Transubstantiate - Book Club September '10

I like the idea of it, but it's too direct. You're doing the "I can count my overdoses on one hand" thing. That one works because we don't know quite yet about his polydactyly, so its cleverness is delayed, while still being good in the meantime. I'd just make it something about how you have a lot of tattoos, and then show him getting one after his latest kill later in the opening chapter.

Thanks guys. It's hard to tell your Pulitzer nominated professor that he doesn't know what he's talking about. The book does need a narrative hook, and really, every chapter should have a narrative hook, every SCENE really, if you're good, but especially the beginning.

It's too heavy-handed for me, and PG, I also like coming into a book not knowing everything. That discovery, those moments of revelation, of enlightenment, those are so cool. I'll have to fight to NOT put that on the dust jacket or say that in public too much, what the Narrator is. Well, hopefully this will be placed with an agent, and a bigger, better press so that I'll just say to them "Sure, guys, you're the experts, whatever you want is fine with me." And mean it.

My professor also says (picture it in a croaking southern voice) "Leave the slow reveal for the strippers." Well, he's obviously not a fan of Lost, Memento, Seven, or the mystery/detective/noir/neo-noir genres.

I guess I'll slap this here for now. Probably somewhere more appropriate, but:

http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/contrasting-the-dark-with-the-light/

Thanks Gregory. I already started a thread in the promotions forum as well, so no worries! Here's how I kind of do it when I have something to promote:

Facebook
Facebook Transubstantiate Group (if appropriate)
Twitter
Write Club
My blog
Transubstantiate blog
Velvet
Cult

BAM...world domination

Good discussion so far, everyone. Do any readers have anything else to add? I'm still interested to know what people thought of the success or non of the magical elements.

And perhaps, enlighten me a bit on the use of the cave in this book. I mentioned a bit about it in the second post, but honestly I don't have anything additional to add there.

The cave | This image of the cave seems to demand comparison to Plato’s Allegory of The Cave (as all cave references seem to want). Is this a valid comparison? The cave is very mysterious, often physically transporting people across the island. How does the cave fit into the otherwise realist narrative?

Well, I'll leave it up to the readers to comment on the fantastical elements, whether they worked or not. It was definitely something that I went back and forth on.

As for the cave, I don't think that I wrote that intentionally to have anything to do with Plato's Allegory of The Cave. That's above my pay grade I think. There may be something unintentional in there about philosophy and reality, perception, but I don't think I can take credit for anything close the what Plato had to say about it all.

The one thing I could not take serious and had to convince myself was just an hallucination was the squirrel (or was it chipmunk).

If you look at the chipmunk, as well as Bast, as well as Assigned (origins, or past, at least, from the rainforest, the tree, the table, the computer) you can see that there are some fantastic elements going on here. Both Bast and Raymond were human at one point, and were punished. Bast's history is spelled out late in the book, and Raymond's is hinted at, mentioned quickly with Roland.

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And in fact, Bast is X's sister, and we know that he has supernatural abilities, and has been around for a long time, so it's safe to assume that she may be more than mortal (human) as well, even though she "dies".

*************SPOILER ALERT*******************************

Roland does hint that Raymond is a hallucination, but that's not true. We see Raymond running all over the island, even assisting X and in the end he plays a very crucial role.

I did at times question those elements. But in the end, they stayed in. If we can believe teleportation, and other strange things, why not talking animals, or really, humans trapped in animal form.

I'm interested in your thoughts on how you planned/wrote the females in the book. I felt there was a maiden (Jimmy's girlfriend), mother (Marcy) and crone (the old woman who lived on the island who captured Gordon) element going on, which I loved. That got slightly thrown out of whack by the young woman Gordon then killed, mind.

The part I wasn't as sure of, was that it seemed you reduced the two surviving women to baby making machines at the end, not that Jimmy's girlfriend had much more of a role than damsel to be protected, but Marcy had been pretty strong up until then.

Thanks for the question.

First, I'm not a woman, so I have to rely on my experiences with women - as lovers, girlfriends, wife, mother, grandmother, friend, etc. So a lot of that is me building off of my personal experiences.

