We Are Oblivion - Book Club June '11

And the review I did, published over at Outsider Writers Collective:

Sonbert’s back and he’s brought the rock ‘n’ roll attitude we saw in his debut, The Never Enders, with him.

We Are Oblivion is dark, dirty and certainly not for the weak-stomached reader. The candid descriptions–sometimes of violent acts, sometimes of sexual acts, and sometimes a marriage of both–are enough to send the filthiest of men running for the toilet bowl with a mouthful of their undigested lunch.

Stephen Mansfield, our first-person narrator is–or, at least, thinks he is–an ex-boxer that got his head punched-in one too many times. As a result, he’s suffering from amnesia, chasing ghosts of memories: Rapid-fire images of faceless men boxing. The song “Rio” by Duran Duran, a mysterious “Superman” logo tattooed on his chest, and the constant taste of salt in his mouth are a few of the puzzle pieces he’s trying to put together, with little to no help from his girlfriend, a pregnant prostitute, who he knows only as Fancy.

Sonbert turns the Noir and the Unreliable Narrator dials up to 11 in We Are Oblivion. There’s something undeniably noir about an amnesiac ex-boxer with a penchant for violence and sex, isn’t there? And, if you thought the drug-induced, alcoholic mouth of Perry Patton, from The Never Enders, was unreliable, then, shit, you’ve got no idea what you’re in for with Mansfield. The poor guy doesn’t know if he’s coming or going, and his femme fatale girlfriend takes every opportunity she gets to let him know it. It’s clear very early on that there’s something not quite right about her, but what, exactly, is she hiding, and why won’t she tell Mansfield about his past?

The two take off, leaving their shitty New York apartment behind, on a harmless road trip, with the, perhaps unrealistic, notion of ending at Paris, fucking on the Eiffel Tower. But, when they’re jacked by some creeps outside of Clevelend, their trip quickly turns into a game of survival of the fittest that leaves a pile of blood spattered victims in their wake.

With cops hot on their trail, Mansfield and Fancy take us on twists and turns through the dirty motels and back streets of America, running from the crimes they left in the last city, until they reach what seems like an early climax, but plays out for a couple of chapters until the real pay-off is revealed. And, like a right uppercut to the kidney when you’re curled up in a ball, praying for the barrage of fists to end, you’ll never see it coming. Never. And it’ll leave you pissing blood for a week.

The novel flies along like a stolen vehicle down a highway in the middle of America. At only 140-odd pages, one would expect as much. But, with that said, it’s not just that. The prose flows and you find yourself lost in Mansfield’s messy world. The chapters are short and sharp, like a jab to the nose you never saw coming.

We Are Oblivion does that special thing the best kind of books do–it teeters between gritty, fast-paced genre fiction and intelligent, character-driven literary fiction perfectly. There’s always something going on. Sonbert has a knack for engaging the reader with action, and it keeps you flicking the pages, fast as you can, moving toward the building climax. But, at the same time, you’re trying to stop and savour the beautifully dark images and characters.

Sonbert’s done it again: He’s produced an honest book that packs a punch (Yep, I’m milking the fighting clichés for all they’re worth) that’d knock out a heavyweight champion in the first round.

OK, I guess I don't need to text you to let you know I opened the thread. lol

Hey guys, I'm smashed for time right now. My own fault. I planned to get in here with some points today but I've just been too busy. I also wanted to read the book on more time before getting this going Sonora nice and fresh. That said, give me a day or so to come up with some specific discussion points, but to get the ball rolling, chime in with your general thoughts, or pick out something I mentioned in my review and discuss it further. A lot of the points I bring up in the review are things I'd like to speak about in more detail, in particular the ending.

So, quickly, I'll bring up the general content: shocking, huh? There's some pretty fucking violent and outrageously foul shit in here, which, I think, is only made more full-on by Mansfield's blasé attitude towards describing it. Right? He's just not phased. Detached. I haven't seen that level of detachment in a character regarding hyper-violence since BEE's American Pyscho.

So, what're your thoughts on that?

I KNOW plenty of you have read this badass little book so there's absolutely no reason why this discussion should kick absolute ass.

Oh, also, I've been speaking to Michael and he's let me know he won't be joining the discussion. He'd rather throw the book out there for the sharks. Which is cool. I dig it. He wanted me to let y'all know that he's super proud that we've chosen his book to discuss and he's blown away by how much support we've all given him. Basically, just a bigass thankyou to everyone here, everyone that bought (or copped a free copy from me--hah!) and read the book.

