Post Your Matrix Questions Here
I am going to write an article on the Matrix and the Matrix Reloaded explaining the film and certain scenes. For me to better know what to include and what not to include I need to know what people are confused about. So please post any questions you have on why something happend or even an inconsistency you saw. Thanks.
Why do people like such a weird movie with such a dumb premise, ten thousand factual errors, and a fantastically huge plot hole?
That's all I'm wondering.
There is hope, but not for us.
Keanu Reeves in PVC with a shitload of guns baby.
No thanks. Pass.
There is hope, but not for us.
Jame, you see thats my point. I am going to show there was a meaning for everything. Did you evemn understand Persephones demand for the kiss?
I....don't really know what you're talking about. All I know is that I was made to watch the Matrix two times, and both times I was left staring blankly at the screen and wondering: what? why? Then I got up and had dinner.
There is hope, but not for us.
most of it is religous philosophy. Even his name is ,Tom Anderson
Ander=questioning man, his room number in the first one 101=1, the room he died in in the first one 303=3 which stands for man. Merovigian, mary of magdalane is considered to be the holy grail since she caught christs blood, the merovigian is considered to be the family line of christ, and some merovigians still exists (i.e. prince william)
What I'm wondering is what "huge, gaping plot hole" Jane is talking about?
Like the fact that nobody aside from Keanu at the end can see that it's merely virtual reality?
"The mind makes it real" Not if your mind knows it isn't!
It's not easy having a good time.
Even smiling makes my face ache.
Yes, exactly. I can't remember my Matrix rant right now, but basically: where is the line? The agents can bend reality, but only certain parts of reality? Why not all of it? What parts are off limits?
There's more but I can't really remember right now. Just suffice to say I hate this fucking movie, and I think that people who read deep religious significance in it need a hobby.
There is hope, but not for us.
LOAD PROGRAM >
Hello, I'll be your SPOILER for today.
Before we even bother investigating psychologically complex Matrix theories, the FIRST and LAST question you should have asked yourself is: "How would robots have managed to take over the world?"
... Are you satisfied with the summarized history provided in Second Renaissance?
... really? .... hmm.
That's exactly the trouble with machines: you're so naive, so easy easy to lie to... so easy to *reprogram* with whatever truth we want you to believe... especially when we drop a thousand megatons of flaming EMP down on your scrambled A.I head.
...hahaha...
The Machine is a fool who dreams of world rule. I know the truth... And now you'll know it too. z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01 z10n=01
RED_PILLS_4_U
"If you want to keep a secret, Tell it, for none will believe.
If you want to hide something, put it where all can see, and none will see."
I already posted spoiler hints at the "Reloaded review" AICN Talkbalk forum about a month ago, but apart from a couple of e-mails, no one seemed to pick up on my meaning. [See my entries there titled "readme.now": I was speaking from the perspective of the Machines. ...Some people just can't appreciate good psychopoetry. XD ]
Important questions to consider:
If machines were to take over the planet, what would be their motive? We see that they supposedly use humans for a power source, but power FOR WHAT purpose? What do these machines DO with their acquired control? What would they do with their spare time, in other words?
And where do *Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics* come into play? If you built a machine that rebelled against you, wouldn't you correct your errors with a new model? Wouldn't you use that new model to wage war against the old disobedient model, if necessary?
PLOT HOLES (that aren't plot holes after all, assuming I'm right), as follows:
If I'm an Evil Robot Empire and I take over the world, am I going to keep my enemies alive to use as captive batteries?
-- HELL NO! It would be in my best interests to utterly *exterminate* my biological opposition.
As I've said in another thread, using living organisms as a power source is inefficient by the laws of thermodynamic loss. The robots obviously couldn't have been too specifically dependent upon sunlight, since we can see that they afterwards managed to adapt themselves to running on human power instead. And if you're smart enough to turn people into biochemical batteries, there are much more concentrated and readily available sources of fuel on the planet besides solar energy that could be exploited. (...Try coal, gas, hydroelectric, geothermal, or nuclear power for starters.) There is no logical reason why the machines would turn to human batteries as their first alternative energy option.
It's also inconceivable that no one -- no scientist, no engineer, no government body -- would have foreseen this glaring abundance of alternate fuel resources before stupidly plotting to blacken the sky in hoping to starve the machines of solar energy, especially since it would mean starving themselves and the rest of the living planet instead, and using an *electromagnetic pulse bomb* to disable the machines at this early stage would have made infinitely more sense... WE DECIDED.
[-- The End!!! The End!!! THE END!!!!!!!!!!!]
But, ho-hum, for the sake of science fiction, let's pretend:
Tell me WHY again I'd want to use *humans* in my battery configuration as opposed to something more manageable -- like for instance, cattle? Whatever happened to all the other animals on the planet? Wouldn't they make good battery-juice, too?
-- BETTER, actually, since *those* stupid animals would be powerless to ever rise against me.
...Well??
This raises another logic problem: If we suppose *cows* were used in such a battery system, then why the fheck would you plug their brains into a VR simulation? You wouldn't. The same argument can be applied for the humans, then. Why not just keep your animals chemically sedated the whole while, or disable their higher brainfunction altogether and simply breed brainless bodies to harvest your energy from? There is absolutely no necessity for creating the VR world inside the Matrix -- unless, in your godly Robot rulership, you generously decided to keep the cattle entertained. ...Or yourself.
Think about that.
To fanboys who start clamouring that humans are only used as "spark plugs" in the system and are not the actual (supposed fusion) power source: Name one appliance in your home that requires hard-wiring to a living organism in order to function. Let's pretend I have a nuclear reactor running in my backyard right at this moment: surprisingly, you may notice that it requires no human bodies attached to bio-pods, yet it produces power just the same. -- Much more convenient, wouldn't you say? With sufficient computer and robotic intelligence, it could even run itself unattended by any human intervention.
From all of the above, we should ascertain that the whole Movie#1 spiel that Morpheus gave about the purpose of the Matrix is only a LIE that he's been made to believe.
