LOST Season 4 Official Thread

Listening to the 9/21 podcast, they just answered something which I had not heard before, and I am not sure how I think about it...

Basically, they said that any of the flashforwards ARE the future... the flashforwards are not a POSSIBLE future, and there will not be multiple futures. Any flashforwards ARE the future. So, Jack and Kate ARE going to get off of the isalnd, and Jack IS going to be super depressed and useless (oh wait he already IS useless).

I guess that is good, if only for the sake that they dont have multiple futures to confuse us more.

They have said that the flashforward from the Season 3 Finale is not the end of the show or the story, there is more story to happen [I]after[/I] that flashback. They also said that getting off of the Island has never been the point of the show.

At the ending of the 3rd season, i didnt really get if the whole jack flashforward opens up the possibility that a lot of what we though where flashbacks were forward ones. Thoughts?

[QUOTE=Fake Plstic Trees;1046752]At the ending of the 3rd season, i didnt really get if the whole jack flashforward opens up the possibility that a lot of what we though where flashbacks were forward ones. Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

The flashforward at the end of Season 3 was the first flashforward, but there will be more.

So, the day has finally arrived.  I started classes again this week at my grad school, yet somehow, within the last 6 days I managed to re-watch all of season 2 and 3.  I  was going to start with season 1 but for some reason it didnt happen.  it took a lot of hard work and dedication on my part, but i made it through.  and i am glad i did.  i had forgotten a bunch of good, juicy details, and now i am super stoked for tonight.  the only unfortunate caveat is that i have relocated since last season, and neither of my room mates has any interest in the show... one of them has never seen an episode, the other left midway through season 3, because he is a good for nothing traitor, so i am now watching it alone...

I was debating whether or not to watch the preview episode at 8pm, i forgot what it is called, especially since i just rewatched everything it is going to recap, but then i thought, who am i kidding?  of course i am gogin to watch it!

I think this season they are going to go more with the whole desmond/penny/her dad storyline and the whole businessmens conspiracy, which would also include mr paik and sun and jin.

I want to know more about jacob dammit!

i agree, i would rather learn about jacob, too.  However, if we only  get the abbreviated season, which, though i was optimistic a while back, i am expecting to happen, who knows what we will get.  In eight episodes they will not have answered all that many questions, i dont think.  the beginning of the season is going to have to focus on the freighter and the people from it, and why they are at the island and what they expect to do.  (In Ben's words, they will be the death of every single living person on the island...).  We know it is not Penny's freighter out there, but that doesnt mean it isnt Mr. Widmore's.  If they are focusing on these folk, I wonder how much freedom they will have to simultaneously focus on Jacob, though we will surely get a Locke-centric episode in the first 8 episodes, and when we do we will get island stuff, not freighter stuff, most likely.  It is a shame that Richard will not be back this season, at least not in these episodes, due to his show "Cane," but considering the lack of success that Cane has managed I would not be surprised if the writer strike and delay in shooting actually works out well for him and his storyline, because he is one of the isalnd's more intriguing inhabitants, and his character will surely drive the island-centric/jacob storyline forward...

This episode is already amazing.  Hugo is fricking awesome.  Jorge garcia may not be the best actor in the world, but it doesnt matter, Hugo rocks.

Phenomenal episode.  So Hugo and Locke can both see Jacob!  Good to know, glad they put some of the island mystery in there and did not focus solely on the freighter and naomi. 

i really liked this episode, and i think that if the writing stays this course it will be an amazing season.  I wonder what the number of flashfowards will be as compared to flashbacks.

The one unfortuante thing si I want to know what "the temple" is, which is where the Others were traveling when Ben left them to confront Jack.  One might assume it has something to do with the statue of the foot, but I think they were walking in the wrong direction for that.  This storyline ties into the character of Richard, though, and seeing as how he is not in this season, and it looks like locke and his team will be at the barracks a while, i wonder when we will learn about the temple and the like. 

I was kind of happy that almost every scene from the previews were in this first episode, because that way we don't have to wait, to see Charlie or any wonder what was falling on Kate, etc. 

I know I have written more in the Lost Season 4 thread than anyone else, but that is because I am OCD.  But there were a lot of folk last year in the Season 3 thread, posting right after every episode... What did all y'all thinik???

