Did anyone else NOT like Baer? *spoilers*

i'm about 120 pages into it now. it's not the best book, but i've read worse. i'll try to let you know more when i finally finish it.

Nope. Sorry, DZU and VD. One of the most bad-ass books I've ever read.

Okay, at first I was skeptical about that whole bring an urban legend to life aspect, but stolen kidneys? Even though it was written in 98. But as I got more into it, I realized that it wasn't about a kidney at all. It was a romance. It was about love, and betrayal (hence, "Kiss me, Judas"). It was about conflicting emotions and sorrow. It was about human mind and human emotion twisting and, ultimately, changing. As is our nature.

Not about an urban legend. This is a book about soul. This is a romance, like Fight Club is a romance.

And the writing is fantastic. And it gets better as you push forward, if you push forward. You might treat Baer as I treat Coupland and never touch a second book due to personal biases.

But to finally answer your question:

No, I doubt that you are the only person that didn't like [i]Judas[/i]. Personally, there are few books that I like more than [i]Hell's Half[/i], and [i]Judas[/i] and [i]Penny[/i] are at the top as well.

Or at least this is one person’s take, kind of the reason I liked it so much.

Kabol

I started it in the book store. the cover is really cool so I was thinkin it'd be great, but I couldn't get into it. Baers writing style is interesting, but I just couldn't get past the campiness. a guy falling for the thief who took his kidneys. it's like a campfire story to me, but not really a great work.

it'd make a good comic book I think. these kind of stories do, but not a novel.

Wow. I was hooked immediately, and the book never dissappointed me. Penny Dreadful and especially Hell's Half Acre (my favorite of the three) are also captivating books. It's not just about the surface plot, but the uncertainty of the character's (Poe) mind as he stumbles through the shambles of his life after the death (murder?) of his wife and his recent release from an asylum. It's like a drug-induced fog. Love or Revenge? Who know, who cares? Baer's writing is unique -- and I can see how some may not get into the groove. But once you do, its very addicting stuff.

i really liked the writing style, but it got too messy once it got into the second half; and, yes, the ending sucked. i'm glad i read it, there were some enjoyable parts, and most of the characters were interesting. but, wow, what a disappointing ending. i might still read the others, but not right away; i was planning to read them all in order but after the ending to KmJ i changed my mind.
i understand the point of the hallucinations, and they were pretty well written, but i just got lost. i tried to pay attention, i was even ready for it because JoeyJord, who is all about Baer, warned me it got confusing later on. i still wasn't sure about a few things that happened. also, i really just didn't get anything out of the book, i didn't find any redeeming values about the human spirit, and as far as betrayal is concerned, everybody was betraying everybody throughout the book so it was less like a lesson about betrayal and more a lesson about mean backstabbing people that all needed to die.

The only thing I like about it was the way his dreams mixed with reality. But even that was a little overdone I think. And so Penny dreadful - where is just more of the same, "what is really real" stuff just seems way too far over the edge. I know there was more to the book than the urban legend but the rest didn't make up for it.
It was a little predictable in the fact that EVERYONE dies that Jude may argue with.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]
it'd make a good comic book I think. these kind of stories do, but not a novel.[/QUOTE]
[URL=http://www.willchristopherbaer.com/community/showthread.php?t=146]*cough*[/URL]
Did someone say comic book?

Penny Dreadful was a two-day book for me... that's a book I like enough to finish in two days. Fucking incredible.

I have a bad habit of reading the second book first in a series with the same character... it happened to me with Papparazi Must Die.

I couldn't really get into Kiss Me, Judas. I haven't gone past chapter two.

[QUOTE=dzudzu]He wouldn't have lived anyway.[/quote]

Based on what assumption? I assure you, if done properly, removing a kidney and maintaining a healthy patient is very, very easy.

[QUOTE=dzudzu]And he wouldn't have liked that girl.[/quote]

While “like” (or “love” as some have used) isn’t exactly the word I’d use for their situation, I also see little validity in this assertion.
The world is a pretty whacky place, and I can easily believe this fixation Poe has. Much more than I buy some little love story about 2 people meeting, say, on the bloody Titanic and ‘falling in love’.

