Nihilism/Less Than Zero

[I]Twelve[/I] by Nick McDonell is the first book that comes to mind as something similar to Less Than Zero. And it's a good book too, I think.

There's also [I]The Catcher in the Rye[/I] (superior to both in many ways), but that's basically the opposite of nihilistic. I guess the similarity stems from the fact that it too is about detachment.

You could even go for Kafka ([I]The Trial[/I], for example), but I don't think that's very comparable to [I]Less Than Zero[/I].

Otherwise I'd say you take a look at [I]Rules of Attraction[/I] by Bret Easton Ellis, if you haven't already.

I had the chance to meet Ellis about a year ago. If he is ever in a bookstore near you, take the chance and sit in on his lecture. He is an incredibly fascinating man. He said that after he finished Less Than Zero, the editor told him he was nuts. Apparently, the book as much as 1,000 pages too long.

I like Tom Robbins too. Still Life with a Woodpecker is a sort of love story with all sorts of other conflicts. It is a great read as his other books are as well. This particular book is so off the course and questions so many aspects of life that I think it is by far his most nihilistic of all. Check him out...I guarantee Still Life with a Woodpecker is a good read.

[QUOTE=stoyan][I]Twelve[/I] by Nick McDonell is the first book that comes to mind as something similar to Less Than Zero. And it's a good book too, I think.

There's also [I]The Catcher in the Rye[/I] (superior to both in many ways), but that's basically the opposite of nihilistic. I guess the similarity stems from the fact that it too is about detachment.

You could even go for Kafka ([I]The Trial[/I], for example), but I don't think that's very comparable to [I]Less Than Zero[/I].

Otherwise I'd say you take a look at [I]Rules of Attraction[/I] by Bret Easton Ellis, if you haven't already.[/QUOTE]

Read Catcher In The Rye, I liked it reminded me of As Good As It Gets haha.

I love Kafka(Czech reprsent woot woot haha) Metamorphises.

I still have to get Rules of Attractions,The Informers,Lunar Park,all of them except for Zero and Psycho.

[B]The Stranger[/B]by Albert Camus also had that feel distinct feel you both were speaking of in regards to Catcher in the Rye and Ellis.

[QUOTE=inkpen78]...I like Tom Robbins too. Still Life with a Woodpecker is a sort of love story with all sorts of other conflicts. It is a great read as his other books are as well. This particular book is so off the course and questions so many aspects of life that I think it is by far his most nihilistic of all. Check him out...I guarantee Still Life with a Woodpecker is a good read.[/QUOTE]
While I appreciate any and all nods to Tom Robbins and [I]Still Life...[/I] I have to wonder if all of the books mentioned have less to do with the philosophy of nihilism and are actually more "coming of age" tales.

For "philosophy of nihilism" kind of prose Beckett comes to mind, though I have to admit I haven't read almost anything by him.

[QUOTE=moe.ron]While I appreciate any and all nods to Tom Robbins and [I]Still Life...[/I] I have to wonder if all of the books mentioned have less to do with the philosophy of nihilism and are actually more "coming of age" tales.[/QUOTE]
Exacto! youthfull discontent and boredom, teen angst au gogo!!

[QUOTE=stoyan]For "philosophy of nihilism" kind of prose Beckett comes to mind, though I have to admit I haven't read almost anything by him.[/QUOTE]
Becket is more existential than nillistic, there are a lot of distinctions. Granted nihilism pulls from existentialism, especially when it comes to the "meaning of life." A key difference is that existentialism is a pure philosophy, where nihilism is more of action directed towards some movement. That's how I've understood it. But yeah, I recommend Beckett regardlesss.
[QUOTE]Samuel Beckett primarily focuses on the themes of existentialism, death, and absurdism. The goal of absurdist drama is not solely to depress audiences with negativity, but an attempt to bring them closer to reality and help them understand their own "meaning" in life, whatever that may be. [B][I]Samuel Beckett's understanding of this philosophy best characterizes how we should perceive our existence as he says, "Nothing is more real than Nothing."[/I][/B] The widespread idea, fostered by the popular press, that Beckett's work is concerned primarily with the sordid side of human existence, with tramps and with cripples who inhabit trash cans, is a fundamental misconception. He dealt with human beings in such extreme situations not because he was interested in the sordid and diseased aspects of life but because he concentrated on the essential aspects of human experience. [B][I]The subject matter of so much of the world's literature--the social relations between individuals, their manners and possessions, their struggles for rank and position, or the conquest of sexual objects--appeared to Beckett as mere external trappings of existence, the accidental and superficial aspects that mask the basic problems and the basic anguish of the human condition. The basic questions for Beckett seemed to be these: How can we come to terms with the fact that, without ever having asked for it, we have been thrown into the world, into being? And who are we; what is the true nature of our self? What does a human being mean when he says "I"[/I][/B]?[/QUOTE]

