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Newbie feels apprehensive
Hi
I just recently signed up for the writers workshop after a long debate with myself. As soon as I submitted my payment info and logged in to check out the whole process, I grew apprehensive again. The reason being, I feel very uneasy about taking my work and putting it out there in cyberspace for hundreds of strangers to read and digest how they see fit. I assume these are pretty normal feelings for most people on here. I have to admit, criticism and the idea of people dissecting my writing scares me a little, but I know its essential to put yourself out there, to recieve constructive and possibly destructive feedback. Anyway, Im wondering if any of you out there have shared my concerns but feel that doing this has ultimately been rewarding and has enhanced your writing experience . I look forward to hearing from you
thanks
Hey man, welcome to the Cult. I can't speak to the atmosphere of the premium workshop here, since I'm not a member, but I did take the recent intensive with Craig Clevenger, which had plenty of people from the workshop in it. Based on that, I can tell you with authority that there are people here who can give you really in-depth, constructive critiques, if you pull your weight. Meaning reviewing others' work and not just posting your own, etc.
I think the workshop had a rough patch of late, but I haven't heard any griping lately, so I guess it's functional again. I know some of the diehards jumped right back in once it got going. Though you will have to deal with the obligatory internet douchepoles, I'd imagine, you should stand to benefit from the site.
As for posting your stuff in cyberspace, I completely understand. I don't know how the Cult deals with issues like privacy and prior publication issues, but I'm sure if you sent a mod a PM they'd break it down for you. Definitely important concerns to have addressed before you get going.
Anyway. I'm gonna get out of the way and let someone who actually knows something in here. Hopefully, if I ever get it together and go premium, I'll see you in there.
Good luck.
the workshop is functional, but the format is still a bit fucked. it does, however, currently work. (please note, though, that when you write reviews and upp them, they will lose all format and probably be full of odd asterisks and slashes et cetera and a scroll of character glitches.)
as for retaining rights..
the cult does not own rights on your work; you own your own rights for the stories you upp here. though you should be mindful that some online zines and mags may feel that if a story is on a website then that story is already published and they may not buy it because they would consider it second rights. i dont think the same could be said of ellery queen or the missouri review as they are looking for the best work possible and probably understand that a workshop is a very normal and real step for writers and their pieces. what i mean is:
there are two stories i'm currently trying to pimp now to lit mags and, though i started them in earlier forms on this website over the years, i wont upp them here in their current DONE form for that reason, but i have no concerns with the earlier drafts being left around here. so..
so, yeah.. if youre currently shopping a story, i wouldnt put it up here or anywhere; i would concentrate on other work (as a writer, you always have other work). if i were new, i'd do what i did, which is concentrate on sketches and original stories and learn the techniques offered here by chuck's essays, particularly those first three (the ones that so powerfully and keenly opened my mind to writing as a possible future vocation)
....
i have a few more thoughts, but my woman walked in and gave me an ultimatum: take me to us pizza for a salad for lunch or take me to us pizza for a salad for lunch but either way right now.
be back later this afternoon
and welcome to the cult
and the shop
-kabol
As deeper breathing returned, he coddled a dream of images of his future family, of himself and his love and children and in it he smiled the smile of one who works hard and provides, the proud father. The pride of the father. He stopped his thoughts and pushed himself to hurry because of the pride of a father like Ol Jim, because there are some people in this world you just shouldn’t rile.
-A Daughter's Pride
a pint with lunch and then after skipping across the street for a spell and a whirl we have freshly returned from the home depot and now to my thoughts. and this is how it begins..
read the essays. all of them. make a month out of it; there is a lot of backlog, luckily. consider a few grammar books, particularly the strunk and white book [i]elements of style[/i]. also consider a few books on writing, like king's book on writing, and hemingway's. i recently finished a fantastic one titled [i]self-editing [color=blue]for[/color] fiction writers[/i] and was written by editors who focused on mistakes they often see in unsolicited manuscripts.
as for apprehensions..
that is very normal. i was always a bit worried. even got my ass kicked a few times. but the job is to get back up and try to use the advice, or see passed the flaws in the advice and go to the next review. there is no way that everyone is going to completely GET your work. in fact, that is going to be a low low minority. but really, the goal is to improve. if you bought a membership, you may as well put your nuts on the table as you write and upp the story for review. in the chuck workshop, we are open to unfinished stories, like a few scenes to try out a chuck technique--but make damn certain the piece is formatted and edited for spelling and grammar before you put it up; show professionalism so you can expect professionalism from reviewers. hell, this thread alone tells me youre serious about your workshop experience here.
have fun and be honest. dont write fluffy reviews. have thick skin and assume others have thick skin as well, because the only way reviews can be helpful is if theyre are one hundred percent brutally honest. dont attack people, and certainly dont be afraid to mention how something worked for you, but if something takes you out of the narrative, make certain to mention it. i promise to always be honest with you and i hope you can offer up like that too =)
if you have any more sepcific concerns, please feel free to hit this thread with them and i will answer to the best of my ability. or ignore the thread altogether. smile.
welcome to the workshop. it is a lot of work and will be very hard from time to time, but it is very worth it. if you are serious, it will prove worth it.