Now, get on it: general thoughts, the violence, any points in the review you want to discuss further.

I swear at some point at the beginning of the book I thought it was about Christopher Reeve. Then it got more and more awesome, and I knew I was wrong, and I was reading what would become one of my favourite books. I finished it today. I can't say I have mixed feelings because I don't; I liked it, I liked it some more, then loved it. I enjoyed the ending because I wished he'd end up with the teenage girl, and maybe, maybe that girl asking for Superman is real, and she's her, and she'll bring him to life. But I'm glad I don't know what happens though.
On a side note, translating this for publishing would be a dream come true.

I'm sure they'd at least consider doing electronic format translations.

I haven't quite finished this book, it's been keeping me interested the whole time though... that's hard to do sometimes.

My first thoughts are 'sickest thing I've ever read'. I told a friend that "I think the author got the sickest things he could think of and then threw it into a book", then I continued on to describe the snorting vomit scene. There have been a few times I've felt my stomach churn but overall I'm enjoying it

BTW, Claudelives, thanks for posting Rio! I have been meaning to check that out

Oh well I felt like I had to, you know that it was only appropriate -I just couldn't imagine this going down without a little Rio! ahahahah

Stuckinmyheadforquiteawhilenowthanks.

Do-do-do-do-do-do-do. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do...

I know -I went as far as to download the greatest hits torrent from demonoid, but then I put a stop to it and said, "No. No. No. You have to get over this."

I wouldn't say "detached", but this is a semantic point, maybe. He seems genuinely intrigued by the things he does. He just really has no idea why he does them. I would suggest "disassociated". I use this term because of the way it is used in pain management. Through the use of certain medications, pain is still felt, but it's like looking at someone else's pain; it's not yours. This seems to describe Mansfield's (if he is, in fact, Mansfield) attitude towards many of his more appalling acts. The person inside him, the person buried under tons of brain-damage, is acting and he, the present Identity, is watching these scenes unfold. "Detached" strikes me as more the way one might set up dominoes and knock them over out of boredom. One knows exactly what will happen, and isn't surprised when -tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk-tk- they go down in a chain, but there is zero emotional investment, neither malice nor glee. Mansfield feels first rage, then real affection for the teenage girl at the end of the book. Then he is stunned to see her injuries and her fear. He is deluded and confused, but not unfeeling.

Yeah, you're dead on there, Tuff; disassociation is the perfect word. The end, with the girl, when you see, like you said, the rage followed by affection followed by shock of what I took as reality really hammers that disassociation home. It really shows how fucked in the head he is. How severely confused and delusional he is. It makes you--well, it made me--stop reading and think back on all the fucked up shit that has happened over the last 100 pages and think about how it might e actually played out if we weren't seeing it from Mansfield's perspective. I mean, you know the whole time that Mansfield is an unreliable narrator of the tallest order, but, again, perhaps this is just me, you fall into that trap of believing him, sympathising with him, but then when this happens you're thrown back into reality, forgetting you've been living in Mansfield very fucking skewed perception of reality.

Something I'd like to touch on regarding the vulgarity of some of the violence, which, yes, I think was definitely justified as characterisation, is that after a little bit I kinda just got over it. It lost it's punch for me and I found myself, not cringing because I felt sick but, cringing because I was almost rolling my eyes at yet another overly sexual or overly grotesque violence scene. In particular, the first time i really noticed that I was well and truly over it was that bar scene fairly early in the book where the chick is getting fingered up her skirt, but she's on the rags and the guy pulls the tampon out and flicks it onto the floor. That was enough. And plausible. But then it goes on to talk about how he wants to pick it up with his mouth and play with it and that was just too far for me. I could not justify that. Now, I'm all for the violence. And, I'm not the makes-me-sick kinda person. I can read that stuff and I'm fine. So, it wasn't that. It's just that we really get no justification of Mansfield's actions/desires/motivations until the last thirty pages.

That was my biggest gripe with the story, really. And, it didn't stop me loving this book. At all. I'm glad Michael had the guts to put it on paper. I'm glad he didn't tone it down.

Thoughts?

Agreed. (Spoiler) Take that scene in Vegas, or at least I think it was Vegas, but he becomes quite giddy from publicly humiliating those gentlemen. And he never really denies his responsibility in it all, either. He never wanted to go through with pulling the trigger. Even felt bad about things at certain points, it seemed like, or as bad as he could. On the flipside, though, like Matthew points out, the way he describes a lot of their crimes, particularly the robberies, is a little too matter of fact.

