The War and Oil

As far as Bush's motives are concerned, I really don't know where they rest. I don't feel comfortable with bush as president. He makes me feel very uneasy and embarassed for him everytime he is on tv. The day he was elected I got an overwhelming feeling that if anything ever happened, foreign policy-wise, he wouldn't be able to handle it and we would probably end up going to war. And look where we're at. I just think that's a little creepy. not saying I think I'm psychic or anything.

I don't support a war with Iraq. I don't support war anywhere at anytime. I've had strong feelings against war since I can remember. I just see it causing bigger problems than we've seen already as far as terrorism is concerned. I admit I am very uninformed when it comes to politics and the way our government runs things, and all I can say and know is what I feel.

But I think people are being very irrational. Did anyone else see that shit today about restaurants renaming "french" fries and pulling french and german wines off their shelves. Come on now really! How rediculous is this going to get? I feel like I'm living in the wrong world, born at the wrong time, I cannot relate to these people.

Bergums, I couldn't disagree with you more. GWB, an honorable man? Jesus Christ thats the most overstated thing I ever heard. And him doing coke is a big mistake? Who says he still doesn't do it? I bet you most of our government still does coke, which is probably the only one thing I can relate to with them. Besides that, GWB is a moron. I can't even beleive that a country who's had men like FDR, JFK, and even Ike can harbor such a dunce for a president. It's embarrasing and I'd probably rather have Nixon in there than this moron, and thats a pretty bold statement.

But the thing with GWB is that you know he's not running the show. He's not smart enough for that. He can barely muster enough brain power to get through a speech, let alone come up with any type of foreign policy on his own. History has proven that weak rulers are heavily influenced by other governmental forces, and GWB is as weak as they come.

So if you think this war is honorable and worth fighting for or even dying for, you have to ask yourself, "would I fight in this war". If your answer is no, then you do not have your priorities straight. Should you want to take up arms against Saddam's Iraq, then hey, who am I to stop you. Personaly, I need more of a reason to go to war than whats already been presented.

As far as France and Germany goes, I'm pretty critical of France because they're fuckin barbarians themselves in what their doing in the Ivory Coast. So they're just being hypocrites. I think Germany is just sick of conflict in general, but those Germans have a feirce blood for conflict so I could be wrong.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by baby gal [/i]
[B]Did anyone else see that shit today about restaurants renaming "french" fries and pulling french and german wines off their shelves. Come on now really! How rediculous is this going to get? I feel like I'm living in the wrong world, born at the wrong time, I cannot relate to these people. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is nothing new. Happened in WWI & II (why do you think we call them 'hot dogs'?) Most name changes tend to be temporary, though. This has probably happened to some extent during every other war in history. It is, for example, a big part of why we Americans drink coffee to a far greater extent than tea.

I agree with you Baby gal, but I must point out one mistake. GWB was not elected. He was appointed. He did not even get the majority of the 40% of Americans that voted in the last presidential election.

BLARG why were you watching MTV to get political news
jesus their top story is "dun dun duh!" BRITNEY BREAKS UP WITH JUSTIN this is unbeliveable oh and uh mtvs whole rock the vote thing was proven wrong in 2000 showing that your vote contrary to popular belief MEANS SHIT!

JESUS i just read over your story again and

WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT WE ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH IRAQ THAN WITH 4 MILLION MAN ARMY
and in 91' why did we go to war with iraq when they annexed a shit little country like kuwait if we want to be the diplomatic country we would be at war right now with china because china annexes a country like everyday!
We fought in 91' for oil and we'll fight in 03' for oil.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bane [/i]
[B]why did we go to war with iraq when they annexed a shit little country like kuwait[/B][/QUOTE]
Because Kuwait are a peaceful country and our allies. They weren't 'annexed' either, they were invaded. Kuwait is also one of the only non-[i]third-world[/i] nations in the middle east. If Iraq had attacked, say Great Britain, you wouldn't have questioned a response by force.