[QUOTE=dzudzu]The bad guy behind this whole thing is actually a sweet nice old guy.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm. Maybe. Doubtful.

But hey, some of us are going to dig different books, and that’s cool.
j(ay)
who does think the ending was a little week, but not too too bad.

maybe i've been reading too much stuff like chuck or dickens lately but i kept expecting everything to be connected somehow in the end and when it didn't happen i felt kind of cheated. it felt alot like that thing stephen king talked about, where he just got tired of a character or didn't know what to do with them so he killed them off to get them out of the way.
it was okay for a first try and if he makes as much improvement as chuck has then he might even become a pretty good writer, but it was not as great as everyone has been saying.

I guess my main disappointment was that it didn't even get close to any expectations I had for it after reading some things about Baer.

As for removing a kidney - when a person is a kidney donor they are actually in greater risk and pain than the person receiving the kidney. I don't buy it that he would have lived. Maybe in an ICU but not running around, etc...

[QUOTE=Voodoo Dolphin]but i kept expecting everything to be connected somehow in the end and when it didn't happen i felt kind of cheated.[/quote]

Why cheated? Does the edition of the book you have state, “in this book: everything ties together!”? It seems you had some preconceived notion of/for the book, which isn’t really fair.
Not too mention realistic. Christ, I look around to the chaos of my life and very little of it is “connected”. So I don’t expect most things to be. In fact, when a writer goes that route I think it’s a bloody cop-out.
So, if anything, _Kiss Me, Judas_ had a *hell of a lot* of ‘connectedness’, and that, to me, was one of it’s minor faults.

[QUOTE=Voodoo Dolphin]as much improvement as chuck has then he might even become a pretty good writer, but it was not as great as everyone has been saying.[/QUOTE]

This is just speculative.
You may have not enjoyed the story, but there is little doubt that this guy can “write”. And, to me, in this one effort (_Penny Dreadful_ is currently on order) easily outshines Chuck at Chuck’s finest (therefore probably _Survivor_), from a technical and writing perspective.

. . . . .

[QUOTE=dzudzu]I guess my main disappointment was that it didn't even get close to any expectations I had for it after reading some things about Baer.[/quote]

Again, that’s a bit unfair toward any book, piece of music, film, etc etc.
The proverbial grain of salt should *always* be measured up to at least a gram when listening to others (myself, of course, included).

[QUOTE=dzudzu]As for removing a kidney - when a person is a kidney donor they are actually in greater risk and pain than the person receiving the kidney. I don't buy it that he would have lived. Maybe in an ICU but not running around, etc...[/QUOTE]

Your assessment isn’t necessarily true. But medical arguments aside, if you disliked the book based on your inability to suspend disbelief a bit, I’m terribly surprised you managed to get through, say, many, if not all of Chuck’s books.
If Jude properly clamped and stitched internally, he’d very easily live. Infection, however, would be a more likely impedance.
But yes, he’d damn well be in pain just moving from side to side, let alone throwing a punch.
But for me the story was well told and well written.

But that’s why we’re here: to rap about all this kinda stuff.
Better luck next book (gawd knows I just had a streak of shit-reading)…
j(ay)

[QUOTE=jay]Why cheated? Does the edition of the book you have state, “in this book: everything ties together!”? It seems you had some preconceived notion of/for the book, which isn’t really fair.
Not too mention realistic. Christ, I look around to the chaos of my life and very little of it is “connected”. So I don’t expect most things to be. In fact, when a writer goes that route I think it’s a bloody cop-out.
So, if anything, _Kiss Me, Judas_ had a *hell of a lot* of ‘connectedness’, and that, to me, was one of it’s minor faults. [/QUOTE]
it seems like he kept alluding to connections that weren't there. it could just have been paranoia from poe but after awhile it got tiresome when i started to realize that nothing was actually connected.

