You Can Make Him Like You - Book Club December '11

This is Ben Tanzer stopping by to say hello. I really appreciate your interest in You Can Make Him Like You, I look forward to talking about it with all of you and I thank you in advance for any and all cash and/or in-kind donations. Myles is my 9-year old son, he is the person interviewing me in the above video and I am definitely happy to lend him out to any of you if you think he can help you increase book sales in any fashion.

Excellent choice. This book rules.

Welcome Ben!

Hey Nik - Stay and discuss.

I look forward to seeing what you both have to say.

Very cool to have this book discussed. I've followed Ben's work for a while. He's damn good people. Myself, Nik Korpon, Brandon Tietz, and Ryan W. Bradley all sat around to a roundtable with Ben a few months ago. If interested, check it out. It might help place the genius words with a genius discussion-eer: http://www.welcometothevelvet.com/podcast/2011/03/episode-014-roundtable...

You had me at genius.

Thanks for the link Caleb!

I finished this last night.

The one thing that really strikes me about this book is how honest it is. It's not always "likable," but it's really honest. I mean - obviously towards the end. But even in the beginning where it just seems like Keith is being funny or an asshole. He was just doing things we wouldn't admit we do or think.

Ben - have you read much Max Barry? I thought the tone of this was comparable to Company. Company was more confused while this was more real though.

I'll post a pretty good passage that doesn't reveal anything to give people an idea of the writing (for those who haven't read it yet).

"I can totally snuggle." I say as convincinlgy as possible.
"But you don't want to." Liz says looking right at me.
"Why would I want to? I'm willing to. But I would rather have sex."
"I know."
"And it's been..."
"You remember the last time? Please don't tell me that after all these years you still keep track of the last time we had sex?"
"No." I say self-righteiously.
Bullshit, I always know. Who doesn't? Liz knows and if she says she doesn't, she's lying. Plus, since we almost sort of had sex last night I had been hoping to make a joke and lighten the mood. I will try again.
"Anyway," I continue, "I only know because it was the same date as Hitler's birthday."
"What does that mean?" she says sitting up onto her elbows and backing away from me.
That so didn't work.
It was supposed to sound funny. It clearly didn't.
"It's a Woody Allen joke," I respond wondering how this night has gone so terribly awry. "It's from Might Aphrodite. You laughed when he said it in the movie."
"I don't remember that," Liz replies, "plus no offense, you're no Woody Allen."
"But isn't that a good thing? I'll never run off with your adopted daughter."
"What's wrong with you?"
I'm starting to think even a hand job is out of the question.

First off, thanks for the read Pete, I really appreciate it. And second, I have not read Max Barry, but I will, so thanks for that as well. I also appreciate the use of "honest" and "real" to describe the story and writing. Frankly, I am happy anyone is willing to try and describe my work in any fashion.

That said, both are important to me for a variety of reasons. I think if I am going to be drawn to stories that are driven by how we struggle to cope and communicate and somehow be part of relationships that just might work, "domestic dramas," as I think Caleb once described them, then even if they're ultimately fictional and involve situations I might not find myself in, the above scene excluded sadly, I feel like I need to be as honest as I can be about how I would react and speak, even if the character is unappealing, and even I come off as unappealing because otherwise I'm not pushing myself beyond writing what's comfortable and funny. I'm also not sure it's believable.

Also, though, from the start I have been taken with the idea of show, not tell, on the one hand, don't describe a situation, create it, be in it, capture the rhythm and taste and smell; and trying to capture a "real time" vibe on the other, this is what is happening and how it is happening right now, this is the internal dialogue and the external dialogue and we, me, you are in it now, right now.

One final thought, and maybe a defensive one, is that Keith the protagonist thinks of himself as an asshole at the start of the book, but my intent was to show that he isn't an asshole, or doesn't have to stay one, but he is confused and he lacks awareness and he doesn't like himself, and as the book evolves, both he and the reader come to see that he is wrong, or that he wasn't entirely correct anyway, and he can learn more about himself, it just may be hard, and confusing along the way.

