James Frey in GQ
[QUOTE=mirka]Sure, the public gets lied to all the time, that doesn't mean they can't get upset about it when it happens again, right?
Memoir is a gray area, yes, However most people would agree that someone that [I]remembers [/I]facing an 8 year jail term when in fact they got a [I]ticket [/I]is fucking crazy or straight up lying.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying people shouldn't be upset. I just think that refunds go too far and set a bad precedent.
[QUOTE=moe.ron]why can't a heartbreaking memoir of addiction and recovery be entertainment?[/QUOTE]
It can, of course. But how would you feel if it turned out Egger's parents didn't die. That he didn't really raise his brother, just had to babysit him a lot because both parents worked long hours?
[QUOTE=jase]I'm not saying people shouldn't be upset. I just think that refunds go too far and set a bad precedent.[/QUOTE]
I hear ya. I was just kind of thrilled that there was enough outrage that they issued a formal statement about it.
[QUOTE=mirka]It can, of course. But how would you feel if it turned out Egger's parents didn't die. That he didn't really raise his brother, just had to babysit him a lot because both parents worked long hours?[/QUOTE]
i still wouldn't give a shit, honestly. bad example, as i wasn't as wowed by that book as most others. i can see your point in that frey's "experience" gives others hope. i don't think that will change much, even if he is a big fat liar. i mean, cinderella gives me hope, ya know?
what does dave eggars have to do with anything, though. you said painful memories can't be entertaining to others, and i'd like to know why you think that.
[URL=http://www.canada.com/topics/entertainment/story.html?id=9b38302a-f86c-4faa-a805-dea925b3fc74&k=24980&p=1]supporting mirka's position[/URL]
[QUOTE=moe.ron]i still wouldn't give a shit, honestly. bad example, as i wasn't as wowed by that book as most others. i can see your point in that frey's "experience" gives others hope. i don't think that will change much, even if he is a big fat liar. i mean, cinderella gives me hope, ya know?
what does dave eggars have to do with anything, though. you said painful memories can't be entertaining to others, and i'd like to know why you think that.[/QUOTE]
I actually thought you had posted about Dave Eggers! I read 'heartbreaking' and hallucinated the rest of the post.
To answer your actual question, I do think a memoir about drug addiction and recovery can be entertaining. The point I was trying to make was that the book wasn't marketed as entertainment or art, but as a true story.
EDIT: I was at that point arguing whether Random House should be held responsible in any way. My issue with Frey is he's a liar and took a shortcut. Or as jase put it (perfectly) in an earlier post:
Fiction writers usually need to go to great lengths to establish a sense of reality, where they must tirelessly work to establish the audience's suspension of disbelief whether it's through head authority, heart authority, or painstaking special effects. Frey took a shortcut and just plain lied.
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I have a third of this book left. I'm torn on the controversy. I don't see his story as [I][B]extreme[/B][/I]. My mother wrote her own stories and they were a hell of a lot scarier, addiction crazed, and forsaken than frey's.
Mirka hits it though, making me rethink how I thought:
[QUOTE]Fiction writers usually need to go to great lengths to establish a sense of reality, where they must tirelessly work to establish the audience's suspension of disbelief whether it's through head authority, heart authority, or painstaking special effects. Frey took a shortcut and just plain lied.[/QUOTE]
By claiming it's a memoir the reader goes into it with the head of, "If a HUMAN can survive this then I can survive my own shit." The controversy does cut at the heart for me, taking away that immediate empathy I felt.. I told people what I enjoyed about it was that frey "lets go and is brutally honest." Guess i'm the ass on that one.
I want to hear what frey says. Did he make a statement?
[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]I have a third of this book left. I'm torn on the controversy. I don't see his story as [I][B]extreme[/B][/I]. My mother wrote her own stories and they were a hell of a lot scarier, addiction crazed, and forsaken than frey's.
Mirka hits it though, making me rethink how I thought:
By claiming it's a memoir the reader goes into it with the head of, "If a HUMAN can survive this then I can survive my own shit." The controversy does cut at the heart for me, taking away that immediate empathy I felt.. I told people what I enjoyed about it was that frey "lets go and is brutally honest." Guess i'm the ass on that one.
I want to hear what frey says. Did he make a statement?[/QUOTE]
I was quoting jase. He's the one that hit it. 
