Should I Come Out?

Man, that sounds like a tough situation. I'm afraid I don't have much real-life experience with this sort of thing, over here people can be quite open about atheism.

Couldn't you just admit to your wife and the people closest to you that you don't really believe in God (at least in the Christian sense) but keep going to church with your family? If you believe in the ideals behind Christianity and the value of the church in society the do the metaphysics behind really matter that much?

keep it to yourself, your spirit is nobody else's business. not even ours.

Tell them you're gay at first and then say noooo, not really but I am athiest. The shock of the first might make the second bitter pill go down easier.

Well, if you want to get some advice...

Go to Frinedly Atheist, where they have a column called "Ask Richard". It is full of people looking for advice on how to handle such situations. In fact, here is a direct link to these http://friendlyatheist.com/category/richard-wade/ Or just go to the site and look under the "advice" category.

Believe it or not, this is a HUGE problem in the atheist community, since so many people are scared to lose family or friends.

IMO, it is something you should do. But my family was never very religious in the first place, so me being an atheist doesn't really surprise them. I actually have more difficulty getting my mom to understand that feng-shui is bullshit.

That's been the last 3 or so years until now. I guess I feel like I could be doing something better with my time. It's SO had to find a church that really does much in the way of actual charity work, and I would certainly be willing to compromise and attend a place like that.

Good advice as well. I've heard of that site but never really looked around too much.

And there's one of the many rubs.

I don't see any reason to believe we have a spirit, a soul, or anything immaterial. The closest thing to that is what I would call "mind" versus the physical, electrical "brain."

So yeah....

Don't go out of your way to make an issue of it, is my advice. The last thing anybody needs is their own family trying to save their soul. Issues of belief are trivial. If your family are truly devout christians, all coming out as an atheist will do is worry them you're going to burn in hell.

Or you can listen to this song on repeat, everyday until someone brings it up:

I don't even know where to start with you.

But seriously, I think the term atheist gives far too much credit to theists, who I do not believe even have a leg to stand on.

So I just don't believe in anything. I'm a realist, at best, I think.

I was raised Lutheran and in catechism we were taught that lacking doubt is akin to lacking consciousness. Really, anyone who is 100% sure of their beliefs is dangerous and insane. Without doubt there is no reason to better oneself. It's like believing in subjectivity/solipsism, if you don't doubt yourself you're not considering the possibility that you could be wrong. I'm fairly cynical of evangelical theology because I've always felt that they're too sure of themselves. Furthermore, I just don't see how Christian theology lends itself to "faith healing," which directly contradicts free will. Having faith does seem absurd at times, but remember that materialism runs into similar absurdities. Just consider infinity, an infinite universe. It seems absurd, but so does a limited universe (what's on the other side?). Then consider Einstein and Hawking's theories concerning the possibility of time travel, how time is just a dimension of our universe. It really doesn't matter if your worldview is theistic or atheistic, spiritual or material, our world abounds with paradoxes and absurdities. Søren Kirkegaard claimed that faith was logical because it's absurd. Spirituality is a real thing, as real as infinity and matter and nothingness and goodness. Christianity is the main outlet for spirituality in the western world.

You said you were a music pastor and as a musician I say consider this: while performing with others do you feel a connection beyond yourself? Does it give you a sense of goodness and selflessness? Because if it does, how would you replace that if you dropped the church? Consider this quote (paraphrase) from Kurt Vonnegut, "The only reason I have to believe in God is music." The problem I have with a lot of evangelicals is that they seem to believe that God is a giant man in the sky with a big white beard and robed angel helpers. That sounds a lot like Santa Claus to me. But Santa is real in the sense that if you are good to others they will repay you with a gift of some kind (not necessarily material). Goodness is a very real thing but it's very hard to rationalize without abstract metaphors and the like. A cold, calculated, material assessment of the world seems to leave one with broken ethical theories (utilitarianism) or a disbelief in altruistic morals (egoism/hedonism). But not necessarily. Immanuel Kant is my favorite ethicist and he used Aristotlean logic to justify the Golden Rule. That Golden Rule is the cornerstone of almost every religious ethical theory, but because the justification for it is based on reason, not religion, it's possible to be a reasonable, atheistic, ethical being. But the fact of the matter is that religion drives us to congregate and to proactively do good deeds.