Most people who claim themselves to be nihilists actually mean existentialist. Nihilism is caring about absolutely nothing, including ones own pain or pleasure. Whether or not a nihilist would really have the urge to destroy things is questionable, some people say that it's the only thing that a nihilist would do but I don't see why that would be.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]Most people who claim themselves to be nihilists actually mean existentialist. Nihilism is caring about absolutely nothing, including ones own pain or pleasure. Whether or not a nihilist would really have the urge to destroy things is questionable, some people say that it's the only thing that a nihilist would do but I don't see why that would be.[/QUOTE]
That's where I see existentialism breaking off. It isn't so much, not caring, just realizing that we are not a thing, not our past memories or future aspirations. We're not the destination or object we're trying to get to. Look at NOTHING, as NOT a THING. So for me it's not so much not caring, it's more that we are what we are now. BEING is the immediate. Oh! I suggest THE PAINTED BIRD and BEING THERE by Jerzy Kosiński.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]Most people who claim themselves to be nihilists actually mean existentialist. Nihilism is caring about absolutely nothing, including ones own pain or pleasure. Whether or not a nihilist would really have the urge to destroy things is questionable, some people say that it's the only thing that a nihilist would do but I don't see why that would be.[/QUOTE]

Actually, in the larger sense, nihilism can also mean a type of extreme scepticism/disbelief of the established order, or a tendancy towards anarchy.

Either way, I don't see Tom Robbins as a nihilistic author at all.

So what exactly is the difference between extenialism and nihilism?
isn't nihilism the believe that life is without meaning "we live,we die,that's it"?

[QUOTE=Wikipedia][B]Nihilism [/B]is a philosophical position which argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally believe all of the following: There is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creator, a "true morality" is unknown, and secular ethics are impossible; therefore, life has no truth, and no action is known to be preferable to any other.

[B]Existentialism [/B]is a philosophical movement that is generally considered a study that persues meaning in existence and seeks value for the existing individual. Existentialism, unlike other fields of philosophy, does not treat the individual as a concept, and values individual subjectivity over objectivity. As a result, questions regarding the meaning of life and subjective experience are seen as being of paramount importance, above all other scientific and philosophical pursuits. Existentialism often is associated with anxiety, dread, awareness of death, and freedom. Famous existentialists include Sartre, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Camus, and Heidegger.[/QUOTE]

Ha, and - I win:
[QUOTE=wikipedia]The works of Samuel Beckett, especially the play Waiting for Godot, exhibit elements of nihilsm. This play has subsequently been made into a cinematic film which visually deals with the more pessimistic and cynical aspects of nihilism.[/QUOTE]

hahaha! BUT, but, but, THAT"s [COLOR=Red]wikipedia[/COLOR]! Well, I don't fold, yet. I wish i could pull my copy of Sartre's [I]Being and Nothingness [/I]out, unfortunately it's in another country.

I don't deny the two pull from each other. I'm just saying they're not synonymous, there are distinctions that divide the two. You're dealing with philosophy. And when it comes to philosophy and religion there are so many bitty itty distinctions that make up dividing branches that no one is completely identical. I know I'm getting the anal semantics of it, but existentialism was one of my focuses in undergraduate and we had this same argument. Also nihilism gets into postmodern theory, and my GOD! They're are so many angles people take on postmodernism.

Anyway, that's wikipedia! We need Sartre.
OH!
another suggestion, one of my FAVS: Jean-Paul Sartre's [I][B][COLOR=Lime]Nausea[/COLOR][/B][/I] and [B][I][COLOR=lime]No Exit [/COLOR][/I][/B](a play).

also, ANYTHING by Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

You should vatch Ze Big Lebowski. Yah. Or ve'll cut off your johnson.

And then fix the cable...?

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]That's where I see existentialism breaking off. It isn't so much, not caring, just realizing that we are not a thing, not our past memories or future aspirations. We're not the destination or object we're trying to get to. Look at NOTHING, as NOT a THING. So for me it's not so much not caring, it's more that we are what we are now. BEING is the immediate. Oh! I suggest THE PAINTED BIRD and BEING THERE by Jerzy Kosiński.[/QUOTE]

It's virtually the same thing. I'm not sure what book it was in but Nietzsche wrote that for a person to feel any physical pleasure or discomfort they would have to be aware of another time, either the past or the future where they might feel different. Either that, or they would have to believe in the illusion of human choice, that what they are experiencing could have turned out differently. If you believe that being is the immediate, then how can you care about what will happen, or what should happen?