Madison, yes, she was a secondary character, one that if I had decided to expand this book, or if I have a part TWO, I would beef up for sure. In many ways she was reduced to a damsel in distress, but I think there's a bit more to her than that. That's why I chose to write about here in the special BONUS CHAPTER that is only available in the signed, limited edition. It goes into her past, her relationship with her grandma, and some of her special abilities.

Marcy I think was my attempt at a femme fatale, but I wanted to do more with her than that, so she's also a mother. I don't think that in the end she is reduced to a baby making machine, that was something she wanted all along, mostly to get her off the island, but in the end, it solidified her relationship with X. I wanted to balance her tough side (killer) with her sexuality and her motherly ways. The book ends with a rebuilding, with a sense of peace, but a shadow hangs over it all in the final words, and the rest of the planet is pretty decimated, but there are survivors out there. I think Marcy had a major role in the novel, the whole way through, so just because it ended with them in a peaceful, pregnant, rebuilding mode, I certainly don't see Marcy as being a typical mother or just a vessel.

The old woman and the girl from the caves, yes, I liked that side story, and in the end I really didn't want to kill her, but that was Gordon's motivation, and for his character, it made sense. I think Eden was her name. Yes, I knew the connotations when I named her, it was intentional, and a metaphor for what Gordon wanted to happen to the island, to end this potential Eden.

I've done some other stories with women as the protagonist, "Transmogrify" which was in the vampire anthology and on the audio cd with the signed, limited of Transubstantiate, and also "Victimized" in Murky Depths 1/11. I'm still learning, and building on archetypes, but I enjoy it and certainly try to build well-rounded characters.

Thanks for the questions!

Hi. I’m new to the site and the workshop, and both have been great so far. I’ve been looking for a good book club to join too, so it’s cool to find this.

Richard, I ordered your book on Amazon last week –it came Saturday, and I wasn’t sure if I would finish in time to participate in this month’s discussion, but I have to say, I cracked it open on Sunday night and did not want to stop reading –I finished tonight and I really enjoyed your book.

It’s a cool story and it kept me engaged throughout. I also liked how I knew, pretty much, where everyone was (meaning on the island minus Jimmy) and why within the first 50 pages of the story, and yet it wasn’t spelled out so much, plus it was told through so many different points of view. It all worked really well for me.

Just to stay in the relevant conversation, the magical elements worked just fine for me as well, because Right –You make a great point about “if we can have teleportation…”

As a reader, I’m already suspending belief in the story itself as far as the state of the world, the island, these people and the program they’re involved in, the “powers” that X seems to have. So the animals and the cave weren’t any more far fetched than the rest of it.

You make your characters believable, though, speaking to emotions and thoughts. So I don’t know if that down-to-earth factor is where the whole “noir” factor comes in, or if it’s just because they’re all murderers, but I’m not an expert in noir so I’ll try to stay out of that whole topic. The story just read to me like good old fashioned sci-fi –but definitely through the eyes of people that I could relate to, and definitely through a style where the writing is as important as the story.

As far as questions, I’m confused as to whether X is Roland’s father, or Jacob? I thought at first it was revealed that Jacob was, but then reading on and finding out about X, I figured I had misread earlier on with regards to Jacob. But then at the end, when Roland’s closing out the story, he notices “something there” between his mother and Jacob, so that had me wondering? (Or maybe his older brother?)

I did notice some winks or shout outs to what seems to be the members of Write Club, earlier on when we’re introduced to Gordon, and then later on when letters are being exchanged.

Another question: Are there seven of you? Are the seven characters from Transubstantiate actually Write Club on an adventure?

What is the significance of jasmine? (again if this is also spelled out, my apologies as a reader –but I noticed the use of that word or description “jasmine” throughout?)

That’s about all I have for now. I don’t know if we’re allowed to ask technical questions or not, so my apologies ahead of time if not, but I write and I enjoy your writing style. “Nobody noticed the clipboard clattering to the ground. Its fall from the 16th floor could have killed someone, but it simply cracked in two, bits of fiberboard splintering, the requisition slips flying into the wind, drops of blood splattered over the ivory sheets.”