I'm not trying to say that you should continue going to church if you feel uneasy about their beliefs. Evangelicals do make a lot of questionable metaphysical claims to which I'm opposed. I don't believe in an afterlife which consists of a pit of burning sulfur and torture chambers. I also disagree with Sartre's contention that "hell is other people." I think hell is realizing on your deathbed that you were selfish and did little to help others. Hell is guilt. Heaven is dying with a clear conscience, feeling good about the things you have contributed to this world. From there, concerning afterlife/reincarnation/ect., I have no idea, I just suspend belief. Perhaps we're all part of a collective consciousness, a Brahman, maybe we go see that robed man with a big beard. But what happens then shouldn't dictate how we behave now, we should behave with goodness, and different religions are different theories concerning goodness. I believe they're really all the same theory, like how Metallica and Beethoven both romp through the same seven tone scales. We have different cultures and languages, but goodness is universal, and spirituality is the ultimate form of goodness.

Well, that's my point of view, sorry I got a bit ranty, but I love this subject. I would recommend you study other religions and read some Herman Hesse, but I would hate to see you split from your religious community because of doubt. Without doubt it's not a religion, it's a cult. Doubt in the seeming cruelty of the material is was drives us to religion in the first place.

We're about the same age and I like you was raised in Evangelical Christian family and graduated from a Christian liberal arts college. While I am still very comfortable calling myself a Christian I understand where your head is at. And my advice would be to come clean to your family. As it stands you're living a lie, not being honest with those around you. At the very least your wife needs to know where you are at.

But before I go any further, I'm looking at your blog and facebook page, doesn't your wife see what you are posting?

@RazorSharp Enjoyed reading your post.

I would have a problem with any church which didn't devote most of its resources to charity work. I think it's sad that so many churches are more concerned about their self-contained community than doing good deeds.

Razorsharp;

Some great insights there.

About music, the truth is that I have felt a connection outside myself while playing/leading/participating. However, that feeling is indistinguishable from those I have felt at a good opera, violin concerto or rock concert (like the Deftones, for instance). Music moves me. But that feeling is in no way unique to religious music.

And I do believe in a type of spirituality, but it would be much more akin to that of Zen Buddhism, perfectly grounded in the rational world.

I recently read Sam Harris's The End of Faith and he comes to a very similar conclusion that I considered almost a year ago. He too sees spirituality as a good thing for society, but pits it against blind faith and the lion's share of old religious dogmas and ideals. His description of a way forward is very close to what Zen Buddhism is all about.

I've even tried doing the Zen thing, and 95% of it is great. The silent meditation, the lack of supernatural unprovable nonsense. There's just that tiny remnant of spiritual belief about the Buddha himself that defies logic and reality that I can't quite be open to.

I also believe that we are within one generation, maybe less, of having a real understanding of cognitive neuroscience as it relates to the development of religious ideas. I think religion, in the dogmatic or restricted sense, is a natural, and sometimes necessary development within culture, but I think we've outgrown it in the west with our current understanding of how the world actually works.

In its place, I see some form of rational spirituality. It sounds absurd, I know, but I think we will soon understand what is happening in the brain during "religious" and "spiritual" experiences and that will drive us towards a reality based spirituality that works in tandem with science and reason instead of running madly toward the dark ages.

Okay, I hope that wasn't too rant like, either.

Yeah... we're sort of at odds because of a lot of that lately, but most of that began as an honest attempt to draw out good arguments. I think she is still thinking that I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

So it's like, half a lie. Is that better or worse?

I would ask yourself, "Is this something I will, or already resent?!"

If the answers is yes, then you need to deal with it, otherwise it's going to spill into other areas of your life, relationships, marriage, and simply confuse and aggravate.

If on the other hand you feel like this is something that, although not preferred, you can manage without it growing into a massive chip on your shoulder, then just play the game. Set aside time in the future to reevaluate, and forget about it until then, get it off your mind ASAP.

And on this one, Julia and I mostly agree. That's been a relief.

Were just having a hard time finding that, and the only one we found was such a big church that we spent 8 months there and never really... connected with people. So the search has picked up again anyway.

P.S. I'm off for a bit, the wife and daughter both have pneumonia and we're running back to the doctor.