[QUOTE=Rents]You should vatch Ze Big Lebowski. Yah. Or ve'll cut off your johnson.[/QUOTE]
WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING CRYBABIES??

this is so nice, a philosophical discussion here in the Book Club

[QUOTE=moe.ron]WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING CRYBABIES??

this is so nice, a philosophical discussion here in the Book Club :)[/QUOTE]yeah i wish i knew something about all that so's I could join in!

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]
another suggestion, one of my FAVS: Jean-Paul Sartre's [I][B][COLOR=Lime]Nausea[/COLOR][/B][/I] and [B][I][COLOR=lime]No Exit [/COLOR][/I][/B](a play).

[/QUOTE]
i saw a performance of No Exit a couple years ago. It was at the Stratford festival where every year they have big Shakespeare productions. We had a gift certificate and instead of using it for Shakespeare, we chose Sartre. Good choice. Then last year i found a copy of No Exit used for $.50. :biggthump

[QUOTE=morey]yeah i wish i knew something about all that so's I could join in![/QUOTE]

So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

Oh yeah, I say we take this mother over and turn it into a Big Lebowski quoting thread.

I am not really sure that the reader was looking for books on the philosophy of nihilism. If this is the case then he needs to start with Nietzsche of course. I agree that Tom Robbins is more of a beat generation writer and probably could care less about the philosophy nihilism, I just thought it would be a fun read for someone who enjoys books like Less Than Zero. Not to knock your comment, I just think the original thread writer should have been a little more clear of what he was looking for in his adventure.

[QUOTE=ralphthompsonxxx]And then fix the cable...?[/QUOTE]

You mean....coitus.

[QUOTE=inkpen78]I am not really sure that the reader was looking for books on the philosophy of nihilism. If this is the case then he needs to start with Nietzsche of course. I agree that Tom Robbins is more of a beat generation writer and probably could care less about the philosophy nihilism, I just thought it would be a fun read for someone who enjoys books like Less Than Zero. Not to knock your comment, I just think the original thread writer should have been a little more clear of what he was looking for in his adventure.[/QUOTE]
Tom Robbins is as much of a Beat Generation writer as he is a nihilist. Honestly, I'm at a loss to find the connection between [I]Still Life...[/I] and, say, [I]Howl[/I] from a literary standpoint... I mean, unless you're talking about drug use. In that case, something like [I][URL=http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=24372]Angel Dust Apocalypse[/URL][/I] was written by a beatnik.

[QUOTE=moe.ron]WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING CRYBABIES??
this is so nice, a philosophical discussion here in the Book Club :)[/QUOTE]
Hey now, aren’t they the SAME:D? Doesn’t good literature [I]always [/I]revolve around sound philosophy?
[QUOTE=marsjams13]i saw a performance of No Exit a couple years ago. It was at the Stratford festival where every year they have big Shakespeare productions. We had a gift certificate and instead of using it for Shakespeare, we chose Sartre. Good choice. Then last year i found a copy of No Exit used for $.50. :biggthump[/QUOTE]
Someone here goes to plays! YA! Yeah, [I]No Exit[/I] is brilliant, it inspire a produced play of mine. I’ll also suggest a slew of Beckett’s plays for either watching, reading, eating, thinking, sleeping, or all at once: [I]Krapp's Last Tape, Act Without Words I & II, Waiting for Godot, Endgame, Happy Days, A Piece of Monologue, All That Fall, and Eh Joe[/I].

Actually anything by Becket is worth the time, those just happen to be favorites.

i've read [I]Waiting for Godot [/I]and [I]Happy Days [/I]but that's it. i'll probably avoid [I]eating[/I] any of the others though, mostly because, well, paper is constipating.
In the same vein though, i also enjoyed Harold Pinter's works [I]The Dumb Waiter [/I]and [I]The Caretaker[/I], and a little less related Edward Albee's [I]The Zoo Story.[/I] They all deal with similar themes of waiting, or of unfufilled expectations. In some ways these same themes are picked up in movies like cube/cube zero.

i saw a production of The Zoo Story at my university a few years back that blew me away.

i don't get many opportunities to go to plays nowadays, but i'm sure i haven't been to my last one.

Eat fruit.
I've read those by Pinter and saw [I]Betrayal[/I], one of the first successful time distortion plays. I've never heard of Albee's [I]The Zoo Story [/I]so thanks for the tip. If you want flat out absurdity check out Eugène Ionesco's [I]Rhinoceros[/I].

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]Hey now, aren’t they the SAME:D? Doesn’t good literature [I]always [/I]revolve around sound philosophy?:)[/QUOTE]

In a way, yep, I agree totally.