I read an article a long time ago (and I know that there are books about this) that with technology and television and video games, we are growing up much slower than we used to. It used to be you would start your family at like 18-20. Now people don't start their families until much later, mid 30's or even 40's. I think Keith exemplifies that attitude of not wanting to grow up and being forced too, almost.

Anybody who can't afford to buy the book and participate can try and win it here:

(reposted from Ben's facebook)
http://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/show/18001-you-can-make-him-like-you

You'll get it a little late, but you can always post in these threads for as long as you want.

So you know, I think part of it is not wanting to grow-up, not more than anyone else maybe, but I also think its something else I was trying to go for, that in both real life and literature, coming of age, or in this case, the coming of age story, doesn't need to be relegated to YA and debut novels, or focus exclusively on teenagers and young adults. Why can't there be a series of coming of age moments over the stages of the lifespan, forced and otherwise?

hmmm. im really interested in the discussion between asshole keith at the beginning of the book and less asshole keith at the end. im not really sure i saw much of a difference in the level of assholeness in keith so much as him using different criteria to make his decisions. maybe he used a little bit more maturity when making big boy decisions but i never really thought he was an asshole.

im interested though. what do people think about the idea that for a book to be successful it is necessary for the protagonist to "change" or to "transform" by books end? is it that important? and if so, why?

what are some favorite books where the protagonist doesnt change at all?

tropic of cancer? women?

I was trying to think of one and then you said - Women. I'm pretty sure that one fits.

I don't think it's important for the main character to change. But does something in the book at least have to change? If nothing changed the book would be pointless and boring right?

G Funk, good to see you brother. And good questions.

I don't think the protagonist has to change or transform by book's end, but I do think there has to be some kind of conflict or dynamic tension throughout the story that the protagonist in in the middle of, and that conflict has to be resolved in some way, good or bad.

As I wrote this I thought about The Road. There's no transformation or change in terms of the character, but there is a tension around whether he can get his son to the coast and into safe hands before he dies. Which he does. Which is nice. But there's no transformation.

Of course a tension here is that the protagonist is inherently good, even pure. Would be interesting to think about a more evil, or at least damaged, protagonist where there's no real transformation, but there is some kind of resolution.

Television seems to do this fairly well, Don Draper from Mad Men comes to mind, as does Walter White from Breaking Bad, though I'm just getting into that.

Also, any thoughts on what I see as a newer thread especially in indie writing where there's no real conflict in the stories, much less resolutions, and the writing seems primarily focused on the wander, and the moment, and that at some point the moments stop and so does the story?

Speaking of television, I do believe that Keith is watching The Shield at one point, is he not? I think he mentions a specific scene or plot point too and he's interrupted.

The Shield being one of my all time favorite TV shows, well let's just say I looked at Keith in a whole new way from there. ahaha

My name's Nathan, by the way -and it's nice to meet you, Ben. I love talking about books with Pete and others and I read your book months ago -in April or May, I believe, and I did really enjoy it. Glad to see this discussion here so far too 'cause it's a good refresher.

All that said, I thought there was definite change in the character -"growing up" was touched on, and right -Keith's learned to actually embrace growing up. I remember feeling that in the very end.

Something else too, Ben -you mentioned the coming of age moments at all stages of life. And I think that's why I related to Keith. He's constantly questioning, thinking, wondering -facing and fearing and overcoming. It's like that in real life. Movies are sort of ridiculous when you think about it, because the character faces a great struggle that changes him, and it's this big dramatic climax and the movie ends. But in real life, that character would be facing another change tomorrow, and the day after.

It never ends. Keith gets that by the end of the book. And he's okay with it. It's REM's "It's The End of The World, and I Feel Fine." That's what I heard when I finished this book. The end is just another beginning.