Interesting fact here is that much of Iraq's exported oil (prior to the embargo) was purchased by *Duh duh duh!* our "allies" France and Germany... who are really very sternly insisting that we leave Iraq alone and are organizing protests based upon the "No war for oil" motif. Now, I can't claim to know or understand the real motivations behind our sudden reinterest in Iraq - I suspect that it has everything to do with a "war on terror" having no visible targets, no easily understandible goals, and no forseeable end, whereas we can go into Iraq, win, look good to our citizenry, and feel like we've accomplished something tangible. Whether or not you support this is entirely up to you, but parroting some easy "No war for oil" soundbite is no better than blindly supporting the war.

[QUOTE][b]if we want to be the diplomatic country we would be at war right now with china because china annexes a country like everyday! [/B][/QUOTE]

We will quite possibly be at war with North Korea very soon over thier threatened [b]annihilation[/b] of South Korea. Will you protest that one as well? And, sure, China should absolutely be dealt with over its treatment of Tibet and Nepal (and others?) - preferably diplomatically as a war with them would in all likelihood cost hundreds of millions of lives. But, no, China hasn't increased it's borders - so far as I know - (barring it's pre-arranged reabsorbtion of Hong Kong) in some fifty-odd years.

[QUOTE][b]We fought in 91' for oil and we'll fight in 03' for oil. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yet, we got no oil increase or price-drop whatsoever after the '91 war. Incidentally, the majority of oil used in the US is drilled, pumped, refined, shipped, and sold in the US. A good deal is bought from Mexico, and most of the rest comes from our allies in the OPEC cartel. We have plenty of oil. Spending billions on a war for oil halfway accross the globe would be kind of silly. Even GWB isn't [i]that[/i] dumb.

But then what do I know?

[i](edited for her pleasure.)[/i]

Personally i think that North Korea is a much bigger problem than Iraq right now. We know that they have nuclear capabilities and we know that they wanta be starting something, to take from Micheal Jackson, so i think we should take care of N.K. while we have about 40 or 1000 inspectors inside Iraq looking for his stash. If we think that he has it hidden underground then we should go underground and look.

You are correct honorable was too strong a word. I would rephrase as "not evil". He is not an evil man that would send our soilders to die just for the sake of oil.

Also if you'll notice in my post at the beginning, I never really say if I'm for the war or against the war do I. I am simply saying most people I talk to have their facts wrong (and you know what I could to). I wish we could be more informed as to why we are really entering this war. If it is to get Sadam out of power, great. If it is to get oil or to divert the attention of the AMerican public then screw the Gov. I do know one thing as fact I work w/ a man of Iraqi decent and he HOPES we go and kill SAdam. He is the most gung ho person I know about this whole war. He thinks any loss of Iraqi innocents will be horrible but it will eventually serve the greater good for Iraq and for the world.

IM NOT PROTESTING THE WAR
im just saying we really are fighting for oil and im kinda for the war because huessian is an evil shit but iraq was also our ally before they "invaded" kuwait but what bush sr. said was that we wanted to help this country but look at both the pres's that went to was with iraq their father and son, and both buisness men
and technically bush is not the pres. his brother got him in office and because gore concided hes pres by default

SHIT
i may have to kill myself i just realized with my first two posts i sounded like a pussy war protestor

I FUCKING HATE PROTESTERS OF ANYKIND!
THEY KNOW NOTHING OF WHAT THEY TALK ABOUT!

Why the fuck would Iraq attack Britain? Or any western country? They'd cease to exist within a week, and they're not that stupid. The real point is that if Iraq do have half-decent offensive armaments they could take over OPEC, and that wouldn't do at all. The pro-war factions either want oil or want to suck up to America (like the weak shits in the Irish government who won't make a decisive statement either way). The anti-war factions have oil interests in Iraq as it stands and they don't want that to be disturbed.