That kind of shit right there –it’s beautiful and dramatic and sadder to read almost than about someone dying –and it’s just a freakin’ clipboard!

My question: “bits of fiberboard” splintering, “requisition slips” flying into the wind –do you see these actual words/images or descriptive words in your mind during the initial writing or rough draft?

Do you know what I mean or is that a stupid question?

As a writer, and say this is my sentence, my mind reverts to “papers” into the wind –and then I’ll have to go back and try to think of a better way to get detailed, like you do with “requisition slips.” I’ll have the clipboard cracking in two, but then I’ll have go back when revising to come up with something like “bits of fiberboard.”

That’s just my mind, and then I’ll read a sentence like yours, and get discouraged because you make it look so easy, and I’m wondering if it is that easy for you, or if it’s normal to have to “work” at enhancing those kinds of scenes or descriptions.

Great, great scene –there’s lots of them. I did really enjoy this. By the way, my favorite character is Marcy. I know she’s supposed to be violent and you hear what the other characters think of her, but she has a lot of humanity if that makes any sense –a lot of depth, and she is not a one-dimensional character at all. Hated X –not because he’s not well-written, but he comes across as kind of a dick. Good characters. Thanks for the book.

That's what I get for posting early in the morning, I sound much more aggressive than I mean to! I just wanted to thrown in some questions that differ from the rest. I've read some of those other stories you mentioned (I think I commented on Victimised on the workshop, if I'm remembering the title correctly).

I've got the limited edition, but while I have read that extra chapter (and you're right, it expands her character a lot) I was judging the book without that, as I'm sure once they sell out, it's how most people would see Madison.

Marcy was a great femme fatale and I liked how you wrote her. It's why I wasn't too happy that it seemed she was then becoming just a new eve - there to reproduce. Perhaps I missed the strengthening relationship with X. I guess her relationship (or perceived lack of a healthy one) with Roland felt a little unresolved, to me, too.

I can imagine, once the end of the world happens, women could easily be reduced to a resource by the men, for sex or for reproduction.

@Claudelives - hey, that's awesome, your reaction is exactly what I wanted. Thanks so much for the support, glad you enjoyed it. To your questions:

*********************SPOILERS*******************************

X is Roland's father. He visits Marcy early in the novel, and later makes some comments that confirm that. He also passes on some of his abilities.

Seven - ha, I don't think the seven is based on seven people in WC, it's more based on the seven deadly sins, and then my format of writing this book was a new sub-chapter every day, so seven days a week, it just worked out that way.

Glad you picked up on the jasmine. Early on I did some research on herbs and flowers, spices and things like that, what would grow on a tropical island, and then got into research about what you can use to ward off demons or bad spirits, ghosts, other entities. If my memory serves me correctly I believe that Zen Buddhist munks used jasmine to keep spirits away from the temples. So it is grounded in fact, and that was an early (and repeated) indication that X is more than what we see, more than human. So I used the jasmine to TRAP X in his house, on that parcel of land. Who trapped him? Well, you should know the answer to that.

*********************SPOILERS*******************************

Thanks for the kind words on my style and that clipboard bit. That's a great example you pull out, and the way I like to be subtle sometimes, not show you the gore (although I do sometimes) but the scene just off to the side, let you fill in the blanks. Thank you.

As for what I see. That's a great question. Usually when it is flowing, the words, it's almost like I'm looking through a camera, a lens, seeing the scene unfold. When I know I have it captured right, it stays. If it doesn't work, I stop, go back, or cut it later. But when it is WORKING I usually don't edit much, I know the words I want and when I find them, I know it is right. Kind of like that Terminator movie where Arnold is scrolling through his appropriate responses, scanning the back of his eyelids to pick the right phrase to say. As I'm writing, I'm just trying to get the scene down on paper, and I know what words I like, what is an obvious choice, what is a better word, I try not to always use the easiest choice. Make sense at all?

Glad you liked Marcy, I did too. I always worry about my women, that I miss something obvious, things a typical woman wouldn't say or do. That's probably why my women aren't usually "normal" so I can get away with more. X is kind of a dick, so good call.