[QUOTE=jay]Why cheated? Does the edition of the book you have state, “in this book: everything ties together!”? It seems you had some preconceived notion of/for the book, which isn’t really fair.
Not too mention realistic. Christ, I look around to the chaos of my life and very little of it is “connected”. So I don’t expect most things to be. In fact, when a writer goes that route I think it’s a bloody cop-out.
So, if anything, _Kiss Me, Judas_ had a *hell of a lot* of ‘connectedness’, and that, to me, was one of it’s minor faults. [/QUOTE]

it seemed like he kept alluding to connections that were'nt really there. i know it was mostly just paranoia no poe's part but after awhile it got annoying when i realized that was all it was and nothing was connected. and it seemed like alot of it was filler type stuff.

I think I have an error in my Kiss Me, Judas advance press proof copy.
In chapter eight Poe is sitting in a car with the Blister, right after the bit about Blister being a control freak and the car windows:
--
Aren't you neglecting something? I say.
He blinks at me.
What about the heroin?
The Blister turns a delicious shade of pink. Heroin?
Heroin, I say.
--
Then Blister goes on about explaining how Poe is being used as a mule and El Paso and so on. Then it continues:
--
You just made that up, I say.
I did not, he says.
---

The heroin pouch isn't mentioned earlier in the book or did I compleatly miss it? It's like in the first part I quoted they chanced roles. That's quite a big error.

Try the Baer link------->[url=http://www.willchristopherbaer.com/community/showthread.php?t=257]Baer[/url]

Or are you and Flamehead one in the same person ?

Things that make you go Hummmm...

I've read Kiss Me, Judas and Penny Dreadful. I liked the books so much because the character of Phineas Poe is so alluring, I can't really explain it, perhaps it'll become clearer once I've read Hell's Half Acre.

^^^Wish I could read Hell's Half again for the first time. One hell of an experience.

again out of boredom i state the fact that ive only read penny dreadfull and hells half acre

both books ive really really REALLY liked exept for the endings.

baers writing is awesome and flows really well, somethings weird about the editing though, like parts were removed

Just finished Kiss Me, Judas.

I got hooked in the first chapters. The filthy noirish feel and good writing. I had stiches awhile ago, so I could almost smell and taste the wound on his side.

The midway remained me of Irvine Welsh's Filth, in a bad way. I'm high, I want to fuck her, I'm sweating, I want to kill her. Repeat, repeat, repeat...

The end was disapointing. The atmosphere in the last scenes was good. The dim monastery and these two, well written dying characters. It just ended too abrutly.

I'll read the other two if I get them cheap.

[QUOTE=JKabol]Not about an urban legend. This is a book about soul. This is a romance, like Fight Club is a romance.[/QUOTE]
This being the case, why weigh the book down with an irrelevant, annoying cliche like a kidney thief? To me, it just seems like unnecessary decoration, trying to make things more appealing and twisted to kind of cash in on the Fight Club wake. Anybody can chime on this one.

I like how it just ends abruptly. It brings a quality of real life to it. I don't know if that makes sense to any here. But I just see it as a something being told and that being the end of it and people asking questions afterwards like "So did he make it out okay? What happened afterwards? " stuff like that. I see that as something of real life when a story is told. A person just adds a bit of flair so that it has an ending but this just comes off as something still being told...which I liked.

[QUOTE=Rents]This being the case, why weigh the book down with an irrelevant, annoying cliche like a kidney thief? To me, it just seems like unnecessary decoration, trying to make things more appealing and twisted to kind of cash in on the Fight Club wake. Anybody can chime on this one.[/QUOTE]
Completely different animals.

Many stories are about a romance, but that doesnt mean they follow in Fight Club steps. I dont understand your comparison.

A kidney theft as a cliche ?

Um, okay. But. I'll share maybe a thought you have not considered ...

A theft of the flesh being one of the most abtrusive offences, and a kidney is something that you only need one of. To still live. This being said, it professes a very strong betrayal, which sets the height level of the novel. This novel is its title in the truest sense, and this particular romance is about betrayal and forgiveness more than love.