Yeah, I think this is a good point to discuss. It's something that the book hinges on. I'm sure it's something that will turn a lot of readers off. It's also something that may turn a lot of them on, too. Either way, the violence and sexual content in this book is at te forefront. And, like I said, it's not really realised or justified until the last thirty pages.

If everyone could chime in with their thoughts on this that'd be great. Keep this thread rolling for a bit before we move onto something else. I'm really interested to hear how everyone else felt about it.

I felt like you, actually -at first it was fascinating and refreshing, then about 70 pages in, started to lose its charm. But then that's where it starts to get into a closer look at their relationship -that's where Sonbert came through for me. Right as I"m about to say "Fuck. Enough already. Where's this going?" Mansfield starts to really question who he is, and more importantly, who Fancy really is.

You said it best here, "it's something that will turn a lot of readers off. It's also something that may turn a lot of them on." A conflicted reader, I felt like for sure. I thought the writing had balls, but then our Boxer and Hooker were so repulsive that I started wondering if I even gave a shit about who Mansfield really was anymore. We joke about Rio, and Zoig The Robot -but little things like that -the personality of the story kept me interested and got me through the meat of the rough stuff.

Exactly. Right at the point where you're about to decide that it's just two repulsive people that you don't want to know any more about, he makes you want to know more about them.

How does he do that? What was the catalyst for you both (and anyone else that wants to chime in)? Was there a particular scene that clicked for you and made you want to stick with Mansfield to the end?

Not a particular scene for me so much as a series of them (SPOILERS) where more and more people are recognizing him as "Superman" and he starts to realize that maybe he's not this crazy fuckin' asshole after all, and only let himself believe that he was because of Fancy. Makes the reader go, "hey, maybe he's being manipulated."

He can't take back the shit he's pulled, but you start to believe that maybe he wants to make things right, and Can make them right, leading me as the reader to believe that he'll find a better person in himself, and there might be a showdown between Mansfield and Fancy as a result. A sort of Darth Vader moment, with Vader saying "wait a minute here" before throwing the Emperor into that lightning pit.

Then that gets thrown out the window with Fancy breaking down her background story, and filling Mansfield in on the fact the he Is nobody, but that she takes care of him anyway -despite all the pain he brings by forgetting her and acting differently toward her. Maybe she Is the good one, but just can't take it anymore and all this book has been acting out, a cry for help.

The brilliance I'm referring to is in that scene where they have the poor couple tied up, beaten and tortured, and still that tied up woman is finding a sincere caring, interest in these two and all their talk and heartache over their baby. That woman is the Reader. Sucked right in.

I'm having to fight myself not to read anything the second I realized there were spoilers. Must finish this tonight!

Come on, you lot. I know a lot of you have read and are reading this. Come and talk about violence with me!

Finished this morning!!!! That was pretty brutal.

[Edit - Gonna be a bunch of spoilers in my posts!!! Please dont let me spoil the book for anyone]

I felt like you, actually -at first it was fascinating and refreshing, then about 70 pages in, started to lose its charm. But then that's where it starts to get into a closer look at their relationship -that's where Sonbert came through for me. Right as I"m about to say "Fuck. Enough already. Where's this going?" Mansfield starts to really question who he is, and more importantly, who Fancy really is.

You said it best here, "it's something that will turn a lot of readers off. It's also something that may turn a lot of them on." A conflicted reader, I felt like for sure. I thought the writing had balls, but then our Boxer and Hooker were so repulsive that I started wondering if I even gave a shit about who Mansfield really was anymore. We joke about Rio, and Zoig The Robot -but little things like that -the personality of the story kept me interested and got me through the meat of the rough stuff.

Yeah the violence could be off-putting for readers I suppose. I never really got the same level of gut punching impact from this as I did from some parts of American Psycho by Ellis or The Room by Selby though.(Those two books could probably join up with WAO to make some kin of ultra-violent triple threat compilation) I think Nathan nailed the reason in his post that I quoted above, it's Zoig the Robot, it's the black helicopter, the orange jump suits, and the Duran Duran. I feel these things gave the story an almost cartoonish feel most of the time.

I'm not saying the violence was better in those other books, I just don't think it's handled in the same way.

Patrick Bateman is a psychopath, whilst Mansfield is more of a moon howling loony. In American Psycho the mutilation of the hookers is broken up by lunchtimes at top class restaurants. Bateman had a normality (albeit an unusual one) to flit in and out from. In WAO there's no quiet room for Mansfield to take a break in, he's stuck in an escalating clusterfuck of crazy. For me it all put an almost comic slant onto the story.