Thanks again, ask me anything, glad to have you in here, and I appreciate your support.

Keep an eye out for Shivers VI in December, my story "Stillness" will be in there, I wrote it here at the Cult in a Clevenger intensive. It's one of my favorite stories that I've written. You'd probably dig it. Stephen King and Peter Straub are in this collection, so I'm really excited, big break for me. Lettered and limited editions already sold out.

Link: http://www.cemeterydance.com/page/CDP/PROD/chizmar15

No worries, not at all, I understand where you are coming from. It wasn't my intention to imply that she had been reduced to a baby maker, but I think the way the story ended, after the big scene at the end, the Epilogue, it was very calm, and serene, and I saw a peaceful relationship between Marcy and X and Roland, a chance now to be more domestic, to improve their relationships as they rebuild. Kind of like when an assassin on a tv/movie "retires" and has a family, trying to be normal, and usually get dragged back in. I'll see what happens if there is a part two. And I'll for sure keep your comments in mind.

Good comments, and I hope that with my future work, I'll only get better at all of these things. Thanks for the support.

Sorry, I had to.

***********************SPOILERS*****************************

...and some people do, but the dials on the arch in the cave are hard to figure out, Marcy bumped the arch once and it sent her to Bast, the white snow beast, who almost ate her - also, there isn't much to teleport TO, the real world is post-apocalyptic, and nobody on the island really knows that (X and Assigned do, as does Gordon)

not everyone knew about the archway in the cave either, and even when they did find them (Marcy and Roland), they couldn't control them, Roland shot to the fire ring, etc.

X has the most control, and in fact, can "leave" his house/property through several different portals, that were left there for him; he is also able to mentally transport himself to different times and places, but can't seem to walk around his own island - it's complicated, but imagine if you had a portal in your basement and it could take you to Mars, but all you wanted to do was walk down the street to see your son, after you'd been divorced, but couldn't do that, were trapped in your own house...that would suck

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it all made sense when i wrote it

Right. It read that way to me, where things pretty much suck off the island, which is what Jimmy finds out. And everyone else on the island is under the assumption that it's paradise, and as far as the ones that were figuring out in their heads that maybe it wasn't and started getting curious, well that's when the story starts....

bingo...winner, winner chicken dinner (i love saying that)

Well since you're in the joking mood...

That little Terminator analogy? I mean it's brilliant, seriously, and just that alone helped me understand the process going on in your head, but Do know that from here on out, say when I recommend your books or talk about them to someone, you're no longer Richard Thomas. You're Richard "The Terminator" Thomas. ahahaha

"What's it called?"
"Transubstantiate. By Richard Thomas."
"That's a crazy name. Is it good?"
"Very."
"Yeah? He's a good writer?"
"He's the fu#$ing Terminator."

ahahaha

"I'm sorry, son. What did say the name of the book is?"
"Disintegration. By Richard Thomas."
"Well let's see... No. We don't seem to have that in stock yet. Is he a well-known author?"
"I'm sorry, ma'am? Yes. Absolutely. He's the fu#$ing Terminator." ahahahah

I love it. When you said that, I immediately saw the red screen that Arnold sees with all the words flashing to hell and back. ahahaha Then I wasn't so envious of your talent anymore -I was like, "Poor guy. That's a lot of words to choose from." ahahah

Good stuff. Okay. 2 Questions -1st one: What IS Marcy’s connection to Jacob? I kind of went back and reread some parts –but I know I’m missing something. At the end, Roland says, “And once they took a walk and were gone for a long time. They came back in his Mustang and didn’t say much.” To me on first read, I think they just fooled around and I’m reading into their relationship too much, but it’s a scene before that throwing me off where Roland also says he’s surprised “to see my mother weeping” when Jacob is killed temporarily. I remember something subconsciously earlier on in the story, or maybe I don’t? I thought it might in the scene where X brings everyone together at the bonfire, but I didn’t find my answer there.

2nd question: your bio in the back of the book mentions “workshop moderator at The Cult” –does that mean you’ll be teaching any intensives or enrollments any time soon? (or did I miss that?)

