I want to start writing fiction - themes, moral of novel, etc

Hi new dude.

Just spend alot of time here and you'll soon know what to do.

Greetings, go out and do someone wrong.

Just start writing, anything! Building your skills and eventually you'll find something you feel strongly about and you'll know how to express your feelings about it.

Wow, you guys are swift posters

Okay, so basically, "just jump in, see what happens"?

Yeah, why not? Just start scrawling down ideas, funny stuff that happens during the day, carry a notebook around with you at all times. And just make sure you read A LOT, as much as you can, even stuff you think you won't like.

Hello there and welcome to the Cult.

Vendetta is correct. Write write write.

Morals and themes don't have to be huge. They don't always need to be life changing type things. They can be small and personal. How you treat your family for example.

Also, write short stories or just scenes. Do alot of fiddling around with how people interact with eachother. I bet once you get going you'll realize that you have plenty of "morals and lessons" that will naturally develop.

You are 17, there is no need to try to change the perception of the entire world. Go with what you know. You have several years of dealing with assholes and making tough decisions. Write about them.

Again. Welcome to the Cult.

find a theme or moral that you want to write about then go out and find as many novels with that same theme. Find out what works in them and what doesn't. read a couple philosophy or psychiatry books. Go to a park somewhere and just people-watch. and write! if you read an hour a day, write for an hour a day, if you read two hours, write for two. eventually you'll start building an understanding on how to express whatever moral you want to say. either that or you're just a shitty writer and no amount of practice will help. But it's fun to find out one way or the other.

Thanks for all the input, I'm definitely going to like it here.

I always have little ideas for themes, but it's hard to expand on them. I'm kind of in this "Sinclair" stage of my life, where I know I have these strong feelings, but I don't quite know what they are yet. Something genius is hiding in my head...

by the way, how do you make a signature? I don't see it in the User CP.

i think you gotta pay for the sigs

start by writing what you know. eventually, as you develop, you'll be able to write outside of yourself... i enjoy taking something mundane, maybe something you saw just a second of, and wondering it into an event of my own.
there are some great books on writing that may inspire you: anne lamott's Bird by Bird and Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones were both great for me to read.

and welcome!

Definitely keep a notebook with you at all times. Also, research. Lots and lots of research. If you find a subject that you or a character you are writing about is interested in or something they should know about due to their background, etc. look up everything you can about it. You are in the right place, welcome.

Yes, I think research is very important. It gives authority to the author and makes characters a lot more interesting. The same goes with people. For example, a friend showed me today how the symbol for slavery in ancient egypt or something is a snake with a spear through it - our symbol for money: $. Then we talked for an hour...apparently knowledge like that appeals to people.

A word of caution about research.

Characters only know so much. for example - A 15 year old young man isn't going to know about the ins and outs of marriage. (unless they live in Kentucky, no offense VP)

Be aware of what you allow your characters to know. Have them learn from others and learn from experience.

Have your characters knowledge be realistic. Like you said in your post, your friend knew something, told you, you talked about it and you both learned. I've read many stories in the workshop here where the author is trying to use what Chuck calls Head Authority and they over do it. They use all these "big" words and technical jargon that no one actually uses in real life. People simplify to get thier point across.

No one likes a know it all. and it doesnt ring true.

Also, reading facts is never fun. Bits of insider information are always delicious, but these can be as simple as, "John's father died a few years back, but we never mention it." Don't feel you have to find out about the intricate details of open-heart surgery to catch your reader. If you're going out of your way for it and you aren't understanding it, chances are your reader won't thank you for the effort.

Also, you don't need to worry about thinking about themes. You'll get out a paragraph or two, and wonder where to go, and that direction right there will most probably hint at a theme. Maybe your character's in a bar, he's had a drink, and what next? - He sees a woman, and maybe your story can be about loveless casual sex, or maybe about womanizing. Maybe it could be about women using sex, or even the thought of sex as a tool to get what they want from men. Themes usually aren't a problem for the few people I know that write.

Also, if you're 17, you've easily got ten years of hard experience to write about. Unless you've lived in some utopia, which obviously isn't the case because they wouldn't have the internet there.

[B]Edit[/B]: I do like to start my paragraphs with 'also', don't I?

Only take the advice of people who you have reason to believe. Look into their work before assuming that they know what they are talking about when commenting on yours. Just because someone is published doesn't mean their work deserves respect.