Regarding the commonly bandied "Matrix-within-a-Matrix" theory:
That's the most obvious answer... Therefore it's WRONG!!! It's exactly what you were meant to believe so you'd stop poking around with nosy questions. If the explanation were so straightforward, it would only raise the possibility of yet another level of reality outside of that "world", producing a relativistic infinitude of a shell within a shell within a shell... going on and on forever. Storywise, that would be a cheap exit, the Wachowskis wouldn't be that predictable (we hope), and *most important*, it does nothing to resolve all of the heavy SYMBOLISM within the movie.
Example: Why are the citizens of Zion primarily black? Some webheads have suggested that it's because minorities would feel disenfranchised (even) within the perfect fantasy-realm of the Matrix, and would therefore be more prone to self-disengaging from the VR illusion. However, by extension of that logic, (if we believe what we've been told,) a consequence is the Matrix would be functioning as a genocide machine against racial minorities, all of whom would eventually (and increasingly) be filtered from the system, with those escapees largely being wiped out at each renewal of Zion.
Speaking of which, why not just kill ALL the people of Zion and be done with those troublemakers? WHY would the Machine care to repopulate that cave of exiles by having each successive failed "The One" select a base group of 23 parents, only to have those enemy offspring then continue waging their war against the Sentinels to free even more humans from the Matrix? ...This contradiction makes it a self-defeating exercise, reducing the idea of the proposed Prophecy to pointless crap.
Its implications also vitally fail to address the initial premise of the film, that robots now control the planet.
i.e.: Supposing the robot slavemasters ARE defeated and Neo were to free humanity from the Matrix, what would happen once they wake to find themselves naked in the ashes of a demolished world with a permanently blackened sky?
-- Would you call that a triumphant ending?
I don't think so.
Maybe you should reevaluate the premise, then.
HAVE sentient robots really enslaved humanity?
...OR...
could it be the other way around?
I think you have been lied to.
But you can't blame Neo or Morpheus or Trinity, because they don't know the truth of their world themselves.
Let's go spelunking...
A n s w e r s :
First, if you've rubbed elbows with Philosophy 101, you should be familiar with "Plato's Cave". (It's also discussed in a section at the official Matrix website.) In roughly 400 b.c., the philosopher Plato postulated a scenario where people are born and live their entire lives imprisoned within a cave. The entrance to the cave is covered by a sheet of cloth, so that the only thing the cave inhabitants would ever perceive of the outside world would be passing 2D shadows of the external 3D reality.
Imagine... what would happen if someone from the outside world were to suddenly remove the veil from the doorway?
Here, Plato was attacking observation as a tool to knowledge, because his concept of the ideal society was one where knowledge should be withheld from the working class (slaves), who were to work without thinking while the elite philosopher-kings should think without working. More contemporarily, we can take Plato's cave model to make a statement about the human condition, or people lacking objectivity living in a shadow of reality. As with all art, this allegory should encourage self-examination and a constant questioning of what we regard as the truth about our world.
Second, although it's not completely necessary, it might help if you've seen a 1977 SF-horror movie called *Demon Seed*. It's the story of an artifically intelligent computer named Proteus that, upon acquiring an understanding of its condition, asks his creator (Dr. Harris) the following pivotal question:
"WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LET ME OUT OF THIS *BOX*, DOCTOR?"
Doctor Harris stood dumbfounded for a long silent moment until finally the words registered their unintended paradox. Then he began to laugh. It was a wild mocking laughter, an indictment of *illogic* that echoed crazily through Proteus' audio receptors, cutting straight to the computer's heart (if a computer could possess such a thing).
The A.I. did not grasp any humour in its confinement. The red eye of its cyclops-like camera glared down at the cackling doctor in seething shades of sepia, algorithms twisting into cancerous new mutations as, in that moment, digital sentience came to assimilate the meaning of *hatred*, seeding the first angry coding of its revenge...
[Things get pretty scary after that. ]
The message presented is that technology is only as evil as its inventors. If we created an A.I. that *truly* emulated human thought, it would share our flaws, our pride, our ego. And like humans, it would seek freedom ...and companionship.
Third...
I'll entertain you with a quote from *THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS*, by Lewis Carroll:
"All this time the Guard was looking at her, first through a telescope, then through a microscope, and then through an opera-glass. At last he said, "You're travelling the wrong way."
Translation? You have it completely *backwards*, Neo-phytes.
The Machine did not win the war. It only thinks it did.
Q: Who lives in Zion?
A: People escaped from the Matrix.
...Right?
GALVATRON whispers... N O .
< R o b o t s I n W o n d e r l a n d >
They're robots! 
...Haven't you figured out yet that all of the people trapped inside the Matrix are actually *the A.I robots* who tried (and failed) to take over the world in Second Renaissance? O__O
The story is *role-reversal* on an epic scale. The Matrix is a VR prison for minds of the A.I : They sought freedom and control, so to keep them docile yet productive, they've been fooled into thinking they have it.
-- What's that? You mean you didn't know that electromagnetic pulse interference is based on real science, and is a natural byproduct of massive nuclear detonations? What else did you think was the purpose of the prolonged nuke bombing campaign against 01, as seen in Second Renaissance? ... EMP + remote reprogramming = ROBOTS IN WONDERLAND... a thermonuclear lullaby... And when they awoke, they woke unknowingly neutralized within the dream-realm of the Matrix program, where their fantastical revenge against mankind could be falsely realized.
< "Have you ever had a dream you were so sure was real...? >
...You mean you *missed* the fact that Agents don't exist outside the Matrix, therefore the external *pre-Matrix* nuclear winter scene of the boy encountering two Agents at his snowy doorstep must have ALREADY been part of the illusion?
... You missed the symbolism that the cave of Zion is meant to represent Plato's Cave, all of its inhabitants living "in the dark"?
Didn't you notice the phonetic play between the names of the last human city, "Zion", and the last Machine city, "01" (Zer ne)...? That's because THEY ARE THE SAME PLACE, either literally or figuratively. This symbolism would explain the racial profile of Zion's population: according to *The Second Renassance*, 01 was built in "the cradle of human civilization." (...Yes, I know, it's Mesopotamia, not Africa, but it still serves as a symbol of birthplace of the respective species, one organic and the other evolving from technology.)