You're probably spot on here. I'm a bit disappointed they didn't start the season with a 2 hour episode, but I liked this one for the most part, a little nitpicking about the melodrama, but otherwise it moved things along pretty well. I can't believe we've been through 3 seasons already and they're just now getting to the group really separating. I've always figured Hurley, Desmond and Rose would be three others who could communicate with Jacob, so even if that's not the focus of this season at least they touched on it. I like that we know that six people escaped from the island, and its interesting that of the six, at least one (Hurley) demonstrated that he wasn't really willing to leave. So Hurley, Kate and Jack, probably Aaron and Claire if you can believe Desmond's vision, so who would the sixth person be? Whoever it is, it's probably the person who died at the beginning of the season 3 finale.

I have a feeling there are going to be more flash forwards than flash backs this season, with exceptions probably being Rousseau, Richard, maybe Ben, and whoever it is that is going to finish off Libby's storyline. Also, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a flashforward episode that took place on the island, rather than off.

I really like this idea.  A few thoughts from the premiere:

[img]http://bp2.blogger.com/_8HhjIy50yEY/R6KepKLiPEI/AAAAAAAAAQU/B5x9-faA0pc/s400/mr.shephard2.jpg[/img]

Jacob = Christian Shepard?

He's even wearing the same tie he wore in the first season:

[img]http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/745/745595/lost-christian_1163636897.jpg[/img]
[img]http://blogs.chron.com/tubular/archives/The_vision_of_Christian.jpg[/img]

Does anyone else think Naomi's crew was sent by old man Widmore to head off Penny's search and eliminate Desmond?

But how would old man Widmore acquire the coordinates to the island (or to a location 18 nautical miles offshore of the island)?

I also like the idea of there being flashforwards that take place on the island... I am not sure how it would work, suspense and drama wise, but I like the idea of it. 

I dont think Christian Shepard is Jacob.  It *might* be the same actor, but I think that is only in order to have a body there.  If you look at that shots of Jacob from Season 03, they almost look like it could be Tom (the Other, now deceased) and in the podcast, when questioned about it, the producers said it wasnt Tom but they would not name the actor... My guess is that IF Jacob has a permanent shape... which he may not, he may be the visisons everyone is having, so he is Jack's Dad, Shannon's Walt, Kate's Horse, etc (I dont know if I would count Hurley's Dave in that list seeing as how Hurley is actually crazy and sees things),... but if he does havea  permanent shape they have yet to decide on an actor for it and do not want to announce the actor before they actually give us the reveal in-show, and so theyre making do with the other middle-aged white guys they got lying around...

Regardless, that was definitely Christian Shepard (or a double) in the chair.  It could have been Jacob (aka Smokey?) manifesting himself as Christian, just like he (supposedly) did as Yemi, the horse, Walt, and (possibly) the post-mortem off-Island Charlie.  They went to the trouble of getting the wardrobe right for Christian, so it's no accident.  The real question is why anyone besides Christian Shepard would appear as such to Locke and/or Hurley.

As to Mr. Widmore being able to find Desmond's location, he staged the race around the world that was supposed to get rid of Desmond before.  It's not a stretch to suggest that he may have been keeping an eye on Penny's search in case Desmond was still miraculously alive.  It seems that Penny has been trying since the end of Season 2 to contact Desmond electronically.  Maybe Mr. Widmore's crew decided to go to the actual Island instead, or beat Penny's people there.  There's a lot that needs to be explained, but it's a viable theory at this point.

wow, great screen cap there! I still say that was terry oquinn sitting in as jacob last season. But thats no question papa shephard. So it would seem that yeah, jacob does change shape. I am really digging the even more non-linear storytelling.

new theories i'm working on include:

christian shephard may in fact not be dead. that he faked his death, and in the finale last year when jack tells them to go up and get his dad he really meant for them too because he is still alive. also, have they mentioned who jack's ex-wife was banging yet? it seems like they did but if they haven't and christian is still alive that may be a reason why he faked his death.

as for the "Oceanic Six" jack, kate, hurley, clare, aaron and maybe christian? I want to say sawyer, but i think that may be a red herring about him being one of them. I do think there's going to actually be more than six get off the island but most of them will be off the record kinda hidden by widmore's corporation or whatnot. and that a majority of them will end up staying on the island, a la the tailies that seem to have converted to whatever religion type thing they're all following. rose and bernard i think would obviously stay, and Locke, who wants to stay on the island most of all of them, i think will end up sacrificing himself so that the rest of them can stay there.

as for this episode, I'm glad to see it was basically hurley centric instead of jack for an opener. I still think hurley is going to be a major cog in this whole story, even more so than jack or locke even.