Colin Powell claimed that Iraq and al-Qa'ida have been collaborating for decades. For a start, bin Laden publically despises Hussein for using religion to gain power over his country (he claimed to serve Allah, but many of the Ba'ath party are in fact Christians). And one other small detail: al-Qa'ida only came into existence in the mid-90s. Even the Secretary of Defence can't get his facts right.

Then there was the weapons report that Iraq prepared for the UN. It's public release was delayed so that all the trade with American and British companies could be tastefully edited out.

Someone mentioned that Bush wouldn't spend billions on a war so far away unless he had a good reason. This war isn't going to cost him a penny. Anything he spends will be taken back from the Iraqi people. To take a recent example, NATO sent in their own companies to repair the damage NATO themselves did in the Balkans towards the end of the 90s, and then charged the native governments for 'services rendered'.

Now before anyone starts getting at me about how necessary this war is...if you really think that, fine. Go buy a gun and catch the next flight to Iraq. Just don't sit around acting like anyone gives a flying fuck what you believe. Likewise with any anti-war protesters. Who are you trying to convince? You can't stop this. Just get on with your lives. And so people won't make stupid assumptions as to my stance: as far as I'm concerned, there's not a country on the planet that doesn't deserve to be wiped out.

So there you go. All my idiocy in one neat package. Now stop fucking annoying me.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by chosenJuan [/i]
[B]Why the fuck would Iraq attack Britain? Or any western country? They'd cease to exist within a week, and they're not that stupid. The real point is that if Iraq do have half-decent offensive armaments they could take over OPEC, and that wouldn't do at all.[/B][/QUOTE]
Britain was an [b]example[/b] (and I thought a slightly humorous one.) Iraq can't "take over" OPEC with weapons and an army - it's a coalition, that would be akin to Ecuador declaring war on General Foods - it doesn't work. Now stop whining.

Damm, Gucci always drops in lke the voice of reason.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bergums [/i]
[B]After watching a horriblly slanted and biased piece of war info on MTV, I have come to the conclusion that my peers are retarded. GWB seems to me to be a honorable man, he has made mistakes(coke), he sux at giving speeches, and he is kinda stupid for all intents and purposes. [/B][/QUOTE]

Honorable- No, just an asshole.
Mistakes- Coke? Ha! Its just recreation
Sux- Yes, he does, muchly.
Stupid- Beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Hmm, there was something I can't put my finger on..

Oh yea that's right

The revolutionary war was a protest against Britain was it not?

So the founders of this country knew nothing of what they were talking about? -- Doubtful

The sad thing is that the founders of this country created a democracy, a government for the people by the people whatever that whole nonsense was and gave us guaranteed freedoms in the declaration of independence, constitution and the amendments. The amendments well the first one is supposed to give the right to assemble but last week that was denied, and I saw it denied right in front of me in NYC.

If I remember correctly, that amendment can be restricted if there
is the chance of danger or violence to the people.

Palahniuk for President!

there was none though, the protest was restricted before it started, police were all over.

and I am not taking the 'terrorist threat' into consideration because I myself believe that's just nonsense propahgandah (sp?)

you got me wrong imthezenmaster i meant TODAY'S protestor
i was watching c-span on people that were protesting the world bank
they got everything they said wrong
they thoght we controled the world bank
we dont the swiss do(im pretty sure its the swiss)
but then they were talking about globalization and a woman was playing guitar and singing some song
and then in her "rebellion" against corporations
she gave everyone spongbob square pants and scoobie doo
bandages now last time i checked the people who develop those and sell them are corporations

and protestors say one thing and stick to it even if its wrong
you cannot conivince them they are wrong

There's too much stupid for me to even start in this thread.

You're missing out.

protestor's rule. they question authority and stand up for their beliefs, not just blindly follow the status quo.

Patriotism means do not ask questions!

Couldn't it just be possible that the 'protestors' are as much sheep as anyone else who blindly accepts a given dogma? "War is baaaaaaaaaaad!"

Some people will protest anything.