I look forward to seeing how this all develops when I get back. The advice has been awesome. I can always count on the Cult.

...and if you do stick with it, I suggest eating away the tedium of a church service with some meditation or pick an idea or concept you have been meaning to further explore and work on that. Have a steno pad with your bible, and take notes on your thoughts, people will think you're taking notes on the service...

That reminds me of an essay I read called "The Science of Zen Buddhism" were the author claimed that the more science progresses, the more Buddhism is proven right. The basic claim was that Buddhism is understanding the universe without a microscope. Phil Jackson, the most successful coach of all time, pushes Zen Buddhism on his players with amazing results. I always thought that was awesome.

I also find Hinduism to be fascinating. Unfortunately I haven't studied it as much as I would have liked, but the biggest problem I have with it is that it seems a bit too intertwined with Indian culture.

The Tao Te Ching is a great religious work as well. It's great for analyzing paradoxes.

Concerning neuroscience, I think it can tell us how, but never why. Especially concerning ethics, the question is how ought things be, not how are they. Science is just a method of observation, it can't tell us how we should behave.

But I have always found it interesting that people go into meditative states when they pray. Furthermore, the Hindus and Buddhists meditate in different ways (one aims for decreased awareness of the material world and the other an increased awareness). Meditation has many benefits which extend beyond spirituality and I think it should be practiced regardless of one's concept of reality. But hell, hypnotism is almost just as mysterious yet it has nothing to do with religion.

btw, thnx Ology, glad I could entertain

Tony, I think more than anything, don't burn any bridges, and don't say anything you might regret. Yeah, you might be an atheist or an agnostic now, but can you guaruntee you're going to feel the same way in five or ten years?

I understand your family is nuts, you know that you and I are on the same page with that sort of thing. But you also have to realize that the way you feel about this, the way we feel about ANYTHING, can potentially be temporary. Moderation in this, and all things, especially if you think it's going to upset Julia.

I will say with the faith healing it sounds like your were brought up in a Christian environment that looks nothing like the Christianity of the Bible. I was recently reading this great article in Esquire (http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2009/shane-claiborne-...) and was amazed that what was written could be called radical Christianity.

How important is it to you to "come out"?

How important is your child's faith to you and does admitting your loss of faith worth her attempting to take after her father?

I don't think you should attach any label to yourself. They don't even exist. Well labels exist. What they supposedly define doesn't exist in any static form. How many countless different types of Christian are there? Yet they are all Christian?
Atheists are not much different. A bunch of people adhering loosely or fully to some idea.

Besides, what beliefs do Atheists spout, no God, no soul? I have always found anyone defining themselves as Atheist then becomes an Atheist Evangelist, just as irritating as a Xtian Evangelist.

Most Atheists have a very vague surface view of evolution, biology and physics. So when they begin to 'convert' someone, they use catchy little bits of logic and a few memorized passages from their texts? Does this remind you of anyone else?

Preachers and Evangelists are always going to be irritating humans who insist what they believe is the 'gospel'. Their egos won't allow anyone around them rest until they confirm their insecurities by having that person adhere to their ideas.

It is not the belief that causes me to Detest Xtians. I have no problem with Jesus or God. It would be as useful as hating Duke and Cobra Commander, fantasy characters. NO it is the way they insist on making everyone else as invested in the story as they are.

I find most Atheists exhibit the same behavior.

Tejun

Tejun, this is a thread about whether or not someone should admit to his family that he doesn't share some of their deepest beliefs. The exact 'labels' and your stereotypes of the people they represent don't really come into it, admitting whether or not you believe in god doesn't automatically make you a preacher. Just look at this thread, we have atheists and believers talking about their experiences and no ones trying to convert anyone. In fact, you're little rant could be seen as "catchy little bits of logic and a few memorized passages", it's pretty much the closest thing to preaching in here.

I agree there. And I can attest that even though it doesn't tell me how I should act, it helps me see how I should respond, or that I should simply not respond, in many every day things.

Even my wife has commented on occasion that she likes me better if I've been good about meditating, Zen style.

(I am trying to respond to everyone I can, please don't take it personally if I miss someone's comment somehow. I just think hitting quote over and over will take forever and use up a bunch of space.)