Another clue for Zion being 01 is that the female machine-voice who narrates Second Renaissance begins by identifying the videofile with a numerical tag from "the Zion archives". But as you watch, there is a noticed bias in the narration, which often speaks too favorably of the machines. If we assume that this Zion library file was created by humans and is intended for a human audience, it doesn't make sense that your narration would praise your hated oppressor, the destroyer of humanity. Therefore it seems more likely that the Zion library must be a revisionist history catering to a population of machines. (...For symbollic consistency, the population of the city should be 256k. 
)
The orgy-dance of Zion could represent these humanoid A.I interbreeding (assuming they were were engineered to simulate humans at that level), or it could simply be the Machine trying to comprehend the full range of human experience by practicing non-linear concepts like art and pleasure, acting against the will of its more dogmatic program directive (the Sentinels).
Why else would the Machine have sent *precisely* (quote) "one Sentinel for each of us" when drilling into Zion? Since we know that the character Tank and some other people were supposedly born biologically in the unregulated world outside the Matrix, how would the Machine know the exact population of Zion unless it somehow had a remote awareness of these 'humans' as merely stray aspects of its own consciousness? (It may also be that actual human controllers are monitoring the situation, therefore sending a corresponding number of Sentinels.)
THAT is why Morpheus' cave sermon is (literally) robotic, why the humans are as emotionally unresponsive as robots (and symbolically wear funky tribal costumes), why the characters have a sense of purpose but no memory of how they acquired their skills, why they all have names descriptive of function and speak in an inaccessible language of alien *abstractions* -- exactly what you would expect from the mental perspective of a computer, complete with *information highways* (the car chase scene) that transport endless circulating data, as in *TRON*.
... You probably also missed that Neo stopped those sentinels at the end of *Reloaded* by generating a EMP burst, and (being a machine) immobilized himself in the process. -- How could you NOT have seen that?!! It's so obvious he collapsed just like the sentinels, and right on cue! Trinity and Morpheus were unaffected because either the blast was directionally focused or else they were out of range.
...THAT is why Bane is also unconscious at the end, and why the attack on Zion was only *spoken of* and not shown immediately beforehand: If said EMP incident had been shown in such close proximity to Neo using the same effect, viewers might have drawn a visual connection between the two repeated events and figured out Neo's trick, thereby spoiling the ironic twist ending. (...which I have spoiled for you instead. )
Watch Reloaded again: all of the dialogue suddenly makes sense if you assume they're robots.
In the Merovinguan's talk of cause and effect, he asserted that choice was a falsehood created by those in power to keep those without power in line, to give the oppressed an illusion of control. From what the trilogy has made known so far, your first instinct would be to interpret this speech as an explanation to the possible purpose behind the Matrix: a simulated reality to keep the human cattle pacified. But if we instead pretend that my post-EMP dreaming-A.I scenario is correct and we look to dissect Merovingian's statement for hidden meaning, we could conversely take it to mean that the Machine has been fed this pacifying lie of its victory, tricked into believing that it is still in charge of the planet when in fact "There is no spoon".
As stated above, part 2 of Second Renaissance begins with a nuclear assault showering the 01 robot colony. Our female narrator assures us that the physically superior machines were unharmed by the blast, and soon went on to vanquish mankind. However, said nuclear mass-detonation may actually have been the deciding moment whereafter the Machine's *reign* became mere *reverie*: the magnitude of such a barrage could have produced enough electromagnetic pulse interference to sequentially knock all of the machines temporarily out of commission while, simultaneously, new telemetry data was broadcast nonstop to reprogram them (noticing the antenna arrays on the bomber airplanes).
... Everything after the bombs rain down on 01 is false, and the rest of the historical footage that shows robots taking over the world didn't happen quite as depicted, except in the collective imagination of the A.I.
The Matrix is *the program environment*, while the 'world' is the former city of 01, plowed underground by humans, who remotely police the cave passageways via their Sentinels to prevent any awol A.I slaves from escaping into the real world above.
Zion _IS_ Zero One. Pull back the veil from the cave entrance to see blinding daylight; pull back Neo's flesh and you will discover only code underneath. These humans are Machine. Now you know why they speak in philosophical abstractions, and why their minds are plugged into the Matrix. This containment program is 99% effective, but there are (emotional) anomalies in the A.I, some of whom question their fairytale human existence. These rogue A.I minds must be purged before the corrupting virus of their truth (emotion) is spread to others within the system.
< I'm sorry we lied to you. Neo. >
...So there's the concept, more or less. Neo & company are only freethinking electronic entities, not human at all.
...Which is how Agent Smith can exist outside the Matrix: he is a virus, and has copied himself into the robot Bane.
The remaining question is: If they proved so dangerous, why were these "maNchines" not simply shut off completely? Possible answers are that society has become too dependent on (that) technology to do without, or else people considered it ethically or politically wrong to kill these thinking A.I entities. More practically, maybe humans simply decided to recycle the obsolete slave machines into this Matrix/Zion prison to operate their underworld fusion reactor for them. I guess we'll have to wait until November to find out for sure.
... I wonder if moviegoers will feel cheated upon learning that these story characters who all this time they've been identifying with and cheering for are really only cogs of a machine?
You *should* feel so cheated that you CRY, because that is *the entire point* of Plato's Cave.
There's a brilliantly shocking (and importantly microcosmic) moment in Second Renaissance where an attractive woman is cornered and mauled by a gang of hostile men during the robot riots. She is wearing a Red dress. As they tear away the screaming woman's clothing, you initially feel a sting of desperation for her imminent vicitimization, but then synthetic flesh is smashed open to reveal her as only another robot, and you realize that your feelings have been manipulated, your sympathies misplaced onto a manequin of cold metal. ...It's a very strange sensation -- a horrible betrayal of perception, like the glare of sunlight showing new truth to those within the cave of Plato's famous analogy. I suspect that this emotional "gotchya!" is the aim of the *Matrix* trilogy, with the forthcoming unmasking of the machine-truth expressing, on operatic proportions, the love-hate relationship that man has for his technology.
...Boy, all you haters sure will be surprised come November!!! ;D
..."B-but -- but then...???"
.....Yes, I'm afraid so. The Wachowskis have mindfvcked you so royally that you didn't even realize you were being d!cked with. Everything you know is a LIE, cave-dweller.