Why has nobody mentioned the evil Oceanic Lawyer with creepy-as-Hell eyes who freaked Hurley out? There was a LOT of great tension work in that episode last night. It kills me inside that the Writer's Strike is going to shorten what would have been an amazing season. They'll have to work extra hard to build momentum in Season 5 to get the show finished up right...actually, that begs the question - will they keep to their contractual number of episodes to finish the show, or just rely on finishing after three more seasons?

Will they finish shooting this season late and use it as filler in the fall to give us a true uninterrupted fifth season in the spring?

I read somewhere, but dont remember where, that if the writers strike does not end in time to create more episodes for this season then they are going to extend seasons 5 and 6 to 20 episodes each instead of 16, and still fulfill the 48 episode promise.

That's a great screenshot you caught, but I wish ti wasn't so.  I dont know why, maybe because I dislike Jack so much, but the idea of Jacob being Christian Shepard doesnt appeal to me.  Especially not in this scene.  Because in this scene it was Hurley who saw Jacob, and he has never seen Shepard before (as far as we know) and there is no *logical* reason for Jacob to appear as Shepard to Hurley.  Locke was in the room as well, I wonder what HE saw... what Jacob looked like to him... and what he said... I think folk are probably going to be disappointed however they end up portraying Jacob, so we will see in which direction they go.

But it begs to ask, is Jacob the smoke monster?  And I would posit that he is not... First off, the sonic fence keeps the smoke monster our of the Barracks.  Why would they want to keep Jacob out?  Ben might want to keep Jacob out, so he could maintain total control over the ability to communicate with Jacob, but if Jacob is all powerful he would either appear to folk on the other side of the fence, like Ben's mom, and lure them out there to talk... so that is reason 1... reason 2 is that, if you remember, last season when we saw Jacob's cabing it was surrounded by a circle of black rocks.  I didnt seee them this time but I dont doubt they were there.  In the podcast accompanying that episode, one of the fan questions put to the producers was, what were the black rocks for, were they to keep Jacob trapped in his cabin, and they replied that maybe they were to keep Jacob trapped inside, maybe they were to keep other things trapped outside, who knows, but they were not arbitrary and time should reveal their function... While they could be there to keep something out of the cabin, the fact that Jacob uttered "Help Me" last season would imply that he is trapped inside...  Not sure how else Locke could help him, as his actions and motivations right now are in line with Ben's, so unless Ben is doing something against Jacob, what could Locke do in addition?

People have known about the Oceanic 6 for about 3 or 4 months, if you go to the Lostpedia.com message boards there is a season 4 spoiler page, and I went there and as soon as I realized that people were already spoiling who got off of the island and the like I left, so I remember reading about the Oceanic 6 but I do not remember who they were.  I do not think it will be Sawyer, though.  I actually think Sawyer will fie before season 6 ends.  In a super heroic way, but die all the same, muttering some romanticly gruff one-liner to Freckles.   I also question.. In Desmonds "flash," where he sees Charlie dying, and he says he sees Claire and Aaron getting into a helicopter... did we actually see that?  Or did he make it up to convince Charlie to push the button?  Assuming he did not make it up, I dont like the idea of counting Aaron as one fo the OCeanic 6.  He wasnt *really* a passenger on the plane, he was more like a stowaway.  I think he and Claire might count as one.  So, my prediction: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Claire,  Sun, Jin.  Locke will either stay on the island or die in the pursuit thereof, Sawyer will die, Sayid will become even more of an Iraqi Rambo and become the head muscle on the island...

No one has mentioned Michael or Walt, both of whom return this season.  Both return, and supposedly Walt's ridiculous growth spurt is logically explained.  The producers claim they already have a stroyline down to reintroduce Michael and Walt and they were really happy with it, it was incredibly natural and not forced at all.  So they might be two of the six.  OR they might have given the freighter the coordinates?  Maybe theyre onboard?

I still dont think  it was old man Widmore.  First off, his company sponsored the boatd race, that doesnt mean he personally oversaw it and that doenst mean he even knew Desmond was participating in it... I think, especially in Desmond's eyes, the point was for it to be a moment when the race sponsor steps out to hand the winner his trophy and sees Desmond for the first time... so I am still not liking that theory, though I see how it could work.  But, obviously, Penny is no closer to finding the island or Desmond than she was last season.  What is Widmore's motivation to spend millions of dollarss to charter a team of scientists and mercenaries to go find a hidden isalnd to kil someone who is, for intents and purposes, trapped there already?