Thanks again for your time.

hahahahahha...I'LL BE BACK

***************************SPOILERS*****************************************

Marcy is a woman who has made some bad choices in her life. She is drawn to bad men, and has a bad relationship with her father, so Jacob is a big brother, father figure. She's trying to be a good girl, a better person, trying to change, to transubstantiate. So when Jacob gets hurt, she saves his life, and there is a bond there. At the end, no, there isn't anything romantic, it's just that feeling you get when you go through something as a group, that special bond of survival.

***************************SPOILERS*****************************************

Yes, I'm a workshop moderator, which was a lot more work and involvement when we were doing submissions for the Chuck anthology, reading about 100-130 stories a month. Now it's more sitting back, watching, making sure things are going okay. There are several of us here - KC, Kabol and Brandon, we're all mods, with VP at the top of that whole pyramid. He's brilliant as well, his classes, I'm sure they are fantastic. I haven't been approached about teaching here, I certainly don't feel I'm at that level, like Clevenger, Monica Drake, Max Barry, etc. that have done intensives here (that I took) or SGJ or WCB, I'm not nearly that established. I'm still learning, growing. I just started teaching some Creative Writing Basics classes in adult continuing education here in Chicago, and a workshop too, but I don't know if I'm at the level where the Cult would like me to teach anything. I would love to do it, at some point, if it was about something I thought I was good at. I'd love to teach about setting, senses, the whole mood and tone thing that is prevalent in neo-noir fiction, that's a pretty big part of my writing, how to reveal character through that. Maybe some day when I'm more established. I'm still pretty unknown. But I love The Cult, they've been very supportive, and I'd love to teach something here some day.

Thanks for the questions. I appreciate your support.

Hey Richard.

I finally read this and wanted to drop you some thoughts. Presumably the mods would rather I resurrect this thread than start a new one.

Generally, I really enjoyed the book. It's impressive in it's scope, I had read a little about the concept before I started but was still surprised at how much you managed to get into the story for what is quite a low page count. I read it pretty quickly (over two evenings) and came away with a kind of shell shock feeling, so much happening, so much speculation. It was a wild ride.

X was my favorite character. The initial ambiguity about his motives, the glimpses of his power, the very visual scenes of him travelling around, particulalry visiting Bast, all added up nicely. He is very much the lynchpin for the story IMO.

I was intrigued by this character. Where did this guy come from? Did you know from the start that you wanted this supernatural, hyper evolved being who can manipulate the fates of the other characters? Or did you discover him along the way, was he a more mundane character to begin with before you realised he could go nuclear?

I'd like to throw my two cents in for the discussion of the rolling perspective.

I think this worked for the majority of the time. Once we got moving it was great, it did a good job of conveying the feeling that many of these things were going off simultaeneously. This answer you gave in that 3am interview covers this.

Richard Thomas: When I realized that this was going to be seven first person perspectives, I knew that I had two choices: I could write each person, Jacob or Marcy or Assigned, in these long passages, maybe two to three thousand words, and really dig deep into them or I could write short bursts of 500 to 700 words at a time. It came down to a couple of things.

I was concerned that if I wrote it more like The Stand by Stephen King or other epic novels, that by the time you got back to the first character, in this case, Jacob, so much time would have passed, maybe 15,000 or 30,000 words, that you’d have forgotten where the story started, and who that person was. It also would have forced the story to move forward in these huge chunks, and I didn’t want that.

I think you were right to take this approach.

However.

The effect only really worked once I had my teeth into the characters. It made the later chapters flow perfectly, especially when the characters started to come together. Early on though it was a little confusing. A couple of times I had to flick back and remind myself which characters had done certain things.

So I think the first couple of chapters should have been a little longer, that way I'd have a better grip on all these distinct voices before you dropped into the lighting pace. Once we were underway it was fine though.

Tiny bugbear, the scene in the bookshop where Jacob recommends Chuck P and the Velvet guys, this broke the immersion in the story for me. The easter egg name drops amongst minor characters was one thing (and I'm not saying it's bad to offer out credit where credit is due) but you acknowledged the influence these guys had in the intro, slowing the story down to give out props seemed to be going a little far. Really it's just a hang up for me, I don't like it when authors drop band names or the like either, things like that pull my attention off of the story.