If youre offended that someone made a novel based on such an urban un-myth, then I can only assume that you maybe feel the same way about a novel's timeclock being a recording in the "black box" of a highjacked plane that goes kaboom at the end. Or a novel about babies being stolen and then sold on the black market. Etc. And to that I say, to each his own. No hard feelings here.
kabol

[QUOTE=JKabol]Completely different animals.

Many stories are about a romance, but that doesnt mean they follow in Fight Club steps. I dont understand your comparison.

A kidney theft as a cliche ?

Um, okay. But. I'll share maybe a thought you have not considered ...

A theft of the flesh being one of the most abtrusive offences, and a kidney is something that you only need one of. To still live. This being said, it professes a very strong betrayal, which sets the height level of the novel. This novel is its title in the truest sense, and this particular romance is about betrayal and forgiveness more than love.

If youre offended that someone made a novel based on such an urban un-myth, then I can only assume that you maybe feel the same way about a novel's timeclock being a recording in the "black box" of a highjacked plane that goes kaboom at the end. Or a novel about babies being stolen and then sold on the black market. Etc. And to that I say, to each his own. No hard feelings here.
kabol[/QUOTE]
Alright, mate, here's what I was saying. For me, urban legends are as good as cliches. I've heard 'em a billion trillion times and I don't want to hear them again. Ever. It better be really fuckin good if I'm going to have to sit through that story one more time. This book hinges on that twist. Therefore, I can't really dig it. No matter how much of a romance it is and not really about the theft of the kidney, the kidney thing still gets me. My question is why the kidney? Does there really need to be the dirty underworld shocker of black market organs or is all that really unnecessary? In my opinion, it's really unnecessary. I said it was possibly riding the wake of books like Fight Club not because of this "romance" aspect you're talking about, but because of this unnecessary in-your-face shock factor. It just seems like people are trying too hard to seem "hardcore" and not trying hard enough to make the story readable. I really didn't like IM because of this same reason.

[QUOTE=Rents]Alright, mate, here's what I was saying. For me, urban legends are as good as cliches. I've heard 'em a billion trillion times and I don't want to hear them again. Ever. It better be really fuckin good if I'm going to have to sit through that story one more time. This book hinges on that twist. Therefore, I can't really dig it. No matter how much of a romance it is and not really about the theft of the kidney, the kidney thing still gets me. My question is why the kidney? Does there really need to be the dirty underworld shocker of black market organs or is all that really unnecessary? In my opinion, it's really unnecessary. I said it was possibly riding the wake of books like Fight Club not because of this "romance" aspect you're talking about, but because of this unnecessary in-your-face shock factor. It just seems like people are trying too hard to seem "hardcore" and not trying hard enough to make the story readable. I really didn't like IM because of this same reason.[/QUOTE]

I love Baer's writing, so it's hard to try and be objective. but...I don't think the book hinges on the stolen kidney aspect. to me, it was almost irrelevant after a while. the plot became like a sideshow in a way, because it always seemed like Baer's purpose was to explore the characters more. Most stories probably are urban myths, or variations thereof at least.

[QUOTE=john doe]I love Baer's writing, so it's hard to try and be objective. but...I don't think the book hinges on the stolen kidney aspect. to me, it was almost irrelevant after a while. the plot became like a sideshow in a way, because it always seemed like Baer's purpose was to explore the characters more. Most stories probably are urban myths, or variations thereof at least.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I take it back, the book doesn't hinge on this kidney theft. But again, I ask, if it's not vital to the story and all it does is add annoying urban legend/cliche, then why put it in there?

And I seriously, seriously doubt that most stories are based on urban myths. Seriously.

[QUOTE=Rents]And I seriously, seriously doubt that most stories are based on urban myths. Seriously.[/QUOTE]

In the previous paragraph you “/” the urban legend and cliché thing. That I’ll agree with, as I’d have to really say, “what is an urban legend BUT a cliché?”

I can understand the story not working for you, but I am totally flabbergasted that you could defend S. King [in another thread – Amy Hempel, for those not following] with such examples of “talent” as a story about kids finding a body in the woods –cerrrtainly not “urban legend/cliché that!- and a story about a jail-break! Bloody please!