I don't think it was Locke in the room with Jacob. If you pause it when the face pops up in the window the man you see has brown eyes and a beard. He almost looks like Desmond, but I still don't have a clue. Locke was out walking around just like Hugo. He just happened to find him around the same time.

They wont count Aaron as one of the Oceanic 6 because he was not originally on board the plane.

I didnt see any beard on him, and I would warrant that he is beardless, but good catch on the brown eyes, it is definitely not Locke.  Thats kind of a shame, and a weird transition, for Locke to randomly find him.  We saw Jacob in the chair at the same time that the face came up from the window, so who was in there with him?

Also, I dont think I am sold on the possibility of Jacob being Christian Shepard... jbuckley, did you take that screenshot yourself?  Because I looked at every single frame of that scene, and NEVER was it lit nearly that well, you could barely distinguish that he was Caucasion, never mind the color of his hair or tie.  You could clearly see he was wearing white sneakers, though, but thats it.  I dont know if that is a doctored screenshot or what, but there is only one scene release of the episode available to download, and unless that is a screenshot from the ABC streaming episdoe, I know that my release is not that bright.  I do not remember, now, what it actually looked like on TV...  I just know that the video I have does not show nearly as distinct nor well lit Jacob...  EDIT - i just looked at the scene on the ABC HD streaming video, and it might be a bit brighter than mine, but still doesnt seem as bright as the screen shot posted above.  But bright enough that I guess it isnt doctored. 

I'm glad it was Hurley's episode and not another Jack episode, and I'm really happy it wasn't a feel good Hurley episode. As for who Jacob is - it doesn't seem right that Jack's dad, whose has a definable history, would also be parading around on this island. It doesn't seem so unbelievable to think that he may have been recruited by Jacob somehow to do...whatever. We don't know yet, but I really doubt they'd end up having Christian be Jacob. It was definitely him sitting in the chair, so he was probably visiting Jacob. I wonder how much  Locke can see - was he looking for the cabin, was he trying to find Jacob? Interesting stuff...

As for Widmore going through all this trouble to find Desmond, that doesn't make sense to me. If he wanted Desmond dead, rather than just out of the picture, he'd've had him killed a long time ago. He doesn't seem to be the type of guy on high moral ground, so morelikely it's a coincidence that Desmond is on the island that Widmore is trying to find. Although, Naomi did ask for Desmond by name, so who knows.

As for the writer's strike affecting the season, it seems like the WGA is one step closer to reaching a deal with the producers. That'll give them 7 more weeks to get back on track before they run out of new episodes to air. Imagining that they've already shot quite a bit of footage for future episodes (knowing they've got to work around real time vs. flashbacks vs. flashforwards), I'm sure this won't be too hard.

Oceanic 6 probably includes Jack, Hurley and Claire. Aaron gets off the island with her. Kate - does she mention a golden ticket? I'd imagine she got off the island somehow secretively. Locke is mostlikely never going to leave the island, or perhaps Jack has him taken off the island to be tried for murder. I like the idea of Christian being one of the Oceanic 6 - that'd be a mindfuck of pretty big proportions.

what happened to the rest of the posts in this thread? wasn't it a couple pages long before?

If you go onto lostpedia they have a pretty clear Christian/Jacob shot . I guess Jacob really is Christian, but that is a big let down. It seems like almost every one of the main characters has a daddy problem. Maybe Christian is the big daddy of the bad dads.

But Jacob, as an entity, most certainly preceded Christian Shepard.  Christian Shepard's dead, embalmed carcass has been on the island for 90 days.   And I sincerely doubt he was ever there preceding those 90 days, you need to be recruited in order to get there (or a castaway) and you need to be a higher-up in order to get permission/submarine to leave.   So I very sincerely doubt he was ever on the island before the crash of Oceanic 815, and even after the crash, I am still going to go with the belief (hope?) that he is dead and his casket was empty just because the island was messing with Jack's head or he fell out and was eaten by a polar bear or something... not he came back to life and i working for the island.

The only way Christian Shepard sitting in that chair swings with me si to believe that Jacob does not appear the same to everyone, which is not unplausable considering it / he was invisible to Locke for quite a while.   Quite possibly Jacob and the Smoke Monster are like yin and yang, they are necessary opposites that cannot exist without one another.  So anything the one knows the other knows... so since the smoke monster has done scans of pretty much all the Losties, or at least a good number of them, and knows all about their lives, then Jacob knows the same info and has decided to manifest, at least at the time being, in the guide of Christian Shepard.

