If I get into university in England and then find a good job over there, I'm not coming back. Maybe in many many years, but not very soon.

It's all about corruption and lack of interest in anything, from the youngest kid to those who lead us. I just can't stay in a country where I can't vote for anyone because they're all the same.

Look at other countries. Three words: Bill Of Rights.

Freedom of Speech in Canada? Doesn't exist.
Freedom of Religion in Germany? No unapproved organizations, thank you.
Want to buy a gun in England. You can't. You may never want to, but how do you feel about being told "We won't let you".

Consider all the things.

Then make your decisions.

If you don't like things, change them; don't run away from them.

2¢

Because these things don't happen in England.

Hi there. I am greener.

I really don't know.

I take comfort in the fact that there are people fighting just as hard on the side of reason and compassion, and while I tend to stay uninvolved with politics for the most part because keeping up with my own life is hard enough, I know there are things I would take to the streets over.

I get very perturbed by the whole anti sexual education camp.

OK, Tuffy, so for you, it would be if they abolished the Bill of Rights and replaced it with a Bill of Citizen Responsibilities? What about if it came to pass that congress was voting on a bill likely to pass that mandated euthanasia for all people that were disabled or diseased?

This is a thread about what it would take to make you consider the idea, not a whining about how bad things have gotten. Is there anything that would make you fold your hand and say "These people are nuts and I'm getting the hell out of here!"?

i once had a pact with a very close canadian friend to get married and emigrate should there be another draft.

that would do it.

A canadian.

A Canadienne.

No, in such a case I would arm myself to fight for my country, and I would kill those attempting attacking it.

It's my goddamned country.

We all work against the wingnuts everyday. Local activism and civic responsibility help.

And go where, exactly?

Better we eject the nuts. I like the place.

I get what you are saying Tuffy, but I'm not talking about staying some place where things are (at least for the USA) as they are right now. Nor is this scenario about staying in the USA vs. leaving. It's about what would make you go. Period. Let's say you were in Djibouti or Syria. Of the myriad of atrocities that go on there, which one or ones would make you say "Fuck this - I'm outta here!"?

Completely off topic - what happens if YOU are considered to be the crazy armed wing nut spouting off fanatical ideas about rights to free speech and rights to bear arms? We all know what happens to that guy. Especially in a tyrannical scenario where those rights don't exist. Would you end up being one of the "Domestic Terrorists" we hear about every month on the news?

Being forced to fight for a cause you don't believe in (or forcing other people even if you do believe in it) is a pretty good reason in my opinion. It wouldn't do it for me, though.

My family's day to day life would have to be in jeopardy before I would consider leaving.

I think he just means there isn't a situation that would make him leave because he ain't the leavin' type.

also, I have no idea how to answer this question myself.

Both my sister and father own guns. You just need to apply for a license and have your gun cabinet approved. I do admit that the process to acquire one is more lengthy than in the US, but it's not impossible... unless you are a past convict and in that case you might as well forget it.

Hunting rifles? Pistols? I can buy an assault rifle as easily as I can a bag of flour. Which is admittedly feels weird.

What about a permit to carry a concealed firearm? It varies by state (like most of our other gun regs), but in Pennsylvania, the process is 1) fill out application (essentially swearing that you're not a violent criminal), 2) pay fee ($10 I think), 3) get handed permit.

Americans are a little gun-nutty in general. Appalachians especially so.

There are many good reasons for living in another country before being pushed in exile. And even so, you don't need to renounce your citizenship.

If Barack Obama is re-elected: I'm out.

Bye.

A bunch of my classmates at the time promised to move to Canada if he was elected. Most of them still live in the same house. I suppose they may have a second chance now.

If every person who made claims like that after every such election, the US would be a lot better off, economically. At the very least, less populated.

Idle wank.

welp, see ya later.

obama 2012 "because he's kind of cool but not as cool as we thought but WAY fucking better than those other jackasses"

Now that's a slogan.

I want that on a sign in my yard.

The circumstance in which I would leave the United States is if I felt in personal danger because activists were being rounded up/killed a la Burma or China. If the US adopted Singapore-style execution laws, I'd probably want to leave. I don't think there's any obligation for anyone to be anywhere for any political reason. I don't recognize the concept of citizenship so I don't see much of a point in messing with it. It's some privilege class recognized by governments, and I was lucky enough to be born with one of the most privileged government statuses. I try and interact with individuals over governments and drones as much as possible.

The idea of planning to kill for ideals is something that scares me. I don't have any grand illusions of seizing liberty with violence (means and ends?)

It would be awesome because the holdouts in the state house would finally see the light and vote nullification.

South America is a large continent, where many people will treat you well if you employ them to take care of you. It's a big world out there, don't see the imaginary lines they've established as your personal prison.

Because I don't recall, its better to ask than assume. Tuffy, have you ever told me in the past that 'If I don't like it I can leave'?

And its only long guns, with very little defensive capability. While long guns are great for stopping invasions, they do little to protect against close quarters weapons (knives and pistols), especially when they're locked up in a gun cabinet at home. You can't carry a firearm in the UK. That's a pretty huge second half of that right to keep and bear thing. Not having a right to personal self defense is a major personal liberties issue, even, and I'd say especially if you're in the majority demographic that does not carry any weapons.

These people must be held to their word! Robert Redford and Alec Baldwin are two I'm aware of.

I'm shooting my idea over to his campaign people now. It's really a slogan that people can agree with!

in all honesty though, I'm still pro-Obama. I'm not saying he's infallible or he's always made the right choices, but god damnit he's the best we've got right now, and he's done some pretty alright stuff in my opinion.

I think I'd only leave the country if my life was in danger for some reason. similar to what Giggan said. I value my country, but I value my life more than a failing system.

...