How do you think the book would stand up as a work of fiction? Is the writing any good or is the interest based on the empathy you mentioned.
[url=http://www.slushpile.net/]Slushpile[/url] has a bit of information about his appearence on Larry King.
[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]Mirka hits it though, making me rethink how I thought:[/QUOTE]
Hey, that was me... Not to grub for credit but I put the effort in to remain tactful and coherent...
[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]By claiming it's a memoir the reader goes into it with the head of, "If a HUMAN can survive this then I can survive my own shit." The controversy does cut at the heart for me, taking away that immediate empathy I felt.. I told people what I enjoyed about it was that frey "lets go and is brutally honest." Guess i'm the ass on that one.[/QUOTE]
Well, you're not the ass if Frey lied, now, are you? Just because you don't have TSG's resources doesn't make you gullible.
[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]I want to hear what frey says. Did he make a statement?[/QUOTE]
He was on Larry King but I only caught the morning snippets on the news. [URL=http://www.andrewsullivan.com]Andrew Sullivan[/URL] has an amusing summary if you scroll down through his blog. He also posts a link to this [URL=http://www.slate.com/id/2134203/]article from the Slate[/URL], with a very apt quote on the matter for which I'll save you the clickage:
[QUOTE=Seth Mnookin]. . . because A Million Little Pieces—one of the best-selling books about drug addiction ever written—has been trumpeted as an unflinching, real-life look into the world of a drug addict, it has helped to shape people's notions about drug abuse. Ironically, the very abundance of its clichés has likely helped make it a runaway best seller: [B]People, after all, like having their suspicions confirmed[/B]. For nonaddicts, [B]Pieces reinforces the still dangerously prevalent notion that it's easy to spot a drug addict or an alcoholic[/B]—they're the ones bleeding from holes in their cheeks or getting beaten down by the police or doing hard time with killers and rapists. For those struggling with their own substance-abuse issues, [B]Pieces sends the message that unless you've reached the depths Frey describes, you don't have anything to worry about—you're a Fraud[/B]. And if you do have a problem, you don't need to necessarily get treatment or look to others for support; all you need to do is "hold on." In building up a false bogeyman—the American recovery movement's supposed reliance on the notion of "victimhood"—Frey has set himself up as the one, truth-telling savior. In fact, it seems clear that [B]Frey would have been well-served by taking the kind of unflinchingly honest look at his own life that most recovery programs demand[/B]. [/QUOTE]
I think that it is sad that there even is this kind of argument. My opinion is, a memoir is not only a gray area it is a fucking wreck no matter who writes it or what they choose to write it about. I wrote my memoir once, of one day spent in high school and posted it in my blog. A day later I had thirty of my high school classmates refuting everything from what we wore that day to what we did. So yeah, it depends on what people remember. I think it's sad that The Smoking Gun "investigated" because honestly, wouldn't it be better not to know? After all, it is a story about addiction and getting over it. The important part is that he got over it? No? You may disagree but in my opinion, we are a sick society if it matters to us whether it is true or not.
It isn't like he lied about the fact that cigarettes cause cancer or that there is sugar in diet soda. Those two examples harm people. A memoir embellished, lied throughout or whatnot, is a different case.
And as for refunds, well that's plain dumb. Go sell your book or return it to the B&N you bought it from. Seriously.
Okay folks, a lesson in common sense:
You are the author of a wildly selling book, which you purported to be completely true, but evidence suggests otherwise despite what you claim to remember.
A very nasty but also hilarious website investigates your claims and calls you full of shit.
You blame drugs and stand behind your message. Oprah's got your back.
Your book is sold under the aura of philanthropy, a message to inspire and help the masses, but this damn website won't go away.
Take note, this website's mode d'emploi is to post any documents they can find to embarrass people.
What do you do?
Well, I'll tell you what you don't do:
[URL=http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jamesfrey/freysides/singerfrey1.html]You DO NOT sue the web site claiming that their story is going to cut into your profits, which requires you to send documentation of such facts, when you know god damned well they're going ot post the thing to make you look even dumber.[/URL]
Somewhere, a man named Robert Van Winkle is writing James Frey a thank-you note for taking his place in pop culture.
To me memoir means [I]as remembered[/I] i don't care if he fudged the shit and besides i know personally the a good 3/4 of my own adult life exists in black out and major fictionalizing would have to be done if i were to autobi, besides the emotional truth of life is far more real than [I]events[/I]. that said I've seen the guy on tv and find him whiny also i have no interest in reading another recovery book, those are written for civilians.