Hmmm Also from Lostpedia... " The scene at Jacob's cabin was also filmed with Hurley in the rocking chair. This might have been a  red herring, to prevent leaks by the crew" ... it might have been a red herring, or it might have been they writers/producers not yet 100% confident on how to depict Jacob this time around...

Also, another piece of trivia noted... Jack and Hurley wewre playing Horse.  Jack got an H and an O.H is the 8th letter fo the alphabet, 0 the 15, hence 815.  Also, when the lawyer from Oceanic Airlines comes and Hurley freaks out, there is a statue of the letters HO behind Hurley.  FInally, Hurley originally saw Charlie in the convenience store next to the Ho-Hos.  Ridiculous shit.

Another cool think is that the painting we see Hurley working on was really made by Jorge Garcia while shooting.  Thats cool.

Its a full time job trying to keep up with this show. Every little thing I have a question about I have to pause it, rewind it, or repeat it in slow motion. I never knew watching a show would take so much effort to understand.

That's what makes it one of the best on TV. No passive viewing (well, you can view passively, but where's the fun in that?)

the funny thing is, monkeywright, you could either be 100% serious with your post, or you could be being 100% facecious...I am going to assume that you're not being sarcastic... because that is the same thing that many Lost haters complain about... while it is something I revel in...

Again, although we saw Christian in Jacob's cabin that doesn't mean Jacob is Christian. Morelikely, Christian is some sort of manifestation being controlled or working alongside Jacob. I wouldn't be surprised if he really was dead when the plane crashed and that Jacob is manipulating the survivors somehow, for whatever reason.

Also, here's my prediction for the next week or so: Ben and the rest of the Others are going to be shocked to see Michael and Walt returning. My theory is that they kidnapped Walt thinking he was special but not realizing that he was also really dangerous, so they were more than happy to let Walt and Michael leave the island, thinking that they'd pretty much float around in the ocean and possibly die. But instead, they were found out by Penny's father who is trying to find the island for his own purposes, and using the little info Walt and Michael knew about the place, they were able to get within rough coordinates of the island. It wasn't until the signal became un-jammed that they were able to locate it specifically. So, Walt and Michael are about to return, and it's going to spell bad news to the Others who wanted Walt as far away from the island as possible.

Also, I really hope that Jack decides to hunt down Locke before leaving the island, because he wants him prosecuted for murder. I think that'd be such a tragic semi-conclusion to Locke's storyline.

Also, this season needs flashbacks to explain Libby's past, what happened to the Sheriff (the producers acknowledged that she was dead but we've never seen that), and to give some closure on Beagh's storyline. I would also love to see a Rousseau flashback as well. The rest can be flashforwards, and I'm really interested in seeing (on the island) why Hurley switches from Locke's side to Jack's side, and why (in the future) Jack changes his mind about the importance of the island.

Funny note: I kept updated Lostpedia to include Horse as something more than just a game, that it actually had some - albeit small - significance, but people kept deleting my link. After enough time, someone else finally caught on and agreed with me, and also pointed out the number coincidence, which I'm pretty sure was just dumb luck for the writer's. But the ho-hos and the HO in the background were definitely staged. That's cool about the drawing, I didn't know that was Jorge Garcia's work. Pretty good.

I really hope John Locke isn't killed by Jack. Mr. Locke is by far my favorite and I think he does have a big deal to do with the island and its oddities. I think in this season he will finally break away from Jack (kinda already did) and take on a huge leadership role. Of course something bad will happen to him, but I'm not sure if it will be by Jack's hands.

Jack is a nancy.  If he kills Locke I will be sorely disappointed.

I would not be surprised to see Michael and Walt on the freighter either, though I dont think it has to do with Widmore.  Michael barely met Desmond, if at all, and he certainly does not know Desmond's back story.  I also do not see any huge imperative for Widmore to look for the island...  Considering that Naomi had Desmond's photo I guess we have to assume it associated with Widmore, but I cant understand why, and I dont think Michael would have known to find Widmore...

Also, thinking about it, as much as I want it, I doubt Michael is on the freighter... Naomi said Oceanic 815 had crashed and they had found the plane and all passenegeres were accounted for and dead.  And she seemed pretty genuine in her disbelief that they were 815 survivors.  If Michael and Walt did in fact make it back to the States, and it was because of them that this search party had made its way to the island, why would Naomi still believe that 815 had crashed somewhere else and everyone had died?