-kabol
As deeper breathing returned, he coddled a dream of images of his future family, of himself and his love and children and in it he smiled the smile of one who works hard and provides, the proud father. The pride of the father. He stopped his thoughts and pushed himself to hurry because of the pride of a father like Ol Jim, because there are some people in this world you just shouldn’t rile.
-A Daughter's Pride
I was poking around to see if the Workshop was still here and spotted this thread. I'm a bit confused, as I found a page that was called 'my desk' that had some of my submissions and their reviews from back in 2005, and a list of five or six stories (one appeared to be a duplicate) on the left that I could potentially download rtf files to critique.
But I found no searchable list, or even a way to see the stories submitted by those who had reviewed my submissions back then, though I suspect those individuals would find their own submissions (or some of them, I don't think I saw all of mine) on their 'my desk.'
I've been missing the workshops, getting into more of a writing mode of late. I've been inactive for a long time but I can put you at ease on a few points:
- The whole ecosystem setup (I'm assuming this is still true) really weeds out the lazy. Having to review five stories in order to submit one, reviews that have to be accepted as 'helpful' even if they're not flattering, is not something a kamikaze wannabe will do.
- If you truly desire flattery, only let your friends read your work; however, if you want to get an objective view, a relative stranger on the internet is perfect. Even if you decide they're wrong, they're likely being honest. (And they're probably not wrong.)
- Hundreds of strangers would not have read your work at any time I can recall. I'm guessing we had a few dozen active participants at any one time, and there was enough work being submitted back then that few could read and critique anywhere near all of the submissions. With fewer submissions, you'd probably get read by all the participants, but obviously it's not a horde.
- And in any case, the whole fear of having your work 'stolen' is probably at least partly an overestimation of your story's value. I don't mean that as in you personally, I mean that if what you had was that hot, your agent and editor would be your workshop.
I don't know how much of the old workshop is a casualty of the Drupal switch, but I know Vigorous Puppy is solid, and he's the workshop admin. I can see things being bogged down in code, but I can't see him administering a workshop that lacks integrity.
Hey, kabol, I've been wondering about this for a while: if a workshop member were to run into a publication situation where the thing being posted here stood in the way of the piece getting accepted, would there be any way for the author to remove it from the site? Or is this not done, presumably out of concern for the five-reviews-per rule?
Hey,
im flattered that you drank beer with your woman then came home to continue replying to my message and thanks to you and pocketfives for the warm reception and the encouraging push. I have been busy reading the essays and have read " elements of style" as well as thumbed some others. There is one in particular that I read parts of evertime I go to Borders, cant remeber the name though, something like Words with Bite. I guess my main concern is that people can download my work as a file onto their computer than do whatever they want with it. I dont know how to ensure that my work is protected because im not going to copywrite unfinished notes and manuscripts, aside from that I realize im okay with having my work critiqued, everyones gotta go through it, right?
Well, with that said, I will be uploading soon...
and for now
The day job calls, so off I go to the endless argument.
peace
brother rod. it's been a minute. yeah, the search function is still not yet very useable. half of my stories have still not been brought over from the original site. and most of my reviews are still not transfered either. as for review "ratings", we're going with something entirely new, i think, so for the time being and until all of the work is done, there are no major changes being activated; every feature and function has to individually be "created" as an independent "module"--lot of inventing of new things that are really old ideas that have to be reconstructed from the ground up. i dont think that any new parts are going to be activated until they as a whole are done enough, so no soft opening and no opening and the shit aint working again kid of thing. i've pretty much given in that this year is being used to get this entire new and newly invented format ready.
soundshift and pocket. a few things..
one: put your name on your submissions and format them before your submit them. if someone sometime in the future decides to steal you intellectual property (not at all likely and has never been a concern of mine), then the fact that it has been here since that time can be proof that it was yours first. though we did bring this up to chuck once during the q&a sessions:
chuck says.. if you are genuinely concerned, there is a legal way to go about protecting yourself without having to pay for a copyright seal (which runs, i think, $80):
take your story and put it in an envolope and mail it to yourself via the us postal service (presumably from a mail drop box or the post office) and when it comes in dont open it. store it in your safe or in the back of your desk. if you ever have to go and prove your property in court, allow the judge to open the envolope and the date and the stamped date will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was your property long before someone else published it.
if you feel uncomfortable about having a story upped here while you want to submit it somewhere online, and you feel concern about that story being available on this site, hit up vig via a pm and let him know you need that story removed. ive never done it, because my stories change so damned much from the version here and the finished version later that it isnt even the same story, or even the same title for that matter. one of the great things about this site is that you retain the first rights of any piece you submit here. so no worries there.
and soundshift sounds like a transformer's name =)
-kabol
As deeper breathing returned, he coddled a dream of images of his future family, of himself and his love and children and in it he smiled the smile of one who works hard and provides, the proud father. The pride of the father. He stopped his thoughts and pushed himself to hurry because of the pride of a father like Ol Jim, because there are some people in this world you just shouldn’t rile.