Right at the point where you're about to decide that it's just two repulsive people that you don't want to know any more about, he makes you want to know more about them.

Tuffy is spot on here. Sonbert is a damn tease. He keeps holding Mansfield over the edge, threatening to drop him somewhere beyond the point you can care any more, but then keeps yanking him back to safety.

I think the very best example is the paragraph right after he snorts Fancy's puke. The line about being jealous of the people clever enough to write their initials into wet cement. This throwaway idea, this naive, immature, and almost cute little thought is such a contrast compared with what the reader has just witnessed Mansfield do. Snorting vomit one paragraph, being cute the next. Total tease. Entertaining though.

Hmmm

One thing I'm not 100% on is the last chapter. It was a neat finish, but I dunno, was it maybe too neat? Did we even need that? I sort of wish it had ended on the beach.

Months ago...maybe even close to a year ago, Sonbert had me read one of the earlier versions of WAO. It was good, but not nearly as good as it is now, and the ending--although I really can't remember specifics...it was vague. It didn't really hit. It wasn't like the series finale to Lost were you got to decide in your own mind what had really happened, but more along the lines of being confusing. I had to call him up and explain to me what he was trying to do, which is never a good sign.

I like the ending. It's clean but it still leaves me thinking about a few things. There's a certain catharsis that I get with this version that it didn't have before.

I didn't get the ending, so some spoiler tags and an explanation would be appreciated.

Hey guys!

I wanted to finish the book before I read any more posts... didn't want to ruin the ending! Just finished last night. What a ride!!

I overall enjoyed the book. This book made me retch, laugh, and wince.

Little things that I didn't like were the convenient clogging and unclogging of his ears, salt taste in the mouth, and the helicopter. Little repetitive things like that start to get on my nerves, although now that I am done I understand why that was happening but maybe it was a bit too much?

Valmont>>

""Spoiler**

From what I got out of it, the first chapter and the last chapter are the only things that happen in 'reality'. The bus that they took went off a bridge and every one that was on the bus was in the 'dream'.

The whole last chapter was a rescue scene, so 'Mansfield' sees all of the characters from the adventure flailing about and being rescued (this is where the orange jump-suited people and helicopters come in). In the end I believe he's supposed to be hearing Fancy say 'Save me Superman!' and he drowns.

**End Spoiler**

Disjointed thoughts; it's 3:30 a.m.. Sorry.

I dunno. If it had ended on the beach, the story would have been "Brain-Damaged Asshole Shot By Cops (or Drowns Self Before Cops Catch Him)" which, to me, would have been both obvious and less-than-fulfilling. I'm not a fan usually of "twist" endings - they're heavily overdone - but this one twists and twists and twists again.

If we take the first chapter at least to be real, then Mansfield is still an evil, brain-damaged ruin of a man but, throughout the book, we get these flashes...

I get a beer, something on tap, served in a translucent glass marked by fingerprints and the memories of a million wasted days.

...(among others) of poetry, of beauty, from him. I think we are getting glimpses of what's left of the man he used to be, before the brain damage, before the gold-digging wife, before the thrown boxing matches. Assuming any of that happened. Assuming Fancy's lies weren't more false memory.

When I first read the above quote, I was yanked out of the book. It was the first real "what-the-fuck?" moment for me. I remember thinking "This does not belong here."

Towards the end of the book, but before the final chapter, Mansfield tastes salt water again, but for the first time remarks upon it in surprise. He's becoming aware that some things just aren't adding-up. Then we're taken back to the bus crash. We never do find out exactly who "Mansfield" really is. Or was.

I finished this yesterday. I fucking loved this book. I think I want to sit on it for a day and try to read through all of this. I'll try to get some time to post something tomorrow.

But I'll be recommending this one out for sure.

So it surprised me to see that nobody has reviewed this on amazon yet. So I copy and pasted my goodreads review over to there.

I tried to read The Never Enders (Sonbert's first book) when it first came out. For some reason I couldn't get in to it. But I was really excited for this one. I can't even tell you why. Maybe it was because a lot of friends who's opinions I respect said it was good? Either way, I couldn't wait to get my hands on a copy.

So I ordered it the day it came out.

Started it shortly after.