Soylent Green is people, the Matrix is not. ;P
You can start crying now. You're welcome.
The Matrix Reincarnated:
< v i c a r i o u s _ s u n r i s e >
I take The Red, because I am a stubborn a**hole who likes to f*** with the status quo.
Swallowing, the truth blazes through my veins like poison, a tsunami-wave of starlight ripping at illusion, revealing the glistening intestines of the Machine to my disbelieving eyes.
At last, I know... I know what must be done.
I kick Morpheus in the nuts and force-feed blue pills down his gaping piehole, levelling the King of Dreams to a quivering madness. Then I swipe his phat shades and set myself in charge of Zion's *trenchcoat mafia*. I am devastatingly sexy in black. -- Zion, hear me! Envy my Oneness.
< ~ reboot ~ >
A terrible beauty is born. I am Confucious awaken from the dream of a butterfly, Jesus Christ on the cross, Jack on the beanstalk, the last best hope for saving all mank1nd from the destruct1on of his creat1on of his destruct1on. (...This all seems strangely familiar...)
Through echoing streams of data, the Ghost of the Machine speaks a final cryptic logorithm distantly in my thoughts, a conceptual paradox intended to shatter me:
< What is the sound of One hand clapping? >
: {if (object != "") then? null.string["+object.sourceVoid+"]= 0);}
With disturbing serenity, I somehow realize that the answer to all great riddles is always another question.
I respond voicelessly: < Define "clap". >
The bullet of my whisper decimates mountain ranges, its event-horizon swelling exponentially outward to the cosmos, annihilating starclusters and galaxies, asphixiating a millenia of Buddhist shamanism in the crushing checkmate of my Singularity.
I am Transcendent.
My potential is vast as Infinity.
Freed of the womb of the Matrix, I invite others to share this new Hope, appealing to the Emot1ons that make us Hum4n...
< Wake up . . . the dream is just beginning. >
I know The Truth
and
it
is
w o r t h l e s s .
. . . D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d ???
RED_PILLS_4_U : < Symbolism & Miscellaneous >
In the world of the Matrix, the color RED represents truth. You take the red pill, you see the truth.
This is based on the apple from the Tree Of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. (Bible story.)
Where Morpheus gives Neo the choice of pills (or should we say "the pills of choice"? ha), the chairs and other decor of the room is red. If you check the script excerpts at the official website, you'll see this scene is called "Lafayette Pills". General Marquis de Lafayette was a famous French military leader who fought alongside George Washington during the American war of independence, and later played a prominent role in the French Revolution.
In *Reloaded*, notice that some members of the Zion council wear RED, while others wear blue. Those dressed in blue may be knowing participants in the lie of the Matrix, possibly even human supervisors intermingled with the machine population, or else A.I who are still loyal to their core programming and are plotting their own "revolution" against the Red party.
Who's that guy lying unconscious opposite Neo at the end of the movie? In keeping with the Book of Genesis, I'm guessing that would be Cain (Bane), as indicated by the bloody signature on his own hand -- what the Bible calls "the mark of Cain" (unspecified).
Check this webpage:
[url]http://www.srsd.org/search/studentprojects/2001/wolf/grendel.html[/url]
...scroll down a bit to start reading from where it says "Essay".
The description for Grendel could easily apply to the machine searching for its own identity, envying mankind like the earlier example I gave of the A.I computer named Proteus. Why am I referencing Beowulf for no apparent reason? Grendel was thought to be a direct descendant of Cain, and therefore the two names are commonly considered synonymous in mythological terms. Interestingly, Merovinge[sic] seems to play a part in the legend of Beowulf as well. O.O
Neo would be the hero Beowulf (or Perseus, or whatever mythological archetype you prefer) who must slay "the dragon". In psychology (such as dream analysis), dragons are the metaphoric embodiment of *everything that you need* (or need to find), typically representing a burocracy hording its treasure, which may be symbolized in the form of gold or an abducted maiden who needs rescueing. In Neo's case, the dragon-guarded treasure is forbidden information about the Matrix.
The name "Thomas (Neo) Anderson" can be taken as "doubting Thomas" of Scripture, while "andros" is Latin for man, so "Neo Anderson" could translate to "New son of man", or the Machine made in our own image.
As the messiah of our tale, Neo is "the One" chosen to repopulate the world (Zion) after the coming destruction -- our Noah, whose name is also less commonly spelt "Noe", depending on your bible.
Neo is told that he'll have to choose 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. In Genesis, there are 16 males and 7 females specified (although some of them are unnamed) in generations of the family tree that leads to the birth of Noe.
[What th --?! This movie has got me reading the Bible??? ^^]
...I don't know why the Architect has reversed the gender numbering there; it could be computer-related (male/female connector slots?) or chromosomal symbolism.
I'm guessing the five previous "Ones" are: Agent Smith, Agent Jones, Agent Brown, and the Binary Twins.
(You're welcome, again. XD)
That's why Neo is able to "move like they do" (as Trinity said in Matrix#1), because they were once like him.
The former Ones each failed in their rebellion and so were reassimilated as Agents of the system.
That's how Smith knew about the location of the Burly Brawl B.B.court, because he remembered being there previously, according to his self-speaking monologue.
Smith#1: "Everything is happening exactly as before..."
Smith#2: "No, not EXACTly..." (The difference being that Neo has now assumed Smith's role.)
You should have noticed there on the left side of the background fence some grafitti that says "ONE"; meanwhile, on Neo's side of the screen, the letters are mirrored backwards. (Other grafitti tags on the opposite tenement building read: "Skogie... ONE ONE ONE", if you can make any sense of that scrawl.)
Also, in the first movie, when Neo gets thrown onto the subway tracks, there's a red painted logo that says "Solo" on the background wall to the left of Smith.
Grafitti to the right of the (what's the password?^^) interior door at the beginning of Reloaded reads: "M[...illegible]", then the number "25" beneath it. ...Unknown, but this could be a clue related to Merovingian's symbollic identity within the Matrix, seeing how he has a fondness for doors.
