goes a little bit more into the class and economic aspects of the situation:
http://socialistworker.org/2009/06/23/between-revolt-and-repression
Also, Giggan: Three hundred years ago, the rights held by the peasantry in connection to their land was taken for granted, yet the currently accepted liberal system of rights was not. The concept of what is a right and what is not changes with time, and is always dependent on what the ruling class can do without fear of revolt. Historically, the ruling class in an area has gotten away with as much as it possibly could, sanctifying its failure in other areas as the result of them respecting the rights of the people. I see no reason why the same wouldn't hold true today.
Sorry Iran, I guess you won't have a revolution for another thirty years. Michael Jackson died, did you know?
I'm going to stupidly call it now, and say ten. Ten years is my estimate. The concerned-liberal-who-wants-everyone-to-just-love-each-other,-man strata will be sorely disappointed in a couple months (unless we invade-then they'll be sorely, sorely disappointed), but yeah, I'm saying, in ten years, there's some sort of revolution in Iran.
Though I've yet to take into account the death of His Poppiness on Iran. Will report back later, but expect the widespread sorrow of the Iranian people to push the prediction back at least a generation...
Anyway.... Iran is off the fucking hook. People are getting killed. in their homes, by the government. And yes... lots of countries kill their citizens (or in England subjects) in their homes, but this is bad news. These people actually thought they could institute some change and they know who is really in charge, it's The "Islamic" Republic of Iran. The God lovers are in charge. But to outright say fuck you to the voting public is almost unheard of *cough-bush/gore*cough-florida cough*
So the Persians have way more guts than us Americans. We had a stolen election that put a dipshit warmonger in power and we didn't do shit. The Iranians are protesting knowing full well that they can very likely be killed for it. God bless their sand filled little hearts.
The United States Congress made an official statement renouncing the elections in Iran. OOOHHH.. Fucking pussies writing a paper and standing in safety while people die in the streets of Tehran.
Long live people who are willing to take a chance in this life.
You're an idiot.
"You're an idiot." - ejrathke
I know...I am back on the pills though.
"well she's either a cruel horny bitch or she might actually like you." - audreythirteen
They have elections in Iran? I thought that they just shot at each other with RPGs and denied the holocaust.
"They sold you hippies grunge, hip hop, now liberty activism."
http://freeconcord.org