And I started reading... And at first I thought this was going to be like his first book, and I wouldn't be able to get into it. At first it was a rough start (for me at least). But once Sonbert gets into the groove (or maybe it was once I got into Sonbert's groove), this book really starts going.

As you read this, you're constantly thinking something is off. Something just isn't right. There are all these clues. And you want to piece them together, but nothing makes sense. They just don't fit. And Sonbert keeps you guessing right up until the last few pages. The story was much more than I thought it would be.

As for the actual writing style - the prose is the reason I loved this book. For such a brutal, disgusting book - the prose is just beautiful and poetic. There were sentences that I just read a few times because they were perfect.

I can't recommend this book enough. I will be buying it for friends. I will be mailing copies out to my "internet friends." I will be spreading the word. Hopefully one day, Sonbert makes it big.

Also - I picked up my copy of The Never Enders after finishing this. I really do think I just wasn't in a good place when I tried to read it because I read a few pages and really enjoyed them. I will be restarting that one in the near future.

SPOILERS FOR A BAD INTERPRETATION OF THE ENDING:

He is in a mid death / life state. Various people who are drowning or being saved are those left alive or whom have died. He is floating in the gateway between life or death. He has the chance to be saved by the boatman (a paramedic, angel or whomever offering to save him) yet after bringing Rio into the world and realising his crimes he accepts his death?

[WHOLE MESSAGE IS A SPOILER!!!!!!]All of the crimes and Rio being born didn't happen. It was all a twisted dream. That's why I feel it would have been better if it had have ended on the beach. When I found out it was all a dream I was kind of disappointed. [END SPOILER!!!!]

The ending seems to be polarising people.

I want to add to my earlier comment. [Spoilers!!!]

For a 'twist' ending it was really neatly done, and the references throughout to elements of the rescue were neither cumbersome nor obvious. And yeah, there is an element of mystery left regarding who the person we have been following actually is. So, I didn't hate the ending. I'm not going to say it spoiled the book or anything.

It did seem a bit tame though. And I do sort of wish that one of these ultra violent books would finish without questioning whether any of the events actually happened.

On another note, one element I though was really impressive was Mansfield's flip in attitutde to Fancy. For Sonbert to take this wrecking ball of a relationship as far as he did, and to then tear it apart like that, was kinda tragic.

And the self C-section. Rather fucking brutal, having the cheating couple tied up there watching added a whole extra layer of messed up.

Exactly what I thought too. The very end with the "Save me Superman!" leaves the book open ended, imho. It's along the lines of what Matt said where Mansfield is such an unreliable narrator but you find yourself wanting to believe he really has it together.

Yesterday at work I was explaining the book to a co-worker to help wrap my mind around the bastard. The one point I really want to focus on is how in the little time between the crash and Mansfield waking up in the water, a whole cross-country trip "happens" in his mind. To me it's a similar experience to having a fever or being so ill that at times you hallucinate and be in a state where your mind keeps repeating the same thought over and over like a mantra. Just like Mansfield keeps obsessing over Rio, the helicopters etc. What really hit home with me was that the mind can have different speeds of time depending on your level of consciousness. Just like a dream can seem like hours when in reality it's only been a few minutes. So basically I really enjoyed the twist on a level even deeper than the book. How do we perceive reality and "real time?" How can we trust ourselves that we are really us? Very similar to Murakami's Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World.

You know what this reminded me of, not the tone of the book at all, but the third act, is [SPOILER!] the film Stay with Ryan Gosling. Everything that happens in the waning moments of life during a trauma and all those characters on site in his senses playing roles in his invented adventure. Which, er, I guess I just spoiled the movie for you, too. . . (I thought it was really good, btw)

I haven't seen that flick, G. Interesting. It's definitely a concept, a notion, worth exploring. Something we've all likely considered at some point. Even if you haven't experienced it, personally. Might have to seek out that film now.

What I'd like to do right now, guys, I'd just steer away from the ending for a little while, for a couple of reasons: it's something I'm sure a lot of people are going to want to discuss in great length--I know, for me, it's something I'd like to discuss greatly. I've already texted Pete a million times last night talking about it. So, let's touch on some other things first before we get stuck on the ending. Too, if those that have discussed the ending (which gives away the story) could PLEASE edit their posts to CLEARLY state spoilers. Like so (This is gonna be an actual spoiler for those still reading):

[SPOLIER ALERT!!!] because even saying something like "...finding out it was 'all a dream'..." is a give away and I really dont want anyone's reading experience to be blown because they couldnt wait to get in here and take a peek because they've been enjoying the book so much. [/END SPOILER].