So yeah, overall man I enjoyed this. I'm looking forward to your next book.

Thanks so much for reading the book, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Let me see if I can address some of your comments and questions.

X. When I originally wrote his passage, he was this random demon, chasing a girl down the stairs and into the street, to her death. This was the first assignment by Max Barry for my intensive here. At that point I had a picture of him in my head. And he changed. He went from being purely evil to being a man (or more than a man) with abilities that he certainly abused at times, but having been put on this island, basically locked down, by a larger power, it humbled him. He changed (or, transubstantiated you might say). Physically I always pictured him as a mix between The Rock and Rodrigo Santoro as Xerxes in 300. I grew to like him, when I saw that he had a son (Roland) and wasn't as dark as I thought he might be. That role, the darker one, was taken over by Gordon, who also had a change of heart at the last minute. Assigned would be the truly evil presence in the book, I think.

As far as general fantastic elements, that just kind of evolved out of the story. Bast was something I never intended, she just changed, and became more, as I did research. I didn't want her to just be a yeti or something. I like those aspects, the portals, the abilities, but I didn't want Heroes, either.

The pacing. I hear you. I knew it was a risk no matter what I did. So I TRIED to do things to differentiate between the seven. Assigned is the only computer, Roland the only boy and Marcy the only primary woman (next to Madison). So that leaves X, who I think stands out, and Jimmy, who is the only one back on the mainland. I'd hoped between the remaining characters, Gordon (the killer) and Jacob (the fool) there was enough to separate them. I could have used more diversity for sure. I thought about giving Jimmy a slight accent, but it just came off too hick.

The name drops in the bookshop, yes, I hear what you're saying. You're probably right. For those that aren't familiar with them, I figured they'd pass right over it, but to those that know, it probably did interrupt the flow. It's my first book, and I'm still learning, so I may not do something that deliberate again.

My next book is Disintegration, and I'm shopping it right now. I have a sample chapter up at my blog if you want a peek:

http://whatdoesnotkillme.com/2009/06/16/disintegration/

Thanks for the support, means a lot. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Peace,
Richard

I can't freakin' wait for Disintegration. Richard, quick question about that -so it's completely finished and you're just trying to get it out to the public in the best way possible, right? So do you foresee it coming out in 2011, or 12?

Transubstantiate and Knockemstiff are some stand out novels that I've read in the last couple of years, and Donald Ray Pollock's follow-up The Devil All The Time comes out this year in July! So if Richard's book and Clevenger's 3rd came out too within the next year? Will be a great year for books.

Thanks, Nathan. Yes, it's "done" for now. It's sitting with an agent right now. He works at the same agency as the agent that signed Gayle Towell. She's been in the Cult workshop, and also in Write Club. He approached me after she signed, a couple months ago, and I finally sent of Disintegration a couple weeks ago. I'm sure he'll have some edits, they'll want to make some changes, and then we'll start shopping it around, if he takes me on. I'd expect 2012 at the earliest. But I hope it comes out next year. Really, I just hope he signs me and we have a fruitful relationship, and I can get this book to a larger publisher. OWP is great, but the mistakes and pains that I've gone through, in the end, I think it hurt the book a lot. I love those guys, and maybe in time they'll grow and I'll publish with them again, but I'm trying to go bigger.

Thanks for the kind words, Nathan.

Thank you for the response to my post Richard.

I think it's great that you took a hands on approach in this book club thread. I imagine it would have been a hell of a lot easier for you to just sit back and let the discussion go on without you.

Kudos,

Oh yeah and that preview of Disintergration is sweet, you do the grimy noir voice very well.

Thanks so much WVD. Appreciate all of that, really. I'm excited about Disintegration, I think it's my best work yet.

There's so much going on here that I need to read this again soon to fully "get" the characters. Thta's a good thing.

Don't publish the next one too soon or I'll be hopelessly lost. ;P

well, thanks tuffy, that's quite a compliment - don't worry, Disintegration is not part 2 of this, something very different, i may someday continue Transubstantiate, but not for awhile