[QUOTE=mirka]I was quoting jase. He's the one that hit it.
How do you think the book would stand up as a work of fiction? Is the writing any good or is the interest based on the empathy you mentioned.[/QUOTE]
As I see it:
[I]Honesty [/I]in fiction is the author’s willingness to express their true voice artistically, the willingness to poke and prod at open sores regardless of how others will judge their work. Like your friend Will Christopher Baer...
[I]Honesty [/I]in nonfiction or memoir is just that, a “truth” closest to subjective experience. So it comes back to what Jase said, Frey lied betraying the pack he made with readers when he called it a memoir. Now I question the whole book, though I still believe he suffered greatly. He recounts certain details only an addict would know, so I still believe most of it is from the heart.
Would I have read this if it were marked as fiction? No. I’ve read enough fiction stories on addiction.
The subject matter does interest me regarding the human condition. I’ve seen many real life tragedies submersed in addiction and rehab, and that kind of human fall is something I’m very familiar with and tends to leak into my own stories. Point is I was drawn to the book because I took the writer on his word, that he was recalling incidents as true to his memory as he could. If he blatantly elaborated, he lied, and I do feel a stab at the collar bone.
The book wouldn’t stand as fiction. The writing isn’t really that dynamic or intriguing. It cares very little imagery. What carries is the [I][B]truth [/B][/I]of the author’s experiences, emotions and thoughts. It grabs my heart if I believe a HUMAN experienced all this pain and survived. So the controversy has shaken my want to finish the book and continue reading his stuff.
On a side note:
I find it odd that it’s categorized as:
Memoir/Literature
Like the two closely correspond. I always thought of literature as fiction.
BTW:
Everything is fiction.
I read the book because I had to know why everyone else read it. I didn't realize it was "true" until the end. When I saw the back cover. Either way, the writing sucked but the point was heavy and important whether it is HIS experience or not. Because a shitload of other people have that experience every fucking day.
[QUOTE=bssmokie]I read the book because I had to know why everyone else read it. I didn't realize it was "true" until the end. When I saw the back cover. Either way, the writing sucked but the point was heavy and important whether it is HIS experience or not. Because a shitload of other people have that experience every fucking day.[/QUOTE]
That's why the bible is so popular.
I suppose so.
Did someone say GQ?
I'm in the February 6 edition - in Britian.
Okay,
Father Luke
I never finished A Million Little Pieces. I thought the style was difficult, I just didn't think it was good writing. I could have guessed from the word go it was exaggerated but I expect that anyway, it's supposed to make entertainment. What bothers me more is this accusation of plagerism from that Little guy (from that article written by the very angry man), that's the worst thing, if it is indeed true.
I guess I've missed all the Oprah stuff where he told his pitiful little story and plugged his book a whole bunch with lies. It [i]is[/i] pathetic. But then I fail to see why so many people call him a great writer.
I still wanted to read My Friend Leonard since everyone said it was better than AMLP but I'm off the idea since I know the guy is pitiful faker. Making up a drug addiction is [i]so lame[/i], getting your mother to back you up on it is laughable.
i don't think anyone is arguing that he wasn't a drug addict. the smoking gun's report didn't question much of anything that happened in the treatment center. yeah, i understand if you can't trust all the other stuff in the book now, but saying that he made up his drug addiction is a little off base.
and if you didn't like the style of AMLP you won't like my friend leonard either. basically the same exact style, only with mob stories replacing rehab stories. it's also worth noting that there's a disclaimer at the beginning of my friend leonard stating that some details or sequences have been altered.
I think the drug addiction elements have to be called into question because of simple math. He claims that only 5% of the book is disputed, but that is the only part of the book that can be disputed. The rest is protected by doctor-patient confidentiality and the fact that all the characters are dead. How in the hell do you validate any of it? I am assuming that since 100% of the verifiable passages are a load of shit, so too is the rest of the book. That is the thing with liars - they lose the benefit of the doubt. I have to believe that he made up every last word. Frey was probably a rich kid frat boy with a drinking problem that couldn't get his attempt at writing the eight millionth drug addiction novel published, so he called it a memoir and the rest is history.