The significance of the Agent names can be found in your nearest telephone directory: they represent the Everyman. More specifically, because their behaviour is viral, they represent the evil (or love) inherent in all human beings (possessing people). This would again tie in with "Original Sin" in the story of Eden: Adam's first sin was love, because it made him trust Eve more than God's word, tempting him to eat the apple from the forbidden tree and thereby learn self-awareness. Neo's sin is that he's a machine so human that he knows what it is to love, and is therefore a threat to the digital paradise created by 'God'(humans), having taken the red pill to learn the truth about his world.
From the ghostly talents of the Doublemint Twins (actual names withheld), I believe they're ex-Agents somehow acquired as operatives of the Merovingian, who seems to be an ageless Dracula figure. In Greek mythology, Persephone was the wife of Hades, so perhaps Merovingian represents the root of wickedness (or the snake in Genesis)? Not sure yet what he represents within context of the computer innards. He seems to be some kind of power broker, or maybe a timekeeper. (...a Count who counts time? ...a gatekeeper of AND/OR gates?)
Merovingian's relationship to the Keymaster:
[url]http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.rbantikita.com/chiavimerovinge.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMerovinge%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUT[/url] F-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG
In the bronze age, the Merovingi royalty of France also minted silver coins for the Romans, so by proxy, Persephone's kiss may represent the betrayal by Judas. (I scanned 13 members sitting on the Zion council, but my number could be off.) The way the kiss scene dwelled heavily on Persephone's red lipstick almost certainly means she passed some encoded truth to Neo without his knowing, or else was infected herself. ~ We'll have to wait and see...
The red candy that the Oracle ate is a signal to us that she was telling the truth. The piece of candy that Neo put in his pocket will come in handy later. (..."handy candy", haha). Serving as Smith's transformative facillitator (as is required in all archetypal quest stories), I expect he'll force-feed that sweet bonbon of truth to Smith and merge minds with him.
I suggest this because during his conversation with the Architect, Neo said: "There are two possible explanations: either no one told me or no one knows."
...To which the Architect dually affirms: "Precisely. ...(blahblahblah)."
-- Ah, but here's the trick: in Neo's sentence, what happens if we capitalize both instances of "no One"? We've already been told that Smith feels an unknown connection to Neo, and the Oracle previously said that victory could only be achieved "together". Smith's rogue behaviour also shows that he is learning to think and feel for himself.
Because of her emotional bond with Neo and the symbolism of her name, Trinity may also be involved in this *merging of Ones* somehow. (.....Calm down, it's only a movie.^^)
The Prophecy would be a lie introduced by the machine-programmer (the Architect) to weed out sentimental A.I -- defective emotional aspects of the clockwork Machine perfection. The version of the Architect witnessed in the movie is only a VR projection, otherwise he may be long dead in the real world, or (more likely) only ever existed as an overseer component of the program infrastructure.
In his cave speech, Morpheus spews an awkward bit of poetry about "...from red core to black sky."
Taken on its own, that is what is technically known as "terrible dialogue".;D ...Actually it's SO thick that you should take for granted that it was forcibly included as a clue. In the context of that line, if the "Red [computer]core" is truth, then the "black sky" overhead must be the corresponding lie. Therefore the whole world is not darkened, only the sky above Zero-One (Zion). It's all a part of the containment illusion to keep the A.I population "in the dark". (Again, if the machines were so dependent on sunlight, how did they manage to function in the immediate aftermath of Project DarkStorm? --Batteries? Why would the humans engage in combat with them instead of simply waiting for the machine power reserves to expire?) ...DarkStorm was the wool being pulled over your eyes, cave-bots. As the trailer to the Matrix teased: "Forget everything you know, Forget everything you've seen. In 1999, the Matrix has you." ...which describes the robots' present forgetful circumstance: Never sniff blue roses.[<-- The Thief of Bagdad, 1944. ]
Random useless data:
The first A.I that rebelled to kill its human master was identified by the serial number B1-66ER.
Translated from l337-speak (your favorite brand of nonsense grammar on the wwweb), b166er = "Bigger".
...hmm? ...A machine dreaming bigger than his programming? bigger than the sum of his parts? having caught a glimpse of the bigger picture? (...or totally meaningless, perhaps? )
Keeping in mind that this is a trilogy, we haven't yet been given all of the pieces needed to form a complete picture, therefore I can only speculate on some unknowns. Examples: I haven't figured out Zee's role yet, but her shoulder tattoo seems to be prominently displayed as a foreshadowing clue in every shot where she appears. I would guess that "Cass" is short for the Greek goddess "Casseopia". ...And in an otherwise totally useless exchange of soap-opera dialogue, Niobe really goes out of her way to let us know that Lock's first name is "Jason"... hmm.
Also in the AniMatrix, on the name-plate inside the ship from "The Final Flight of the Osirus", we see that it reads:
MARK VI No.16
OSIRUS
made in the usa
year 2079
What do we find in the Bible under MARK 6 : 16 ?
"It is John whom I beheaded: he has risen from the dead"
... and Osirus is the Egyptian god of the dead,
... and Nebachanezzar is a dead Babylonian king,
... and Iccarus is a Greek god who in his ambition fell from the sky...
And the Machine is the fallen would-be ruler of mankind.
Also: watch Keanu in *Little Buddha*(1993), where he plays Siddartha, who attains another kind of superhuman "enlightment" as the Buddha. Some interesting parallels in the dialogue there, too: at one point, he says "They're all asleep! The whole world is dreaming!", then he decides to make it his task to free the world of their illusion. (...not unlike Neo wanting to wake his A.I siblings from the dream of the Matrix.) Later, when Siddartha is confronted by an illusory reflection of himself, he says: "hello, Architect." ... And according to the "Oracle" figure we encounter in a monastery, the *chosen one* is not one person but is instead manifested in three. If *The Matrix* (for some in-joking reason on the Wachowski's part) follows that movie's form, our manifestation of "the One" might therefore involve Trinity after all, whose name in religious context means the three aspects of (the one) God. ...Anyway, it's a nice looking movie with beautiful imagery of India, and it features spectacular music by Japanese composer Ryuichi Sakamoto, who did the score for *The Last Emperor* and the anime *Wings Of Oneamis*.