My experience with protestors:

Back in Seattle During the World Trade Riots, right before it got ugly, I was there. My cousin and I were touring downtown Seattle and some hippie chick gave us a flyer and started spewing her propaganda. Being educated gents we questioned why she was prostesting the World Trade Org. and she went on this rant. When my cousin and I pointed out flaws in her arguement and showed support for the WTO, she got all pissed off and started yelling at us. Calling us names and shit. Well, this created quite a scene since we obviously got this chick stirred up, which is what we wanted to do, so we were having a good laugh. But a crowd started forming around us and a much better educated protester came up and asked us what the problem was. Well, this more educated prostester had a half hour discussion with us and turned out to be super cool.

My point is, there are idiots and morons in every social circle of our society. In some groups more than others. Hell, there are morons and idiots that post here, I'm probably one of them. But don't label everyone in a group the same. There's an arguement on another thread about it not being fair that Europeans are judging all American's based on what they see on Fox news. Doesn't that suck?

So Bane, since you hate protesters, aren't you protesting the protesters, which pretty much makes you a protester?

And Kl0pper, is that a meatball or a pepporoni as your avatar?

i second decalouge protestors are sheep

Now, I don't mean to imply that any particular or all protestors are necessarily sheep. It's just that you take any given sample of humanity and the ratio of followers to leaders is very, very high.

[b]By Kenneth W. Parton[/b]
[i]Americans For
Non-Alternative Energy[/i]

I keep hearing the anti-war protesters chant, 'No blood for oil! No blood for oil!' But what they never seem to say is exactly how much oil we're talking about. Don't you think that's pertinent information? Are we talking a gallon of oil for every 10 gallons of blood? Or is it more like 30 gallons of oil for every pint of blood? Because if it's the latter, maybe a blood-oil exchange would be a good idea.

In the first Gulf War, roughly 300 brave Americans lost their lives. Assuming that each of these soldiers shed an average of eight pints of blood, that works out to roughly a pint of American blood shed per 60 million barrels of Kuwaiti crude saved from the clutches of Saddam. If you ask me, that's a pretty darn good deal. If we can manage to swing a similar trade this time around, then I say, 'Bombs away.'

We should also know what kind of blood we're giving up. Is it O-positive, the universal donor? I'd be more reluctant to part with that than some useless AB junk. If Bush and Rumsfeld spill, say, 100,000 gallons of B-negative or AB-positive soldier blood for an equivalent amount of primo Mideast oil, that may be well worth considering.

So, you see, you can't argue in the abstract like those naïve protesters on college campuses are doing. You've got to look at the hard numbers if you're going to make an informed decision about a potential blood-for-oil swap.

Sending innocent young men and women into battle to die is the most difficult decision a president can make. But it's that much easier when you know what you're getting in return. If I were Bush, I'd definitely do it if we could get the price of a gallon of Amoco Ultra Unleaded down to $1.19. Maybe even $1.21. Anything higher would give me pause. But $1.21 is a great price for a gallon. I would take a lot more weekend roadtrips if gas were that cheap. I might even upgrade to one of those Lincoln Navigators I've been seeing ads for on TV. That's a beautiful car.

Nobody wants to see brave young Americans sent off to die. Nobody wants to see blood spilled for oil. But if it comes to that, wouldn't we all feel better knowing that their blood was spilled for a [i]great deal[/i] of oil? I know I sure would.

Wow Decalogue, you make a good point! I never saw it that way. Well then, lets just save the poor GI bastards the trouble of going all that way and spilling their own blood and guts and just drain all the blood our of your vains and mail it over to Saddam for a few barrels of oil. That should do the trick.

Man, no one gets satire anymore.

Course we do, just being satirical ourself ; )

No way, dude, you were being ironic!

Thats the word!

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fucko [/i]
[B]So Bane, since you hate protesters, aren't you protesting the protesters, which pretty much makes you a protester?

And Kl0pper, is that a meatball or a pepporoni as your avatar? [/B][/QUOTE]"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it."

That would be Meatwad, of Aqua Teen Hunger Force. [url]www.athf.com[/url]