Be a bit courteous of the guys and girls still reading the book.

So, we'll definitely get back to the ending, don't worry about that. But, let's move towards it, rather than starting at it.

One thing I'd love to discuss is a theme that runs deep in the core of the novel. One of you touched on it above, but referred to it as "cute", which kinda bugged me. The idea is: "A nobody trying to be a somebody". Trying to make his mark on the world. Not be forgotten. To be remembered, even if it is by attempting to kill the president. You know? I think this is something that's a big deal in this book. It's what it's all about. It's why they do the things they do. And, perhaps, Mansfield (the real one, the one we see at the end) is a nobody and...

[SPOILER!!!] before he goes he has this elaborate projection of images played through his mind by his sub-conscious. It's something they say happens. "My whole life flashed before my eyes". But, what if it was like it is here: "My whole life as I never had the guts to live it flashed before my eyes...I hope it's not too late to fix it, to be somebody, to make my mark on the world...*gargle gargle*". You know? It makes the ending pretty sad, really. Which is something I considered after Pete and I spoke last night because we spoke about the ending--him being all for it and me being a little apprehensive about it for reasons I'll discuss when I bring the topic back up later. [SPOILER ENDS]

So, yeah, what do you think about that idea of a nobody wanted to be a somebody, through whatever means necessary? I think, a lot of young people, Gen Y kids, would adore this book, in the same way Gen Xers related to Fight Club. There's this theme running through the generation now. We're in a celebrity-driven world. People have woken to it and realised they don't HAVE to be nobodies anymore. They can go on a reality T.V show, even if they have no acting talent, playing themselves, being the selfish, greedy people that they are, and become famous, get their own book and merchandise and maybe star in a block blockbuster flick. Kids all want to be Musicians and Artists and Writers and Photographers nowadays. No one wants to take over the family business anymore. We're all wing selfish because we all want to be somebody. No one wants to be forgotten. We've woken up to the fact that we can be that, even just for one short season, or until the how gets cancelled.

So, I think this theme speaks to a huge audience and is not only an integral part of the novel, but one of my favourite parts.

Thoughts?

I popped them old spoiler warning on my posts, sorry bout that Matt. You are, of course, right to grumble about that, my apologies to anyone that may have been annoyed by our clumsiness.

[Warning! There's likely to be more spoilers here!!]

One thing I'd love to discuss is a theme that runs deep in the core of the novel. One of you touched on it above, but referred to it as "cute", which kinda bugged me. The idea is: "A nobody trying to be a somebody". Trying to make his mark on the world. Not be forgotten. To be remembered, even if it is by attempting to kill the president. You know? I think this is something that's a big deal in this book. It's what it's all about. It's why they do the things they do. And, perhaps, Mansfield (the real one, the one we see at the end) is a nobody and...

Heh, guess it was me that bugged you eh?

I don't think I meant that in quite the way you read it man, I was pretty much only refering to that one paragraph, that thought of Mansfield's about leaving initials. I wasn't trying to comment on the greater theme you are highlighting.

I was trying to express how striking I found the contrasts in the peaks and valleys of Manfield's psyche, because my opinion of what this guy was about really yo-yo'd for a while during the middle of the book. The guy is a metronome.

The 'cute' comment was just me thinking it's cute that a deranged man who has just snorted vomit could still find a spot of beauty in something like initials in cement.

As for the theme you have highlighted, yeah, I'd get behind that. Early on it's very apparent in Fancy, picking out people to kill and the like, she gets real wound up after missing on the credit on the grassy knoll. It comes on stronger and stronger for Mansfield too, and I'd say Rio being given a chance to live on is probably the climax of that particular facet of the story.

--> (edit - more spoilers!) if this is all some kind of mental wish fulfillment thing in his waterlogged brain, certainly the idea he unconciously fears for not having made his mark gains strength. If he's creating this story for himself, then he has given Fancy those characteristics, and her longings are quite possibly just extentions of his own.

Exactly. Fancy is like Tyler Durden in some ways. And this is just my interpretation of the text, but, I feel like she is there playing that part to push Mansfield because he needs someone there, pushing him, motivating him to do these things, to make something of himself. So, she's all the things he could never be.

This interpretation came to me last night after some thought. Now, Pete and I texted for quite some time, talking about the ending mostly and sort of laying out our cards. He was all for the ending. Me, not so much, for certain reasons.