There are decent breakdowns of some of this stuff at jamesfreysucks.blogspot.com. Also, you should definitely check out that Seth Mnookin column at Slate (it was quoted above).
[IMG]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/fan/cw/allstars/ahoffBronze.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=moe.ron]meh...that guy's got a little too much snark about him to make me take notice. the author of the article, that is.[/QUOTE]
I finally read the two reviews and I agree. I don't like when critics attack the writer personally or with such intense rancor. Remember that Salon review of Diary, it's got that same kind of malevolence. this part made me laugh though:
[I]Here's the hymn to love with which he ends a chapter:
"I miss Lilly.
I miss Lilly.
I miss Lilly."
My reading of this passage is that he missed Lilly. But then I'm a trained literary critic. Other readers may have other, equally valid interpretations.[/I]
[QUOTE=jase][URL=http://us.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/books/01/11/arts.frey.reut/index.html]REFUNDS????[/URL]
I have a seriously hard time believing this.[/QUOTE]
[URL=http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=peopleNews&storyID=2006-01-13T215457Z_01_YUE378902_RTRIDST_0_PEOPLE-ARTS-FREY-DC.XML]CONSUMER FRAUD????[/URL]
It just gets more and more interesting.
[QUOTE=Father Luke]Did someone say GQ?
I'm in the February 6 edition - in Britian.
Okay,
Father Luke[/QUOTE]
What for? Article?
[QUOTE=mirka][URL=http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=peopleNews&storyID=2006-01-13T215457Z_01_YUE378902_RTRIDST_0_PEOPLE-ARTS-FREY-DC.XML]CONSUMER FRAUD????[/URL]
It just gets more and more interesting.[/QUOTE]
Fucking crazy. This must be why the refunds were offered. They saw this coming.
with all this hoodwinkery about, i feel compelled to come clean also
I am, in fact, Anne Rice and have been playing this little charade this whole time to get away from myself
Thanks to Karb and his trickiery, we all have the ability to sue the cult for making us believe everything that people put in front of us.
I knew I hated you for a reason Anne Rice. I think I'm going to sue you too now.
i know i was a terrible person and author, thats why i have been trying to re-invent myself to appease all you huddled masses
It's cool. I can't wait for your new book to come out - [b]Photocopies of the Bible[/b]
We're all rooting for you to make that one work.
Oprah sleeps with sAtan. But Two-FAced?, never would have guessed.:squintfin
[URL=http://articles.news.aol.com/tv/article.adp?id=20060125202909990033]Oprah Tells Frey He 'Betrayed' Readers[/URL]
"That [I]gobshite[/I]? Is he never off the air?"
[I]--Father Jack Hackett, circa 1995[/I]
[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]Oprah sleeps with sAtan. But Two-FAced?, never would have guessed.:squintfin
[URL=http://articles.news.aol.com/tv/article.adp?id=20060125202909990033]Oprah Tells Frey He 'Betrayed' Readers[/URL][/QUOTE]
ive got WAY too much on plate plate bookwise lately to even bother picking up his stuff
but is the concensus that its a good book, fact or fiction regardless, and worth reading ?
I think if you knew from the outset that this guy was lying, not just taking "artistic license", but lying, you'd spend most of the book thinking:
"Yeh right fake tough guy. [I]Sure[/I] you had dental work without anaesthetic, [I]sure[/I] you did! [I]Sure[/I] the mafia guy thinks you're the toughest guy he's ever met [I]sure[/I] he does! [I]Sure[/I] everyone thinks you're some kind of tragic James Dean gone drugged, [I]sure[/I] they do!" etc etc etc
It's a pretty powerful book, but it's hard to deny that at least some of what's compelling about it is the implicit understanding that most of this is true. So I probably wouldn't recommend it to anyone now.
His new book starts out:
"On my first day in jail, a three hundred pound man named Porterhouse hit me in the back of the head with a metal tray."
The guy has no shame.
this whole situation leaves me almost breathless in the way people are self-destructing upon learning the book is not a true memoir, the way frey at first denied the accusations and then rolled over like the big fucking pansy he is and the way oprah has thrown him under the bus.
i say we start a letter writing campaign to oprah winfrey demanding she cease and desist her attempts to further ruin the act of book reading and the writers thereof.