Cuse and Lindeloff have said we will get a Rousseau flashback, but it might wait until Season 5, they did not promise it in Season 4.  They also promised more info about Libby but did not reveal from whom it would come (my guess is another Desmond flashback will tell the bulk of it, and then maybe one other person will give a fleeting glimpse of her... maybe she went crazy when Desmond got lost/lost her boat? Desmond wouldnt know this but we could learn it some other way). 

Why Jack changes his mind in the future will certainly be answered along with whatever secret the Oceanic 6 are keeping and along with whatever lie they are telling everyone, and along with why scary lawyer dude (who stars in The Wire) is after them.  However, I wouldnt expect all of those answers in Season 4. 

I dont think Walt was idnapped because they thought he was special... they kidnapped all of the children, because they need some way to continue their community's existence.  After kidnapping him they found out he had special powers, and tried to figure out how to use them, and I dont think they *wanted* to let him leave with Michael, they wanted to continue stufyign him and the like, but they most assuredly breathed a sigh of relief.  Anyone who watched the Lost Missing Pieces knows that they had Walt in Room 23, trying to brainwash him, and everything went to hell (and this wasnt the first time, you hear the Others saying that he is doing it again) and there is a pile of dead birds outside of Room 23.  The question is, did Walt cause them to drop dead and fall out of the sky, or did they fly into the building and die, kamikaze style?  Were they trying to break him out?  He did, somehow, get the polar bear to show up when he read Hurley's comic that had a polar bear in it...

Also, they said they will have an explanation for Walt's growth / maturity, and the fact that in 94 days he has sprouted a full beard and grown a foot and a half.  Does time just move more slowly on the island?  It will be interesting if the folk from the freighter say how long ago Oceanic 815 crashed... It was long enough ago for there to be a huge memorial for CHarlie, a Driveshaft reunion album and tour and #1 hit.  Could all that happen in 3 months?  Charlie wrote the songs!  How could the other members of the band, some one whom, like Liam, have not been playing or performing for a while, get back into shape and write music that quickly, and then get it produced, on the radio, and organize a tour?

I want to know about Richard. He doesn't seem to grow old while Walt on the other hand is growing old fast. Maybe this is bad make-up, but I've always thought something fishy was going on. Richard could be special in a way too. Mind you, I haven't watch any extra videos of Lost...only the show its self. I'm sure there is a video out there explaining this.

i want to know about richard too!  i think a lot of the fans do.  he is not going to appear in the first half of season 4, though, thats for sure, he was too busy with his new show.  but there is a possibility that the failure of his show (cane) in addition to the writers strike might reap us the good results of his story being written into the second half of season 4 as opposed to us having to wait until season 5.

with only 16 episodes a season as opposed to 22 / 23 i wonder exactly how much momentum each season will have, and how much will be revealed. wil the quantity of revelations per season be maintained, or the quantity per episode?  does that makes sense to anyone else?  i hope per season, because otherwise it will just be the equivalent of watching two seasons over a three year period, and thats lame...

I'm pretty content with the flash forwards. That might be enough to keep me happy this season even if not too much is revealed. I have an off topic kinda personal question for you...is that really what you have on your back?

Yup.  And I just recently added a bit more to it, above the wheel, and in the next few weeks will be adding a lot more to it.  It is all Buddhist in nature... On the back of my neck I have "Form is Empty" as well as Sanskrit text reading rUpa.m ShUnya.m, which means the same thing, it is a line from the Heart Sutra.  Below that is the wheel, and 8-spoked wheel, known as a dharmacakra, which is representative of the 8-fold path of Buddhist teachings, as well as an image used to represent homage to the Buddha himself.  In the center of the wheel is a circle with three interweaving parts, representing the triratna, the triple gem, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, which are three important and oft repeated elements in Buddhism, and you "take refuge" in the triple gem when you declare yourself a Buddhist.  Below that is the sanskrit for the phrase tathAgatagarbha, which translates to "Buddha-womb," often called the seed of enlightenment, and it is a Mahayan Buddhist belief that all sentient beings ahve the capacity to become enlightened beings, they just need to realize and actualize it.  Below that are a pair of lions, the fierce and royal protectors of the Buddhadharma, Supporting and upholding the TathAgatagarbha ideal, and below one lion is the Sanskrit word karuNA and belwo the other prajna, which respectively mean compassion and all-discerning wisdom/insight, which are two fundamental necessities for the path of the bodhisattva, and they are two of the ideals that support my practice and my life.