I’m sure most of us kinda like _Fight Club_, well, the split-personality is certainly an “urban legend/cliché”. Like “Guts”? Cliché.

It’s what’s done with it that counts. Baer didn’t work for you, that’s cool. King doesn’t work for me.

That’s why bookstores are pretty spacious. Lots o’ shelves to choose from.

Personally, I have no problem with the kidney thing, granted I don’t read Darwin Awards anymore or look at the Snopes site, so maybe this is a theme not buried into the ground for me.
Some workers were doing some renovations in my flat recently, I terribly hated the feeling of going home and knowing someone was in my place. So I can, in a way, imagine the strange feeling (to say the least) Poe might have had with someone taking a part of him, without his knowledge even.
As example.
j(ay)

[QUOTE=jay]In the previous paragraph you “/” the urban legend and cliché thing. That I’ll agree with, as I’d have to really say, “what is an urban legend BUT a cliché?”

I can understand the story not working for you, but I am totally flabbergasted that you could defend S. King [in another thread – Amy Hempel, for those not following] with such examples of “talent” as a story about kids finding a body in the woods –cerrrtainly not “urban legend/cliché that!- and a story about a jail-break! Bloody please!

I’m sure most of us kinda like _Fight Club_, well, the split-personality is certainly an “urban legend/cliché”. Like “Guts”? Cliché.

It’s what’s done with it that counts. Baer didn’t work for you, that’s cool. King doesn’t work for me.

That’s why bookstores are pretty spacious. Lots o’ shelves to choose from.

Personally, I have no problem with the kidney thing, granted I don’t read Darwin Awards anymore or look at the Snopes site, so maybe this is a theme not buried into the ground for me.
Some workers were doing some renovations in my flat recently, I terribly hated the feeling of going home and knowing someone was in my place. So I can, in a way, imagine the strange feeling (to say the least) Poe might have had with someone taking a part of him, without his knowledge even.
As example.
j(ay)[/QUOTE]
right, we're gonna have to merge these bad boys pretty soon. See, the way I see it, the big difference between all the cliches you've referenced and this kidney thing is that these others were headlining feature of the book, movie, short story, whatever. In fight club, the split personality was a secret until the end. In the shawshank redemption (you've got me ashamed to be using movie titles now), the big prison break was a secret. in that other movie that I refuse to use the name of, the dead body was a... not so much a secret, but it was all about the journey there. It was about being a kid and being alive, not about finding this dead body and getting rich. (Btw, I don't really recall that whole urban legend/cliche, maybe I'm missing out.) And no, I didn't really like Guts. Again too much of the hardcore, gross out factor.

But what it all boils down to is taste, and I'm glad that we're both adult enough to admit that your taste in literature sucks donkey balls and mine rules supreme.

Now seriously, Snopes? I've never heard of this shit.

[QUOTE=Rents]And I seriously, seriously doubt that most stories are based on urban myths. Seriously.[/QUOTE]

so do I, on second thoughts. dunno what I was (not) thinking there.

[QUOTE=Rents]all the cliches you've referenced and this kidney thing is that these others were headlining feature of the book, movie, short story, whatever.[/quote]

Did you mean were NOT headlining?
If so, I hardly think the ‘kidney situation’ was a major factor in the book. But you’ve already kinda backed away from that…

[QUOTE=Rents]in that other movie that I refuse to use the name of[/quote]

You can use it, but you gotta sing it.

[QUOTE=Rents]the dead body was a... not so much a secret, but it was all about the journey there. It was about being a kid and being alive, not about finding this dead body and getting rich. (Btw, I don't really recall that whole urban legend/cliche, maybe I'm missing out.)[/quote]

I haven’t read it/seen it. I can only palate so much King. And little children are annoying.
But the simple fact that the THEME is the ‘urban legend/cliché’ is the point.
Again, it’s just how it’s dealt with.
So if there was, I’m guessing from your wording, *no* actual body…would you have been more pleased if at the middle/end we were informed that there was *no* actually kidney taken and that the scar was, I don’t know, just a ruse?
I think not.