-A Daughter's Pride
brother rod. it's been a minute. yeah, the search function is still not yet very useable. half of my stories have still not been brought over from the original site. and most of my reviews are still not transfered either. as for review "ratings", we're going with something entirely new, i think, so for the time being and until all of the work is done, there are no major changes being activated; every feature and function has to individually be "created" as an independent "module"--lot of inventing of new things that are really old ideas that have to be reconstructed from the ground up. i dont think that any new parts are going to be activated until they as a whole are done enough, so no soft opening and no opening and the shit aint working again kid of thing. i've pretty much given in that this year is being used to get this entire new and newly invented format ready.
-kabol
Truly a day or two. What can I say? I got divorced and my writing time kind of got reallocated. And my focus shifted more than a little bit. When I say I'm being more writerly of late, I do not mean I'm spending hours every day on it. But I'm trying to at least write something every day: sketches, speedwriting exercises, and if I can't get it up for any of that, at least a blog post. The last option, while the only thing I've maintained anything like volume with, is not something I really think of as writing. It's the rough draft without any intention of rewrites; an unlocked diary available to anyone interested (mainly my personal friends).
I'm disappointed to hear you speak of getting the workshop features functional within the year. I've alienated myself from at least one mod by criticizing the switch to Drupal (whatever that is). IMHO, when we got to a month or so in and there was still nowhere near the functionality of the previous incarnation of the Cult, it was time to bring the old Cult back and go back to the drawing board. Work out the kinks over a year, fine, but don't work them out on a live audience.
I'm not sure why the stubborn commitment to something that might work 'even better' someday when there was something that already worked in place. But in any case, given that my writing time isn't what it was in, say, 2005, I guess i have less room to complain for lack of participation.
there's just no going back in time. the website and the workshop, it has to be worked on, not backtracked. if it was that easy it woulda been done easily. it's the harder trek that holds forward momentum.
i'm sorry; i didnt know you got a divorce. man, i'm fucking sorry. i had no idea. you have to take into consideration that you offered me some of the very best feedback i could not even have asked for. showed me my lazy writing, and as a novice that is something cathartic. i didnt deserve it and i'm grateful, brother rod. when i got up to my 200th review, i thought on names, names like ink and pmck and the good doc and i always had to put you in there. hopefully this workshop will spring forth at a time that we can both help some other newbs, because i think that will help us as well. reviewing is the other helpful half of improving. or so has worked for me thus far..
-kabol
As deeper breathing returned, he coddled a dream of images of his future family, of himself and his love and children and in it he smiled the smile of one who works hard and provides, the proud father. The pride of the father. He stopped his thoughts and pushed himself to hurry because of the pride of a father like Ol Jim, because there are some people in this world you just shouldn’t rile.
-A Daughter's Pride
there's just no going back in time. the website and the workshop, it has to be worked on, not backtracked. if it was that easy it woulda been done easily. it's the harder trek that holds forward momentum.
Kabol, man, you know I've got a lot of respect for you, but that's just a load. If you have an end result that might be almost as effective as the "inferior" previous one in a year and a half, especially on the internet, then you may as well write yourself off. More than a year on the internet is forever. There's really no excuse, and I do say this with all due respect for the kick-ass people running this here site, for that kind of lag before the site becomes as efficient as it once was. Forward momentum is one thing. When it drops the number of posts in GD by maybe seventy-five percent and he workshop entirely, the cost is just clearly too much. I really hope to see the Cult kicking tail and taking names soon, but based on the last six months, I wouldn't hold my breath. The only reason I hold out hope for the workshop bouncing back, and me maybe joining it (please excuse the relative assholishness of someone not currently in the workshop making this post) is the fact that we have so many talented and devoted writer/reviewers ready to kick the thing into high gear.
I know we don't really need another thread to devolve into why people are angry about the switch, and that's not my intention. I really dig the Cult, and I hope the workshop blossoms in Drupal. We should look forward, and encourage the new guys, but it kind of irritates me when people dismiss legitimate concerns and suggestions about the site.
Cheers, brother.
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