You don't believe in citizenship but you believe in rights ? I don't understand.

Also, leaving one's country doesn't mean that you reject it or that you necessarily want to adopt the new country's citizenship or culture. Being away from home actually plays tricks on your identity.

Leaving into exile is a specific situation, it applies only when you would otherwise face certain death, oppression/totalitarianism/slavery or absolute misery.

PS : refraining to comment on the gun issue.

i would only renounce my citizenship if i could become an honorary laplander

I fail to see how one follows the other. See: uS Declaration of Independence.

I believe in rights to the extent that I recognize them. I acknowledge that they are not tangible and only exist to the extent that you can defend them. I don't recognize citizenship in the sense that I don't treat people differently based on their citizenship status.

Thanks!

NDAA, SOPA, PIPA are just about bad enough. NDAA honestly scares the shit out of me. But what will it take for me to really pick up and move? I think if they take away our right to bear arms it will be a sign that the conspiracy theorists are right and this country will be heading to a place I can no longer live.

I thought long and hard about it.

Genocide.

First I would fight, start a revolution, if the numbers are too strong I'd either die fighting or manage to survive by retreating.

Yeah, that would do it for me, too.

This would be a sad day.

Yes, it would.

I guess I get worried because it seems like, if it got phrased the right way, you could convince a lot of people to believe it's the right thing to do.

The people in the societies that allow/allowed genocide to occur are usually just ignorant folks that allow their leaders to do their thinking for them. They really don't give much thought to anything that doesn't involve them. And anything that does... well, they will likely go with the majority.

If it got phrased the right way, it would be a piece of cake to convince people it'd be for the better. It reminded me of this quote ..
“What luck for the rulers that men do not think.” - Adolf Hitler

" They really don't give much thought to anything that doesn't involve them. And anything that does... well, they will likely go with the majority."

What's really sad is this is true for most Americans. I love America, I really do, but I loathe the ignorance it entails within society. I also loathe the amount of people who don't care about anything that doesn't directly involve or influence them, especially seriously important issues. If people literally don't see it in front of their faces [be it on the news, or through media, or what have you] it has no place in their mind or life. To me, a lot of Americans seem to be in a bubble of fake happiness and blissful ignorance.

So, all in all, I get worried for the same reason you do - it's almost too easy to convince people to go along with such atrocities, usually thanks to the band wagon/majority opinion. People are way too scared to disagree, even if it's the right thing to do.

I saw that happen with the second Iraq war. It was surreal. We all knew there were no WMD's. Everybody knew it was a pretext. It was a farce. But anyone that said it above a whisper was an "Unamerican Coward bowing down to the terrorists".

The election right after the vote to "End the Iraqi reign of Terror" saw nearly all (or possibly all) the people who voted against the majority and for common sense get voted out, in favor of people that WOULD have voted for it EVEN though we had been there for months and NO WMD's had been found. I don't like that so many people died on both sides (especially theirs) because group think took over the nation.

The US Declaration of Independence states that certain rights are inalienable, that is, they exist above and beyond the Laws of Man and cannot be denied, ignored, refused, etc. regardless of citizenship, status, imaginary lines in the sand, and so forth. I'm down with that.

I'll weigh-in on the rest in the morning when my hands can do the typey thing with my fingers that my brain wants them to do.

There was never really anything that could incite passion in me as much as the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

But then one day I read this

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

And I nearly cried.

Not gonna bother trying to multi-quote all this.

">" is said by Giggan as in an email reply.

> The idea of planning to kill for ideals is something that
> scares me. I don't have any grand illusions of seizing
> liberty with violence (means and ends?)

Killing should scare you. It should never come easily and always be the second to last resort.

> South America is a large continent, where many people will
> treat you well if you employ them to take care of you.
> It's a big world out there, don't see the imaginary lines
> they've established as your personal prison.

I read this as "Go to the jungle. Become tribal warlord with private army."

> Because I don't recall, its better to ask than assume.
> Tuffy, have you ever told me in the past that 'If I don't
> like it I can leave'?

I don't recall using those exact words at any point in my life, and it's extremely unlikely as I don't - at all - subscribe to the "Love It Or Leave It" philosophy.

However. I have heard (and read upon this forum) many times over the years, variations on, "Due to (Certain Political/Economic Situation), I am out of here and moving to (Canada/The UK/Ireland/South America/Ignoristan/Wherever) where I can be truly free to live as I choose!" I freely invite those people, wherever I encounter them, to have at it and good luck. I've traveled a bit and loved other people and other lands, but have yet to find somewhere else that I could be Home. If I did, I might be there instead.

I would also encourage any brave soul to declare themselves Free and go start their own country. This would probably be closest to your tribal warlord dream. Why not? Luck to you.

> And its only long guns, with very little defensive
> capability.

My point there.

> These people must be held to their word! Robert Redford
> and Alec Baldwin are two I'm aware of.

There were also a number of ultra-right pundits who vowed to leave the country if "that Muslem soshlist terrist nigro" was elected. They all seem to have failed to leave as well.

People always forget about them.

Instead they used their millions and billions to fund a "grassroots populist" "Tea Party". Ah, well.

Anyway, point is, I ain't leaving.

The worst thing about being a Canadian alcoholic is when sentences ending in AA require an Eh at the end. I guarantee there are Canadians who have had this conversation:

Canadian 1: I'm in AA, eh?
Canadian 2: Eh?
Canadian 1: Yeah.
Canadian 2: Huh.

AAA is the guys who come pick you up when your car has a flat. Conceivably, you could state that you are a member of the AAA, eh?

But it's CAA in Canada, eh? Except in Alberta. In BC it's BCAA. Try ascertaining confirmation on that shit.

What if they do a Fonzy impersonation about CAA picking them up at AA?