[QUOTE=Rents]I'm glad that we're both adult enough to admit that your taste in literature sucks donkey balls and mine rules supreme. ;)[/quote]

How cliché!
But seriously, I’d say my taste is more butterfly kisses to the cloaca range…but there are no photos to prove that…

[QUOTE=Rents]Now seriously, Snopes? I've never heard of this shit.[/QUOTE]

Not a Faulkner reference, but:
[url]http://www.snopes.com/[/url]

j(ay)

You know what? I never understood why Phineas became obsessed with Jude after she stole his kidney. You know what? Baer's writing was so good, I didn't care, and I accepted the fact that there are things about people that I don't understand. I just loved his pacing, his imagery, the poetry of his sentences. His writing is hypnotic. I"m not certain exactly what "noir" is, but I think if Baer was talking about a cook frying eggs, I'd be hooked.

Izen, I understand your point; that's part of why I like to read, too. But, Baer entertains and seduces with his style of writing. I didn't even like poetry until I started reading his books.

Spike, if you keep going, you'll get sucked in. P.D. was my favorite of the three.

I’ll take this back over here [the Baer stuff got a bit crossbred with the Amy Hempel thread (my fault)].

I asked Rents to cite some of these work having to do with kidney theft that have so soured him on the subject:

[QUOTE=Rents]Well, most recently, I can only think of a film, Dirty Pretty Things, which was good[/quote]

Didn’t see it, but your citing a movie released in 2002 and saying the idea is tired, and the book you’re complaining about was published in 1998.
That’s pretty unfair.

j(ay)

this preoccupation with kidney theft is weird.

dirty pretty things wasn't so much about kidney theft, but more about the desperate lengths illegal immigrants go to to survive.

[QUOTE=john doe]this preoccupation with kidney theft is weird.[/QUOTE]

Well, Portnoy had a thing for livers, maybe our Rents has a thing about kidneys…
j(ay)

[QUOTE=jay]Didn’t see it, but your citing a movie released in 2002 and saying the idea is tired, and the book you’re complaining about was published in 1998.
That’s pretty unfair.

j(ay)[/QUOTE]
Ha, you act like I've been devising these arguments for hours and days on end, as though this is an argument with that I've spent my whole life waiting to debate when in fact these are statements I was conned into making at 4 in the morning while pulling a 10 page paper out of my ass.

Now that I've had a little bit of time to think semi-logically here (still going off of only 3 hours of sleep, so forgive me), I have to say that it's not so much that this kidney thing has been used over and over, it's simply that if he wanted the same effect, there were other ways of going about it other than relying on an urban legend. But this is just how I've developed as a reader, movie-goer, and writer. I can't handle the same word being used twice in a paragraph. (some obvious exceptions apply) It makes me feel like whoever is doing the creating has run out of new ideas and must rely on ones he's already used or ones he can scrounge up quickly.

But before we drive this into the ground, how bout we call it quits on this. I know I've had my fill of discussing this particular topic. Anybody care to suggest another?

After reading how so many cult members were into Baer I was anticipating picking up Judas. I finally read it last week and I was not disappointed. I am surprised at how many epopel were unsatisfied by the ending and the "unrealistic premise" What about the premise of a "Culling Song" that kills people? Whatever happened to suspension of disbelief. If you want believable stories talk to your friends about real life. It wasn't about the kidney, it was about the character of Poe. The kidney was a symbol for a part of his life that was stolen, possibly his wife. I loved his hallucinations and the mystery behind the death of his wife and his career in law inforcement.
As for the ending, when are endings ever satisfying. It's the journey not the destination. There are few books, or films where the ending ties up or gives you a sense of resolution of a story. In real life, there is no happy ending or definite ending. On the other hand, thinking of Chucks stories they kind of have satisfying endings but if they didn't I'd still like the journey.

I love being the reader. Baer sucks and I feel no need to cite reasons why. He wrote a piece of shit, I'm one motherfucking speed-reader, and I'm glad I spent as little time reading all three of his novels as I did. Never again.