I want to discuss my interpretation of the text a little more but I can't really do so without disclosing too much of the ending because it really does play an integral part in the major theme of the novel, which I believe is that notion of "A nobody being a somebody". I've just been texting Pete again and told him about my interpretation, and he's pretty into it. I'm just glad I got there because, really, in all honesty, I was just mad about the way the book ended at first. I was disappointed and I felt cheated and it just made me so pissed off. Once I read the reveal I seriously put the book down and did not want to read on. But I did. And, it also made me more annoyed, I think, that even though the ending pissed me off I still loved the book. Adored it. Enough to gift 20 copies to people when it came out, anyway. Yeah, I still thought it was a great book, but I didn't fully appreciate it. Now, I want to buy 100 copies and throw them off buildings at people, because this book, We Are Oblivion, is Generation Y's tale. It's our burning fear. And it runs so deeply within not just Generation Y, but within all of us. The theme at play here is so universal. I just wish that this book wasn't put out on an indie label and had a major release. I wish that maybe the sex and violence was toned down a little so it could've been sold to a major press because this fucking book deserves to be read. Man, it really does.

I can't wait to share what I think about it now. The ending is perfect. It's sad. It's gorgeous. Ah, fuck. I just want to talk about it right NOW.

Okay, so go on. What do you all think about that theme. Did you see it clearly throughout the story and do you think it is a major theme and integral to the story?

Martin, there's a little spoiler in your edit, too. Please be careful, man. One little description like that can blow the story for someone else, giving away the surprise and reveal.

Michael has worked really hard to bury the clues and puzzle pieces in this story--and, may I say, what a job he's done. Perfectly strings us along, upping the stakes until the twisting twist of a twist--and it'd be a shame for someone to read two words and get that a-ha moment 50 paqes too soon.

I'll just add that I kinda think that it's a given that there will be spoilers in this thread.

I waited 'til I was done to come in and read through, anyway.

Still digesting it all.

I'll just add that I kinda think that it's a given that there will be spoilers in this thread.

I'll be honest, that was my original thought too.

But Matt is right though really, it was our call to wait until we finshed the book, but not everyone works the same way. Bottom line someone could start the book next month or next year and want to come post here, who knows?

Matt, I think you're pretty spot on with that theme. I'm still digesting the story but flipping skimming through the book again your interpretation pops out at a few places.

SPOILER!!!

I think ever since the 1950's we've become a people that crave instant gratification with the advent of instant coffee, microwave dinners and so forth. As you mentioned we don't want to work but all want to be famous for nothing. And in the past decade with the fusing of the Internet, social media and handheld devices that allow us instantaneous global interaction we've become a society of sprinters instead of marathoners. Our attentions are grabbed in small spurts that soon fizzle into nothingness.

For example, in the first chapter here's Mansfield's thoughts, "I pour hot water into the flowerpot, wondering if it's possible to burn a flower from the root up. Steam rises as the TV shouts, begging for attention in the distance."

I'm sure we could dissect almost any sentence to squeeze some meaning, but just running with Matt's idea, this excerpt can be seen as Mansfield essentially trying to play God with the plant. The notion that we as people need to be noticed by any means necessary, even if we have to destroy to create attention. And once a whim has been satisfied we're distracted by TV, tweets or so forth. As long as we can have our moment in the spotlight. Essentially we all crave attention and need to be heard. And Sonbert has done this with diseased genitalia and over the top violence. As we become more desensitized we're going to need bigger and louder ways to grab our attention. And how far can it go? Just my two cents worth for now

END SPOILER

Like I stated above, I loved this book. I really did.

But then after texting Matt a bit, like he stated, it was kind of like discovering this whole level that I didn't even notice. I liked the story. But now I like the whole book, the themes, everything.

I'm pretty sure that every one has thought - "Is this what I really want to do? Is this what my life is going to be? Fuck no! I'm going to do this and this... Later. When I have time..."

It's scary for everybody. I know I think about it all the time.

Also I believe Fancy when she says, this isn't the first time. I think we are only seeing one of his dreams. I think he's been playing all the things he's wanted to do out in his head.

Also I believe Fancy when she says, this isn't the first time. I think we are only seeing one of his dreams. I think he's been playing all the things he's wanted to do out in his head.

[Spoilers below!!!]

This part was real heavy, like that part in the movie Memento where Carrie Fisher's character tells the protag that he's already killed the guy he's looking for, and that he's killed a bunch of other guys who just had the same name. That was one of my favourite parts of that movie, and the similar concept fits really well here too.

However, for me it's potentially two different kinds of heavy.