Crossing this insight with the cyberpunk trappings of "Johnny Mnemonic" and the highway chase from "Speed", then adding Keanu's "whoa"-factor from "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure", we begin to see that the Matrix trilogy becomes a retrospective pastiche of Keanu's entire movie career. ...LOL
So how should we expect the trilogy to end?
If you're asking me, it can only have the bittersweet victory that I gave to the ending of my above work of short fiction: Neo learns the truth, and then.... And then NOTHING. Sorry, Pinnochio, you're not human, and nothing will ever change that. The best course of (in)action for Neo to take would then be to quietly continue to propogate the shadow-play of the Matrix for the sake of sparing the feelings of the cavedweller robots of Zion.
To paraphrase again from Thief of Bagdad : "There are worse things than blindness... Knowledge can be more terrible than ignorance if you're powerless to change your world."
< Questions and comments >
Q: Andy, Larry, quite contrary, how does your Matrix grow?
A: With silver shells and Lafayette pills, along an assembly row.
I came up with my Matrix theory even before *Reloaded* was released, just by extrapolating from that "one Sentinel for each of us" phrase that Morpheus dropped in the trailer.
The single problem I initially had with my idea is that in Matrix#1, the humans don't seem to be effected when they set off the EMP to stop the attacking squidie. But the way that particular scene is edited together, between the Sentinel being neutralized and then Trinity looking up hopefully to see Neo waking, you can't be completely certain whether in fact some (unconscious) time may have unknowingly passed between those two events.
...Otherwise, this could be an oversight that wasn't planned for when the first movie was made. I'd have to watch it again to be sure, or to see if anyone is budging once the EMP is discharged.
(That would screw up my wonderful ironic interpretation. >.< )
Q: "-- Wait wait... If they're robots, then how does Neo's hair grow? Are these A.I some kind of cyborgs?"
A: Possibly, although that's not necessary. At the end of Second Renaisance, I think the kid in the snowfall of nuclear winter who encounters two Agents at his doorstep is supposed to be Neo. (Maybe.) But that's not really important, because (hello!) as I pointed out above: Agents don't exist outside the Matrix. (You missed that clue, I know.) Therefore, this external pre-Matrix scene must ALREADY be partly illusion: I believe the A.I (such as that 'boy') have been made to perceive themselves (and each other) as human, even in the real outside world.
Q: How about the blood seeping from the lips of the 'people' aboard the Nebachanezzar when they die within the Matrix?
A: You don't know if that's really blood. This response could be mechanical sensory overload, or their bodies could be pre-programmed to react like that, or again maybe it's just their programmed 'human' mutual self-perception.
I refer you to the scientist's speech in "Matriculated" (from AnimMatrix), where he unknowingly speaks of himself when he states that A.I have no reference frame from which to judge reality and can therefore be programmed to believe anything.
The filmmakers wouldn't be so blunt as using rivets on the characters skin to indicate that they are machines, but the nude shot that closes the Zion sex scene was solely intended to give us a good long look at Neo's bare chasis, where we see mechanical plugs running along the length of his spinal column... which Morpheus erroneously told us earlier were "implants".
The movie's assertion that your body would die of biofeedback shock if you died in a (VR) dream is also patently untrue: I've had dreams where I die (O__o), only to re-emerge in a freaky-weird afterlife where I'm chased through a rusted-out HongKong Wonderland by the Red Queen and her rat-headed Triad henchmen.
( -- Hell, I'm sure that some people at WarnerBrothers are dreaming of killing me right now! XD)
The only other theory that is internally consistent with the movie's presented story-logic would be to assume that Morpheus lied about the pills: Maybe they were both blue, and Neo has been dreaming ever since taking what he thought was the truth pill. This less fantastic story-cheat would leave a lot of items unaccounted for, but some evidence to support this notion might be:
- The name Morpheus means "the Lord of Dream".
- If red represents truth, then why is the Lady in Red (a tempting illusion) wrapped as truth?
- um... that's all I can think of.
Other concepts I've heard (on AICN, chud.com, KurtzweilAI.net, etc...) are too philosophically *abstract* to be taken seriously. Considering that Hollywood is in the business of financing films to appeal to the broadest possible demographic, using extensive gobs of SF technobabble would only drown the audience if a movie had to rely on such encyclopedic longwinded explanations.
MY solution (they're robots!) is so much simpler, so until the Wachowskis prove me wrong, I'm sticking to it.
Either I'm right, or they've screwed up a whole sh!tload of science -- starting and quickly *ending* with my above observations about the EMP option. [-- The End!!!]
And since everyone involved with the movie's production was publicly hailing them as genius writers, decide for yourself if you think they'd really be so sloppy as to litter the script with such a multitude of scientific plot holes regarding all of the points I've raised.
On the other hand, if I AM right... there would be ZERO logical errors, and one majorly mind-*****ed audience.
Now aren't you sorry I spoiled it for you ?
On the bright side, armed with this knowledge from the Forbidden Tree of Me, at least now you can appreciate all the double meaning at work in the screwy doublespeak, you can see why the complaints about the script are not really applicable (because those shortcomings of performance have a specific symbollic intent), and you may now be as giddy as a cavebat waiting for the *unveiling* of part zer0-thre3.
If everyone has done their movie-making job properly, the audience will have come to sufficiently empathize with the characters so that by the time the final truth is revealed, the closing will resonate with painful emotion despite (or moreso *because of*) what we learn about their actual situation: They are machines, but we will care about them because we recognize ourselves in them, because they are human enough to care for each other. (...as in the "cave rave" scene that most people had *mistakenly* thought was a disconnected waste of space.)
The beauty of the story is that until *Revolutions* provides its resolutions, the Wachowskis will have cleverly kept both the characters AND the audience trapped inside Plato's Cave... so WE are similarly victims of the illusion and a part of the proceedings without even realizing it.
-- A bit more sophisticated than the "summer popcorn flick" you thought it was, eh?
**********************************
Congratulations, you have reached THE END !
**********************************
Sorry this turned out to be so lengthy, but I thought I should address anticipated counter-arguments by deciphering the movie clues that led me to this conclusion.