[QUOTE=benjamin_anderson]You mean....coitus.[/QUOTE]

Well... yeah... to use the parlance of our times.

What would you guys consider Crime and Punishment to be?
I really like that book,anyone other Dyodor you could recomend

[QUOTE=Kakumei!]What would you guys consider Crime and Punishment to be?
I really like that book,anyone other Dyodor you could recomend[/QUOTE]

I don't consider Dostoyevsky a nihilist writer, though some of his characters have nihilistic tendencies, for what that's worth.

[B]Notes From Underground[/B], [B]The Brothers Karamozov[/B], & [B]The Idiot[/B], to name three, are well-worth reading. Tough, but good. Maybe. Dostoyevsky isn't for a lot of people... But eh, give them a try.

Alright.
Hey have you heard Protest The Hero,they're like a meta/posthardcore band that uses some Dostoy references but not in a Panic at the disco to chuck way,these guys are acually good.

nietzsche is not a nihilist ; he is an existentialist: you should be more aware when you read something

[QUOTE=Raskolnikov]nietzsche is not a nihilist ; he is an existentialist: you should be more aware when you read something[/QUOTE]

No one said he was, you should pay more attention when you read something.

inkpen78 said that. im not trying to be mean or something like that but i wanted to say it cuz nietzsche is like AGAINST nihilism

[QUOTE=Raskolnikov]inkpen78 said that. im not trying to be mean or something like that but i wanted to say it cuz nietzsche is like AGAINST nihilism[/QUOTE]

No, he said that Nietzsche wrote about nihilism.

I was reading about Nietzsche's philosophy the other day and I found one particular concept very interesting, the idea of a 'Master Morality' and the 'Slave Morality'. The master morality was the morality of the ancient Greeks and Romans, it's all about personal excellence, whereas the slave morality develops in opposition to the master morality and is focused on herd attitudes. The slave morality spread through Europe along with Christianity because they were oppressed by the Romans.

yeah i've read about those mentality in his book but i didn't know the point you've made, interesting one.

and the master morality is now running throughout the world by globalisation and capitalism concept...bah this is too serious and nietzsche does not spread the idea of domination even though no one said that and sorry for "my" english

[QUOTE=Kakumei!]Alright.
Hey have you heard Protest The Hero,they're like a meta/posthardcore band that uses some Dostoy references but not in a Panic at the disco to chuck way,these guys are acually good.[/QUOTE]
I actually saw Protest the Hero open for The Bled and although I wasn't listening close enough for a Dostoy reference, I did hear the lead singer make fun of Panic at the Disco.

Ok we'll who's a good philsopher on Nihilism then? Any writings of them you can recomend?
Since it's been established that Nietzche is obvious not.

[QUOTE=Kakumei!]Ok we'll who's a good philsopher on Nihilism then? Any writings of them you can recomend?
Since it's been established that Nietzche is obvious not.[/QUOTE]

Céline is fairly close... but not really.

Haha anyone that's not anti-semetic?

[QUOTE=Kakumei!]Ok we'll who's a good philsopher on Nihilism then? Any writings of them you can recomend?
Since it's been established that Nietzche is obvious not.[/QUOTE]

Nietzche is a good philospopher on nihilism, it's just he wasn't one himself. Few philosophers claim to be nihilists.

Thank you for taking up for me mikeandrewz...

I never once said Nietzsche was a nihilist...Everyone should read the threads a little more clearly.

I was merely suggesting to start learning more about views of nihilism. Nietzsche is probably one of the more interesting views (i.e. the Anti-Christ)

hey inkpen78: I've read your posts pretty clearly and I'm still waiting for further clarification on your assesment of Tom Robbins as a Beat writer.

Hey moe.ron....I definitely did not express that comment correctly....Tom Robbins is more of a beat inspired writer...not that he wrote the same content as beat writers like Keuorac, he wrote stylistically the same. I am sorry. I went back and re-read my post and saw the confusion in the matter. I was not looking past the Nietzsche comments...I apologize for the confusion. I hope this answers your question.

I suppose it does...but I couldn't disagree more

yeah sorry ink i didnt read it well...its true in a way that nietzsche wrote about nihilism

Ok today I just bought Thus Spoke Zarathustra and I get the main plot (kinda God Is Dead and Man needs to be come the Superman?) but it he talks so confusing.
Anyone want to help break it down for me?

[QUOTE=stoyan;844774]For "philosophy of nihilism" kind of prose Beckett comes to mind, though I have to admit I haven't read almost anything by him.[/QUOTE]

Fun how you should mention beckett here, I was at a reading of GUTS by Chuck in Galway and some drunken heckler stood up and told Chuck that [I]I would rather read Beckett any day of the week than listen to you, why dont you fuck off back to America![/I]