I say this as I'm unsure as to whether I actually believe Fancy here. When I first got to that scene I lapped it up, loved the idea like I loved the scene in Memento. However doesn't the ending kinda cast a big question mark over this? Still pretty intense though, because this way round Mansfield is projecting the idea onto his Fancy and is doing it to himself. It's a impressive feat of self-depreciation if you ask me.

*

Really I'm having a bit of trouble digesting this book. Even a while later I haven't really been able to decide who I believe Mansfield to be. It's a dual edged sword I'll tell you. On the one hand I love how the book manages to somehow wrap up the story and yet leave huge questions at the very same time. It's an intrigue. On the other hand it's doing my nut in. I may have to re-read at some point in the near future, see if a second go makes up my mind.

BUMP!

Well, surely everyone has read it by now?

So, where the fuck are you all? It seemed last month EVERYONE had a copy of this book in their hands. So where are you now? Come and talk about it. Plenty that we've already discussed that you can jump in on and put your opinion down. Don't be scared.

I'm still keen to talk about the stuff I touched on earlier, which is all pretty spoiler-heavy, but I'm over holding back on spoilers, so: FROM HERE ON THERE WILL BE SPOILERS!!! So if you STILL haven't read it, and you're in this thread, I suggest you just pop on out.

I'm not at the computer right now, but when I get to it later today I'll be opening up the flood gates and discussing the ending in detail--why I didn't like it at first, or to be more direct, pretty well hated it. Also, why I now love the ending. And pretty much discussing my interpretation of the text in relation to the major theme I discussed earlier.

So get ready, folks. And, please, if you've read the book, come the fuck in and say a few words and make our book club discussions worthwhile. I'm over all you timid little bitches being too scared to voice your opinion on a book. If there's something in particular you want to discuss that we haven't covered yet, then just bring it up. Come on!

Everbody seems to be discussing TSMG already. Grrr. Which I've not finished yet.

Well, I haven't really had much time to be around the last couple of weeks due mostly to being flat-out with DN, but I'm kinda disappointed that this discussion didn't go further. We started so well. Some really good discussion points. And, really, it's just annoying that everyone has been all "yeah, I read it and loved it" but that's the extent of what anyone ever says about book's here. It's frustrating. I doubt I'll offer to be a discussion leader again. There's no point. Not if no one else is willing to contribute.

But, Tuffy, thanks for really getting involved in this one. You were a champion. I just wish more people would. Especially the one's that day they're going to. Fucking bummed.

Eh. The thread's here. It'll come back. You know how things go in & out. I just wish I had more to offer right now.

The book left me confused. Which, may have been what he was going for. Yes, we get an ending that's pretty neatly wrapped-up on the face value, but we still don't know who the hell we've been following around for the last x number of pages. Part of me likes that, but part of me wants its shit wrapped-up in a neat little bow.

Another angle might be, what kind of film would this be made into? Violent surrealrealisme à la Natural Born Killers? A more shaky-grainy Cinéma vérité documentary? Or a straight-up punchy action flick with thick monologue voice-over and B&W flashbacks? Or what?

Oh, I think it would be awesome filmed in Natural Born Killer style.

*SPOILERS*
And then at the end when you find out it's all a dream, all the weird cartoon, or dreamy, or overly comedic scenes would make so much sense.
*END SPOILERS*

An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge. Ambrose Bierce. Anyone read it? More likely, seen the short film? It was later used as a twilight Zone episode...

That's all I want to add right now.

Haven't read that, no, but a quick google attack found it online here.

I shall have a read later when I got a bit more spare time, but how come you decided to post that? I'm assuming that it draws parallels with WAO is some way?

#

As for a hypothetical movie version of this - if it were ever to happen then I hope that the director wouldn't just focus on the violence. I would hate this to be billed as one for the torture porn crew because I'd say we can all agree it could be a whole lot more than that. If anything I'd rather see the violence toned down a notch in the movie so that the relationship between Mansfield and Fancy can really take centre stage.

Clearly the violence is important, but with the way a lot of directors take violent movies these days the whole thing would just be a drip-feed build up to the self-caesarean scene, and that would be the only part many folks remembered of it.

The reason Natural Born Killers was good (IMO) is because by then end of the film you have a feel for Micky and Mallory as characters, and this comes as much from the calm moments as it does the crazy. This is something that doesn't happen in the 'gore for the sake of it' movies. Sonbert absolutely does this in WAO, what a shame it would be if a film version were to lose that.