You are your biggest critic, if you show someone a piece of shit and they concur don't get pissy. You should have seen it coming.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. Sometimes they just don't "get it." Consider the fact that some people actually find Family Guy funny. I sure wouldn't want those people thinking I was funny, because that would make me a hack.

Hemingway shot himself in the head, his son died as a woman in an all female prison.

Making good friends is boring. Making good enemies teaches you something.

Hello Chris, and welcome to A Writer's Cult.

I would suggest that if you want to write fiction, then don't go for big meanings head-on. Fiction is about character. Essays and criticism are about ideas.

Sure, it isn't always that simple.

One of the interesting things that Chuck does is mix forms; he invigorates his fiction by adopting some of the framework of non-ficiton writing. Some of that probably comes from his journalism background. That's where you'll see tons of research getting evaporated and thickened into the condensed milk of musical facts, creating "head authority."

But doing that just right is a black belt skill. If you're just beginning your training, it's probably better to write an essay when you want an essay, and a research paper when you want a research paper. Oh, and write a story when you want a story. Start with a character or with two or more characters in an interesting situation. Follow them around and see what happens in your imagination. And take good notes. Your characters will tell you what they mean, eventually, maybe.

The big risk in starting with a Big Idea that you want to bring across, is you could end up with a preachy narrator, brittle characters, and a contrived plot. George Orwell, for one, did the "novel of ideas" extremely well. But many other philosophers, social critics and essayists just aren't that good at fiction. Their design to communicate a strong message spoils their storytelling ability.

Here's a little secret to what makes all the [b]philosophy[/b] in Chuck's novels go down so smoothly: even his most enlightened characters are collossal fuckups and dumbasses, especially those who take center stage.

Think about the narrator in Fight Club. He can't deal with his shitty corporate job, but instead of consciously and deliberately quitting, maybe becoming a freelance writer and organic gardener, he starts doing weird things in his sleep, like working second jobs on the bad side of town where he can splice porn into children's movies.

He can't deal with falling in love with a trashy, feckless woman, a woman he only meets because both are "tourists" soaking up all the human misery they can at other people's 12-step meetings. Since he can't deal with his feelings head-on, he generates an alter-ego who's the kind of guy who could have a relationship with a woman like that.

Frame it in a real-life setting and answer: does this behavior strike you as deeply enlightened, or completely schizophrenic? Come on, the dude [i]beats himself in the face[/i] and goes to work displaying the self-inflicted damage. Sure, he's all cool about it, all "zen, in everyone's hostile little face." But... are the people around him really that hostile, or just utterly shocked? The work is full of deep sarcasm and irony.

Or think about Denny, in Choke. Lovable and dumb, for serious dude, and not so full of all the best answers for everything.

It gets even darker, much darker, in the minds and lives of characters in books by Brett Easton Ellis, Denis Johnson, and others. Maybe this is the writing that reaches a certain kind of mind in a dark and cynical age. It isn't the only literature out there, by any means. And no, your writing does not have to be extremely dark to be good.

But I'm guessing...no, more than that... I'm willing to [b]bet[/b] that all that juicy feeling people get of "wow, this really means something" is more like an emergent property of the fiction, and not something built in by conscious design. It's built more out of failure and feedback, hurt feelings and years of (sometime hard) living, and countless redrafting of mediocre manuscripts, and throwing away the really piss poor stuff and starting over.

If you've got a "Fight Club" in you, Chris, you know, not literally, but the next great underground success, the next quietly devastating, hilarious, dystopian, post-modern American novel, the next genius work of dark humor, or whatever the hell it is, it won't likely be crystalized in your first big idea... or even your seventeenth. It probably won't emerge in your mind fully formed and just waiting for your fingers to hit the keys. You won't get it by reading Nietzsche or rolling your own smokes. And you'll be very lucky if it can possibly hit the page before you are 30. (Although yeah, Ellis broke into the biz very young.)

In the meatime, enjoy your life and learn from your mistakes. Experiment without being reckless. Challenge norms without being feckless or cruel. Take care of yourself and take care of your friends. Being a writer is a secondary art to being human. And yes, read all the good stuff and keep writing. Write for different audiences and different purposes, sometimes even just to entertain yourself. That's about all I've got.

Awesome advice guys. Thanks a lot.

I'm aware now that a bestseller isn't going to come in my first few years of writing. I plan on teaching, so I'll have lots of weeknights, weekends, holiday breaks and summers to write...and play in my band. Thats why I like teaching: steady schedule with tons of days off so it doesn't take over your life.

Hi and welcome from one newbie to another. My name's Kathy.