It's good stuff. I'm sure I'll have much more to say as the conversation continues, but I feel I've babbled enough for one night. Just wanted to chime in, 'cause it is a really good book. Thanks for the read.

Oh and will you be releasing more of your work through Kindle? I recently got one and I'm all over that.

I got the book this morning and I'm about a third of the way in. Really enjoying it so far. I relate to this asshole main character although I'm neither married nor male nor even close to his age.

I'll read this thread more thoroughly next week when I'm done reading.

Hey Nathan and labelleza, and please do tell me what that means, the latter, not the former, should I know, glad to see you guys join in the conversation and thanks so much for your interest in the book. Really awesome. And really appreciated.

Nathan I'm also especially glad to see your response to The Shield for a couple of reasons. I was absolutely obsessed with the show and was really interested in not only trying to contrast Vic Mackey's insane, unabashed and unquestioning version of masculinity and his black and white take on good versus evil, with Keith's version, which to your other point, is questioning about everything, what it means to be male and an adult, what's right and wrong, how we become fathers, especially to sons, all basically the kinds of things Vic never stops to lose himself in or muse about.

But I'm also fascinated with what readers react to in these books. The Vic Mackey passage is something I very consciously wrote to serve a reference and a sort of short-hand, but it's also fairly short. Still it resonated with you more than other references, and maybe more than it did for other readers, and why that might be is endlessly interesting to me.

Meanwhile, I am about to make a blatantly self-serving and self-promotional comment, but something you might find interesting is that one of the people who reviewed the book also locked-in on the Vic Mackey reference -
http://www.smalldoggiesmagazine.com/reviews/books/you-can-make-him-like-....

In terms of Kindle, thanks so much for the interest, and coincidentally, I just had a short story collection So Different Now drop this week, that was just added to the Kindle store yesterday. The collection is a sort of response/reaction to an earlier collection I did, Repetition Patterns, which is also in the store, along with a collection of essays I wrote on the intersection of running and writing called 99 Problems.

I suppose that's enough for now, maybe, yes?

My username? It means "Hopelessly Full of Myself" in my native language. You can call me Jessica though and I'm glad you're around as it's really very cool to get to talk to you.

I think you described this really well.

I actually did think exactly that... it did have a "real time vibe"... felt really quick and not just because it was relatively short. The short chapters made it all feel like it was moving at the speed a really stressful semester does... that might not make sense but I'm saying that I dug it because it was perfect.

I liked Keith a lot. You did a great job of keeping him sympathetic.

I've only recently started reading books you could call "indie" but I have noticed that a lot in short stories published online. That might just be because of the length though... it's probably easier to focus on a moment than trying to make a conflict, fix the conflict... I think it can be lazy and boring but I've also liked many of them when done well.

Also, that video interview with your son was adorable. So were you already writing this story when those songs inspired you to finish or did you decide to write it while listening to them?

I am loving the "Hopelessly Full of Myself," and I appreciate your explaining it. Jessica it is though. And so thank you Jessica for the thoughtful comments and kind words. I'm thrilled to be here and I think it's very cool of all of you to come here for this dialogue. In terms of The Hold Steady songs, I had been thinking about writing a book looking at a group of intersecting thirty-somethings dealing with different facets of being in that age-range, pregnancies and infidelities, love and work. But it was loose, just a kernel of something, nothing coalesced, no story lines or anything. And then I went to a show by The Hold Steady and as I was listening to the various songs about aging though still young, small town, druggy hipsters I began to see the group of characters that I wanted to write about as the characters from these songs if, when, they got older, and a little less druggy and small town. That night at the show, the characters started to take shape, their stories and conflicts and relationships, and later when I was ready to work on the book I fired up these songs and started to write about these people that now had some shape and form and places to go, and mashed all that up with how I saw life in Chicago, and to some extent the pop culture and political universes, at that place in time.