You definitly have a lot of pride for what  you believe in. That looks like some seriously painfull detail.

Im not gonna rehas anything because Im a couple day slate, but an interestin side not was the lawyer that visited Hurley in the hospital was named Matthew Abaddon .  Abaddon is a biblical refernce to the 'destroyer' or king of locusts in the Book of Revalations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

Also a new ARG has started with the new Oceanic commercial that was on the Eli Stone show.

Do you know here you can see that? I missed it.

I also wonder about time passing on the island - it's obviously different for some than for others, or Others, rather. Richard obviously holds some of the answers to what's going on, but when it comes to time on vs. off the island, it seems pretty normal if you think about Jack being shown the video about Boston winning the World Series and Ben showing Juliet the video of her niece, who seemed age-appropriate.

Regarding Walt, Locke knew Walt was special almost immediately, so I would think that the Others would have suspected that as well, if not through Ethan's spying then possibly through their background checks. If they didn't know before they kidnapped him, they sure found out quick enough, though, and I'd be shocked if they weren't relieved when an opportunity arose for them to get him off the island in a way that showed the least amount of weakness on their part (trading Walt and Michael for Ben seems rational, even to the Others, I would assume).

As far as Widmore knowing Desmond, I don't think it's a very big stretch to imagine Walt and Michael being found out in the ocean, and being taken in by the Widmore group before news spread about survivors of Flight 815 being found and when being quizzed about where they've been these last few months, I don't think it'd be a stretch for Michael to say something along the lines of, "And then we found a hatch and in it, some crazy dude named Desmond--". This would definitely pique Widmore's interest and make him even that much more intent on discovering the island, although I'm sure Michael is fighting to not be brought back to the island seeing as how he's a murderer and all.

Also, the only thing I can think of in terms of Libby's story is that her husband died so she gave the boat to Desmond, who in turn disappeared and is presumed dead. This might be enough to cause someone with any already fragile mind to snap, thinking maybe she was cursed, and put in a mental hospital with Hurley. Who this story will be told through, I'm not sure, though.

Finally, I still think that there is some cover up for Flight 815, possibly by the Widmore company but morelikely Sun's father's company, Pak Heavy Industry. Maybe they're working in cahoots by planting false evidence of the wreckage somewhere in the Pacific which would clear up some room for their continued pursuit of the island. I'm convinced that Pak industries, the Widmore group and Hanso are all working together to utilize the island for some as yet unknown purpose, and Jacob is trying to stop them. I'm thinking that Alvar Hanso and Jacob are twin brothers and when all is said and done, we're going to realize that although he was doing what he felt necessary to preserve the island, Jacob is the "bad" twin and Alvar is the good one because he wants to use the island's mystical qualities to better/save mankind.

 Okay folks, fairly new to the Cult and new as of just now to this thread - well, I've actually been reading all the posts for a good 45 minutes now - and I have two questions for you all:

1. Did anyone read Bad Twin by "Gary Troup" (aka Purgatory)

The Widmore name appears in the book quite a bit and some research regarding an off-shore site of some kind is also in a scene in the book.

2. Who was the guy at the hospital who tole Hurly, "I'd be careful, That guy's looking at you"? 

Who was he and why could he see Charlie?

Stoked to find some Cult members who follow the show. Been quite the fan since it started, but some of the info you guys have tracked down is amazing. 

I agree that this seems logical but it bears two questions, one pragmatic and one canonical:

1. Pragmatic - What is the likelihood that Widmore is the one that finds Michael and Walt?  Are we assuming he is looking for the island so he has search vessels reandomly circling out in the south pacific, and as such is the first one MIchael sees?  if not, what is the likelihood he would be the one to find MIchael?

2.  Canonical - Does Michael even know about Desmond?  I do not think he does. I would have to rewatch the first and last episodes of season 2, but I think that Michael was not part of the initial group of folk who found the hatch (dont forget they kept it secret for a while) and I think he had already left by the time to find Walt by the time Desmond came back.  When Michael killed Libby and Ana Lucia, was Desmond back yet?  I dont think so because I am pretty sure that Desmond's boat did not crash back on the island until the season finale, at which point Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley and Michael had already left to "rescue Walt."