You've already gotten lots of good advice, so my suggestions will be brief and, likely, boring. But I've come to believe in them more and more over the years.

First off, though it's not a popular trend these days, I recommend taking writing classes, starting with the basics, then moving to the advanced. I know, I know ... yawn. But knowing the "rules" of writing gives you the wisdom for when to break them and how. One of the most stunningly accomplished writers I know -Elizabeth Arthur- said it best when she told our class: "Last year you learned the rules of writing. This year, you'll lean to break them."

Believe me, a writer can flounder for a lot of years and waste precious time by not learning the basics, insisting that "no one can teach me to write." I was one of 'em.

No need to worry about themes or philosophy. You don't find them, anyway. They find you. But doing as several have suggested in this thread about keeping a notebook under your arm, and your mind and eyes open, send signals those themes that you're ready to receive.

If you're not writing well, don't fret about it. You will another day.

Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't write.
Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't publish.
And, most importantly, write whether it makes you money or not. Ever.

Welcome to the writing family.

My English teacher taught writing in college and wrote a few books himself. That could be helpful

Also, once you run out of steam after an incredible first 20 pages, don't suddenly give up. Write utter shit if that's what it takes, but try to finish whatever it is you've started. It'll encourage you to rework it later and enhance it.

[QUOTE=xec8;919642]Also, once you run out of steam after an incredible first 20 pages, don't suddenly give up. Write utter shit if that's what it takes, but try to finish whatever it is you've started. It'll encourage you to rework it later and enhance it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that, too. :haha: Excellent advise, indeed. Last year I had the great fortune to be accepted into an intense workshop led by Dennis Lehane. He confirms what xec8 alludes to: it's the middle part that's hard, not the start or the finish. Everybody goes through it sooner or later, even power hitters like Palahniuk & Lehane
~Kathy

[QUOTE=Mad Daego;919426]Consider the fact that some people actually find Family Guy funny. I sure wouldn't want those people thinking I was funny, because that would make me a hack.[/QUOTE]

I don't know that I'd agree with this. Don't pander to a specific audience (or write away from them). Write the cleanest, sharpest, best version of the story you're trying to tell. When it works, it will find an audience. And DO give a piece of shit (albeit a third or fourth draft piece of shit) to people to read. Don't get angry, but listen to what they say. Ask for specifics! Don't ask them if they like it, ask for specifics. Did this scene work. Why do you think so-and-so did this on page four? Etc.

Also, one of my friends likes family guy and laughs at MadDaego's MySpace blogs. So, there you go.

I never understood this: people either love or hate Family Guy. Same goes with Dane Cook. I find both very funny, but others can't begin to imagine how people could possibly think that.

i never bothered with Family Guy because it just seemed like a sequel to the Simpsons and there's already, what, seventeen seasons of that now? and i think Dane Cook is going to end up being a much better comic actor than a stand up, just like David Cross is

You could put Dana Carvey in that category as well.

there's a ton that fit that mold

Additionally, don't say your going to write a novel at sixteen; or whatever age you are. Write down your impressions, of everything you can; experience as much as you can to have something to compare it to. When characters, stories, etc, come to mind; you'll have a shlew of shit to work with; to make it seem more real.

[QUOTE=monkeywright;919715]

Also, one of my friends likes family guy and laughs at MadDaego's MySpace blogs. So, there you go.[/QUOTE]

Nowadays you're in my top three culties.

[QUOTE=chimney scott;919972]Additionally, don't say your going to write a novel at sixteen; or whatever age you are.

I wrote a novel at sixteen.

I also wrote a novel at fourteen.

I blew up a mailbox when i was 16

went to colonial Williamsburg when i was 14

I was expelled from school when I was 13 for selling marijuana cigarettes.

Not to be a one-upper or anything. <~~~ actually, that's exactly what I was doing.

^^^ Doin' my part to drag down a great thread.

I got my first blowjob at fourteen!

[QUOTE=nathaniel parker;919974]I don't understand why the second statement would explain the first?[/QUOTE]

It doesn't really. I was advising him not to start out too big and get dissuaded because he can't finish it.

[QUOTE=xec8;919984]I got my first blowjob at fourteen![/QUOTE]

I guess you didn't have an uncle to tuck you in.

[QUOTE=rkdaley;920013]I guess you didn't have an uncle to tuck you in.[/QUOTE]
Correct. Although, interestingly, I do have a seedy uncle who might have done that if given the chance.

Jeez, I went out for the day and came back to 10 posts about what you guys did when you were 14 lol.