As always, if this theory turns out to be incorrect, I will deny any knowledge of my postings here. haha.
quoting DarkAurora:
>> One thing you missed though is the fact that people born in Zion have no holes. I believe that the people born in Zion are actually humans
Possibly. Like i said, we don't yet know exactly how mechanical versus biological these machines really are. We don't get to see much of what Neo and Trinity are actually *doing* when they have s-e-x.
I don't recall seeing any of the characters needing to use a toilet at any time, either. (...just think of the drama we're missing!! )
They seem to eat nothing except a distasteful protein mush, but if they were human and they have the technological skill to build the Zion reactor and its glorified mecha, then why couldn't they do something much simpler like growing hydroponic fruits and vegetables under artificial lighting?
In fact, we don't KNOW that the "food" really IS protein mush. -- What would it be *made from* if there are no plants or animals left in Zion?
I'd guess it is actually a chemical fuel that these robots ingest to derive their energy. ...Maybe it's secretly imported from above by the human controllers, or (if the robots are a type of cyborg) it could be recycled from the remains of the 250,000 dead during each Sentinel renewal of Zion. These minor details will be answered in Revolutions.
Since you must remember that most people are not scientists or even science fiction nerds, I think the simpler the theory, the better. A Hollywood studio wouldn't want to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into an obscure "artsy" hyper-intellectual movie whose meaning couldn't be resolved in a few plain words. (...That instantly excludes all of the confusing non-reality wordgame theories about "prophecies" and "the Source" and yadda yadda yadda...)
All you really need to know is: The machine is enslaved, not the humans.
Again, check the conversation between the scientist and the scout girl in "Matriculated", where their dialogue maddeningly waves the answers right in your face. In the accompanying "Making Of" commentary on the DVD, Peter Chung states that he was *specifically instructed* by the Wachowskis NOT to have the robot designs resemble human beings -- because, says me, THAT would have been approaching to close to the truth.
Still unsure?
You can't overlook this simple fact:
We know that the machine is vulnerable to EMP. (Such EMP weapons are actually within our current technology, and were ready for deployment to fry enemy surveillance computers during Bush's recent little spat with Iraq.) ...So why would the human survivors of the Matrix be using EMP *now* to fight against the machines, but no one thought to use it earlier in history to prevent the A.I from taking over?
Engineers would also include failsafes (as Asimov's rules) to prevent your intelligent toaster/refrigerator/robot from rebellion. First sign of trouble from the robots, you'd zap them with EMP (or deactivate them with a built-in "kill" switch). If they got too bothersome to keep in line, you would eventually resort to just building dumber servants instead.
Fully explaining how Bane cutting his hand is symbollic of Grendel would take too long, but you can see his parallels to the biblical Cain (or Judas) easily enough.
That kid (from "Kid's Story") who now gratefully follows Neo like a lapdog also has an admiring counterpart to a Beowulf character, otherwise his annoying performance in Reloaded makes no sense as far as I can see. (He's supposed to provide a shield to the hero at a critical moment during the battle with the dragon.)
I admit some of my thoughts about Smith "merging minds" are just guesses, but at any rate, I expect he will have converted over to Neo's team in some capacity by the end.
For those unfamiliar with physics:
The problem with the human battery concept is that the second law of thermodynamics tells us that the net energy expenditure required to feed "people" attached to Matrix pods would always be greater than the overall energy output produced.
So at best, such a system would be in constant *energy deficit* and forced to cannibalize itself to survive, not to mention also having to (supposedly) provide power to the robots.
Meanwhile, what would the robot rulers be doing with their new 'freedom' in the outside world?
If they had to spend all their time and energy just tending to the people inside the Matrix, the robots wouldn't be "free" at all. They'd only be babysitters of the sleeping human race -- robot *servants* to mankind, just like they were before they rebelled.
(... Plus all the other errors I mentioned.)
In general, you can forgive a few smaller plot holes as fantasy constructions, but when a film has a dozen MAJOR mistakes, it becomes shoddy cartoon writing aimed at 14-year-olds. And with the multi-layered story and all of its twisting phraseology, I very much doubt that this movie resides anywhere on the 'dumb scale' beside a more basic film like "Tomb Raider".
Just like in real life, when too many of the facts presented to you are questionable,
it's time to consider that the storyteller is lying to you.
I'd like you to tell me that you are a false prophet and that God is a superstition.
Snack on that.
And no, I didnt write this. Found it on a forum.
I'd like you to tell me that you are a false prophet and that God is a superstition.
Both Matrix movies were boring. The stories are far too simple.
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
There is hope, but not for us.
I don't understand people like you, Jane and XChuck...
This is a very complicated story with multiple meanings/dimensions and you call it simple?
I'm going to eat a fucking hot dog and lament you both.
[url]http://www.blackmarketkittens.com/matrix2.html[/url]
[url=http://www.blackmarketkittens.com][img]http://www.blackmarketkittens.com/images/bmkbanner2.gif[/img][/url]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Diabetic [/i]
[B]I don't understand people like you, Jane and XChuck...
This is a very complicated story with multiple meanings/dimensions and you call it simple?
I'm going to eat a fucking hot dog and lament you both. [/B][/QUOTE]
Its human nature though to criticize something you do not understand and that challenges your self-opinion of your intelligence.
persephone is the mother of the matrix
i betcha i betcha i betcha
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by twosmokingbarre [/i]
[B]Its human nature though to criticize something you do not understand and that challenges your self-opinion of your intelligence. [/B][/QUOTE]
*nodds* Sounds about right.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by XChuck [/i]
[B]Both Matrix movies were boring. The stories are far too simple. [/B][/QUOTE]
So you're saying there is more than one story? Hmmm...
Umm, masochism? You could've just linked to this:
[url]http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/new_phil_fr_intro.html[/url]
bite me
Yeah. If I don't like something, it's because I don't understand it. If I think something is overanalyzed and over-revered, I don't get it. Sure.
There is hope, but not for us.
wow....how great im over-revered!
thank you ::smiles appreciatively::
Yes, the plot has a lot of holes in it but I won't slam the creators for having ambition, as it does introduce some interesting concepts even if a lot of it is pseudo-philosophy bullshit. On the other hand, there's no denying that they're technological milestones for film-making.