I don't know. Winfrey has done plenty of good with her book club, getting people reading again. She just got conned by Frey like a lot of people did.
i use that same arguement myself a lot of times in defending her book club because it's true...sometimes. however, a part of my heart shriveled up and died when she made a dog-and-pony show of east of eden. and now i have the same response to AMLP.
[QUOTE=moe.ron]i use that same arguement myself a lot of times in defending her book club because it's true...sometimes. however, a part of my heart shriveled up and died when she made a dog-and-pony show of east of eden. and now i have the same response to AMLP.[/QUOTE]
I don't know much about her book club except that she switched to 'classics' after that Franzen fracas a few years back. I'll always defend her just because she chose [B]1000 Acres [/B]by Jane Smiley, [I]that's [/I]a book that deserves to be read.
What was the dog and pony show of East of Eden?
just some of the discussions i've heard/engaged in about the book have been aggravating. it's been well documented that i'm a book snob, though.
[QUOTE=moe.ron]just some of the discussions i've heard/engaged in about the book have been aggravating. it's been well documented that i'm a book snob, though.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you're a snob, you're just picky! 
oh shit...i'd rather be a book snob! i really don't think i'm picky, though, i mean, i'll read anything. i'll just talk shit on those i don't like
[QUOTE=moe.ron]oh shit...i'd rather be a book snob! i really don't think i'm picky, though, i mean, i'll read anything. i'll just talk shit on those i don't like ;)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it was my little joke because your bf is a picky eater and you're a picky reader and it kinda rhymes and it's kinda cute.
I [I]try [/I]not to talk shit about bad books, I mean, I try to be reasonable and fair because it takes a lot to write a book, but sometimes I can't help it. Sometimes it enrages me the shit that gets published at the expense of other, better books that I just know are out there. Pretty much why I've been so interested in this Frey issue. His book is terrible, his style is so pompous and self-aggrandizing and I couldn't talk too much shit because it was a true story and it meant a lot to people. And now I can talk all the shit I want because he's a big fat LIAR!.
I watched part of him on Oprah last night, he still didn't wanna say why he conned people. At Least Oprah tore into him and the publisher for it. The publisher didn't have a good reaosn why the authenticity wasn't looked into in the first place.
[QUOTE=mr_hash]I watched part of him on Oprah last night, he still didn't wanna say why he conned people. At Least Oprah tore into him and the publisher for it. The publisher didn't have a good reaosn why the authenticity wasn't looked into in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Did he bring his mother with him on the show? (He brought her on that Larry King interview)
no, just him at first then the publisher was brought up too, then a couple of experts where brought up to talk about it. he didn't have support of anyone on that stage. Oprah made it pretty clear that she was upset that she and everyone else was conned into beleiving the story and didn't let him play any kind of sympathy card.
i'll tell you why he did it: he wanted to sell books!! it was shopped around as a novel and rejected several times. someone suggested he call it a memoir, maybe his agent? and BADDA-BING, shit's flying off the shelves.
oh I know that's why he did it, he just wont own up to it.
I guess someone is trying to sue him in a class action and they think that people should be compensated for the time it took them to read the novel. I think thats a little extreme. but I that people should be allowed to return the book to the publisher if they choose.
how is this news? oprah is such a manipulative hag. up there apologizing like she jeopardized national security or something. it's just a stupid book.
[QUOTE=big S]how is this news? oprah is such a manipulative hag. up there apologizing like she jeopardized national security or something. it's just a stupid book.[/QUOTE]
i agree. oprah is SO irritating. and I don't understand why people care so much about her? She is nothing special and she so does not deserve to be as rich and powerful as she is. And it is just a book. It doesn't really matter if he exaggerated a little bit. people do it all the time.
[QUOTE=jase]Yeah, but how many athletes, musicians, and other public figures do the same thing? The only reason people are so caught off guard is that unlike a celebrity, they have no pre-formed opinion about the guy, so they actually read it with an open mind. They got lied to just the same, just like an athlete denying steriod use or a model denying eating disorders or any other such thing.
MEMOIR is the key term - it's what someone chooses to remember. If you don't believe people can lie to themselves, then you've just lied to yourself.[/QUOTE]
Sure, the public gets lied to all the time, that doesn't mean they can't get upset about it when it happens again, right?
Memoir is a gray area, yes, However most people would agree that someone that [I]remembers [/I]facing an 8 year jail term when in fact they got a [I]ticket [/I]is fucking crazy or straight up lying.