As far as time passing... The taped Red Sox game makes no difference it could have been taped whenever and shown to Jack.  But you're right about Juliette's sister and niece, they did seem pretty normal, or rather that the appropriate 3 years had passed off island, and it was supposedly a live feed. I guess we have no proof that it was a live feed, though.

I havent read "Bad Twin," though I knew that it referenced Widmore and off-shore investigations... if I am right it also mentions Hanso, yes?  I had forgotten about that, but I guess that lends creedence to the possibility that Widmore is searching for the island without knowing that Desmond is on it but rather just because he wants to exploit its resources.

Maybe Hanso IS the hanso that crashed the Black ROck onto the island and it gave him some sort of immortality and he's doing all this to find his way back to the island.

I think the other mental patient that could see charlie could be another imaginary friend of Hugo. Hmmm...wait, was that the guy who kept saying the numbers over and over from the last time Hugo was in the mental hospital?

I am also wondering if maybe libby didn't end up in the hospital because she was having the same string of bad luck (the numbers?) as hurley was. would explain even more why they hit it off on the island.

and also, also, maybe the flash forwards are NOT showing us the end of the storyline, maybe they'll have an even further flash forward where they do go back to the island for whatever reason they need to? Series finale mayhaps? hmmm

The patient who saw Charlie was named Lewis.  We do not know anything else about him, and whether he is real or not... though I like to think he was real, as Hugo is getting better at separating his delusions from reality.... maybe....  The patient who told Hurley the numbers was Leonard Simms.  He was a U.S. naval officer stationed in the South Pacific before and/or during 1988. With his friend and fellow officer Sam Toomey, Leonard monitored longwave radio transmissions  at a government listening post.  In 1988, the station picked up a transmission consisting of the numbers 4 8 15 16 23 42 repeating on a loop. (Danielle Rousseau and her science team also caught the transmission around that same time.) The Numbers stayed with Leonard and Sam. After Toomey used the numbers in a game of chance, a plague of bad luck seemed to befall those around him. Leonard and Sam believed the Numbers to be cursed, driving Sam to suicide, and Leonard to insanity.

We did not see Leonard in this episode.  I doubt Libby was put into the mental hospital because of bad luck associated with the numbers... Hurley learned about the numbers At the hospital (he was there because he was at a party and he went out on an overcrowded deck and it collapsed and killed two people and he got all sorts of crazy in the head as a result.  never midn that he eats to hide himself from himself, cover up the pain of his father abandoning him, to destroy himself in some way).  So Libby might have learned about the numbers there as well, but I doubt she learned them before going there.  My question is, how crazy is/was Libby?  Did she remember Hurley from the hospital?  He would always say he remembered her from somewhere but didnt now where, and she never seemed to be dodging it... I wonder if she even remembers him or her time there? 

The producers have already hinted that the flashforwards may not be the end of the storyline, but just somewhere farther along than where we have gotten thus far.  They didnt say more than that, but it is an interesting storytelling device... if there is a point in the series where the mian action of the episode occurschronologically  AFTER the current flashforwards, that means an entire as of yet undetermineable period of time would have been narrated solely through flashes.  They woudl not show the flashes again as real-time full episodes, so we would get to a juncture where we skip a period of time in the narrative, because it has already been told.  This would be a valuable way to bring the main storyline, the one that the majority of each episode is dedicated to, to the current time. 

I had forgotten that there wa sa Hanson connection wiht the Black Rock.  But the Dharma Initiative was a Hanso Foundation project, and we saw all of them get mass murdered.  So I doubt there is any connection between Hanso and Jacob.  More likely the Hanso aboard the Black Rock made it off of the island, and then told the story/legend of the miraculous island to his family, and his grandson or whatever down the way believed him and committed himself to finding the island and exploiting its properties.  And then all of his people were murdered because they could not play nice with the current inhabitants of the island.

I have to work every Thursday night for the next month Watching it recorded on VHS doesn't really cut it.

I used to download it from iTunes every Friday morning because I didn't have a TV. I think you can also stream it for free at ABC.com.

With that said, I'm excited for tonight's episode. I finally got around to watching those Missing Episodes, and even though most of them were filler, there were some that bring up some intriguing questions, especially about Walt and Christian. Also, I like the fact that for the first time in as long as I can remember I don't really know much about the upcoming episode.

I see that they're running last weeks episode before the new one tonight. I hope they keep doing this throughout the season. it's a great reminder leading into the new episode every week!

I forgot about abc.com. You can watch the entire episode the day after with only a few interuptions. Hehe, I got out of work tonight. I'm excited!