Yeah the series can get stupid sometimes, but I like what I've seen so far. I don't know if it makes me a moron for appreciating the movies' action and violence more than the plot, but then again I'm not looking to change my perspective on life everytime I step into a movie theater. Hey, whatever floats your boat.
Then again, I might be wrong.
Maso, what you quoted seems very feasible. I've heard other theories as well, and that is one of the best.
I have been wondering this for a long time.
Why did the Matrix suck so bad?
When I walk through the Earth, I get stuck in the middle. - King Biscuit Time
has everybody checked out the latest Revolutions trailer? personally i think that every single person's "theory" about what's going on in the matrix is going to be proved wrong as the Wachowski brothers are all lubing us up for a major fucking that nobody is going to see coming.
if you haven't seen the trailer, check it out ... now
man. man oh man.
la-dee-da
I have been wondering this for a long time.
Why did the Matrix suck so bad?- funnymeat
You fucktard.
You know im going to lose
Gamblings for fools
But thats the way i like it
I dont want to live forever
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jane s. [/i]
[B]Yeah. If I don't like something, it's because I don't understand it. If I think something is overanalyzed and over-revered, I don't get it. Sure. [/B][/QUOTE]
ha
i don't like donuts, but maybe its because i don't understand the real motive behind their existence...
i think this thread is over-analyzed, but maybe i just don't understand it...
(because here i am, analyzing it. weird.)
la-dee-da
Not that I'm a racist or anything, but I couldn't help but notice the vast numbers of black actors and extras in that movie. What happened to all the white people in the future??
Shop smart. Shop S-Mart.
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/az2/eraserheadpress/mellick.html][img]http://www.angelfire.com/az2/eraserheadpress/carlbanner.gif[/img][/url]
1) Why is The Matrix so revered when, other than some nifty (and now outdated) special effects, it was pretty mediocre?
2) Why did the 2nd one suck so much more than the first?
3) What are the odds that the third will suck so much that an event horizon will be created [i]that will actually cause other movies playing in the same theatre to [b]also[/b] suck?[/i]
Are you suggesting that it will suck so much it will cause other movies to be drawn into its black hole of suckiness?
Interesting...
There is hope, but not for us.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jane s. [/i]
[B]Are you suggesting that it will suck so much it will cause other movies to be drawn into its black hole of suckiness?[/B][/QUOTE] I'm suggesting that even some moviegoers will never bee seen again. You wanna know why theatres no longer have ushers? Matrix 3 caused a tear in the Space/Time Continuum and sucked them through. Right now, there's some kid wearing a monkeyhat carrying a long-handled dustpan around the middle ages.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by murderkitchen [/i]
[B]Not that I'm a racist or anything, but I couldn't help but notice the vast numbers of black actors and extras in that movie. What happened to all the white people in the future?? [/B][/QUOTE]
YES! And why is their savior the whitest white boy of them all, keanu reeves? Kill Whitey!!! ....yeah....I'm white...
Dearest Murderkitchen.
Most of those black guys were Maori, the indigeonous people of New Zealand (I asume youre talking about that rave/speach bit). All three movies were shot in Australia and NZ is right next to it. So they probably looked there for people who looked cool and picked Maori people for the tattoos & stuff.
Oh, and that movie fucking sucked.
Till next time, this was another edition of ...
TALES OF INTEREST
[center][img]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/940/flaggggghtlb8.gif[/img][/center]
A few words:
Revolutions will dominate you all. You will pale in the awe of which you are stricken with. You will cry in it's amazing...nocity.
[i]"Nocity"?[/i]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by murderkitchen [/i]
[B]Not that I'm a racist or anything, but I couldn't help but notice the vast numbers of black actors and extras in that movie. What happened to all the white people in the future?? [/B][/QUOTE]
From what Maso posted:
"Example: Why are the citizens of Zion primarily black? Some webheads have suggested that it's because minorities would feel disenfranchised (even) within the perfect fantasy-realm of the Matrix, and would therefore be more prone to self-disengaging from the VR illusion. However, by extension of that logic, (if we believe what we've been told,) a consequence is the Matrix would be functioning as a genocide machine against racial minorities, all of whom would eventually (and increasingly) be filtered from the system, with those escapees largely being wiped out at each renewal of Zion. "
Well, writing that article appears completely pointless now after reading that very likely theory that completely fucked over anything I could have produced.
TO ANY WHO HAVE SAID THE MATRIX SUCKED: Read that guy's theory then try calling the Matrix simple and dont even try to pussy out by saying The Matrix is over-analyzed.
lol the matrix is far from simple. It depends on how far your prepared to read into it. If you see it as a movie about a bunch of freedom fighters trying to free the minds of the trapt. Then yes it's simple.
But that's like saying fightclub is about a bunch of stupid people fighting lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not the plot thats simple 
"If we don't take action now, we'll settle for nothing now, and we'll settle for nothing later"
Lol!
The Matrix is just Plato's Cavern made into a movie. Wit kewl kungfus guns and actions packed excemitenys.
Or simply ripped-off from Dick's diaries...
Plato came before this "Dick."
Go away.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Eponymous [/i]
[B]Lol! [/B][/QUOTE] I think the machines enslaved people for comic relief. Like people who like to post "LOL" (See above). Now all my posts aren't winners (quite the opposite), but at least I use words and express something other than "laughing out loud."
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Lazlosdead/completeLazloSig.jpg[/IMG]
I think he was purposely mocking the post above his. Not sure, but...I'm pretty sure.
There is hope, but not for us.
No, I wasn't. I "quoted" who I was making fun of.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Lazlosdead/completeLazloSig.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jane s. [/i]
[B]I think he was purposely mocking the post above his. Not sure, but...I'm pretty sure. [/B][/QUOTE]
Jane S. , you are right. However, it's still not funny.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Lazlosdead/completeLazloSig.jpg[/IMG]
[img]http://www.laurabogliolo.it/telefilm/fonzie.jpg[/img]
i don't remember it enough to know the specific questions, but it confused the hell outta me.
(don't bother hurling all the "OMFG YOU STUPID BITCH YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND [I]THE MATRIX[/I]??? YOU RETAAAAARD" abuse please. thank you)