@bongosaurus: This is definitely where I've been, and I guess I just wonder if I can stay in this place and be content.

Oh, and I love that song.

@succotash moon: I "take notes" already. Great minds think alike, it seems. I have a Bible app on my iPod, but I routinely either make funny comments about scriptural inconsistencies in the margins, or just write about other stuff. Much of my blogging has been done during church.

@Six On The Dot: This is part of where I'm coming from. As it is, any time anyone gets a cold or whatnot, my mom goes to her crazy book of spiritual causes for everything and spends 30 minutes explaining which bible verses to pray to get the best results.

So if I am honest with them, I feel like they'll just turn up the volume in this stuff.

@jane s: Heh... I'm also good at saying things I wish I hadn't said. This is the line I'm trying to toe. (tow?.. no, toe is right, right?)

@Ology: I know all about Clairborne. He's got an interesting vision, to say the least. People in at least my family's circle don't like the guy mainly because he threatens their ideas about prosperity.

Oh yeah, my folks are waaaaay into prosperity gospel stuff.

@Biffb: Well, I dunno. I'm trying to gauge that. My daughter is only one, so within the next year or two, we will probably start talking about this kind of stuff. I anticipate a lot of issues between her mother and I if we see the world THAT differently as she grows up.

I just want to minimize those issues.

@Tejun: I agree, labels are usually nonsense. I'm cool with that. I don't want to just pick a new group in which to find my identity, to be sure.

It's more a matter of family decisions as our daughter gets older that I anticipate some possible troubles ahead.

If I did finally subscribe to atheism, I would certainly not be evangelical about it because I know how much it sucks to have beliefs shoved down your throat.

I came out of the closet with my mom this past summer. She was afraid I'd burn eternally for a little while, but I'm pretty sure I've convinced her that a loving god wouldn't torture innocent people. She's since gotten over it, but still believes in deluded stuff herself (both God and some gov't, which I'm working on). If your loved ones would make such a big deal about this that they would cut you out of their lives, perhaps you don't want them in your life. If that's the case, then it's not you that they love, but their image of you. I'd say warm up to it slowly, perhaps have some theological discussions that over time head in that direction. And give them the benefit of the doubt, they may get angry, but this should be relieved by you not reciprocating that anger.

I never used the 'A' word, and still don't. If asked, I describe myself as a nontheist.

Oh, and early on, my mom said she'd preferred if I was gay because I could 'still be saved', but I'm not sure how in jest that was.

Two things:

1: Like Six mentioned, I fear if my extended family found out they would just pursue me more rather than get used to it. I would almost prefer if they'd cut me out.

Hell, my wife and I both have issues with my parents lunacy. We're on the same page there 90% of the time. She just can't quite let it go.

2: I agree that the 'A' word is not helpful to me.

I mean, I'm a non-Harvard grad, but is that how I introduce myself? Do I tell people I'm non-black when I meet them? I'm a non-Chevy driver. Why should I define myself by what I'm not?

This.

Your beliefs are your beliefs. There's no need to get everyone around you all stressed out because you think differently.

It's up to you. I agree it's placing significance on something to identify yourself as 'something-negative', but it's exactly what atheism, anarchism, agnosticism, etc, labels do (without god, without rulers, without knowledge respectively). If you're presenting a new idea, perhaps you have an 'idea-positive' label for it ('objective thinker' may work). However, when people ask your religious beliefs, they are in general asking if you believe in god. Atheist/nontheist is a way of saying 'no' with a label (I don't include agnostic in there because there are some agnostics who do believe). 'Atheist' just has baggage and there's a confusion in the definition, which is why I don't use it (I don't 'deny' god as atheism is often defined by, I just don't believe in him/it). You wouldn't define yourself as a non-Harvard grad unless we lived in a society of Harvard grads, in which case the label would take on some meaning. By using something without baggage like 'nontheist', people have to stop and think for a split second what it means, just because its new. It's unlikely they'll picture Richard Dawkins in their head the way they would upon hearing the word atheist.

I feel like I'm being condescending toward those around me when I don't tell them they're wrong when I think they are. I don't want my loved ones wasting their precious time concerned about their loved ones being tortured. That's a terrible guilt trip to lay on someone. Thus, those I care about are the ones who I'm open with my beliefs about. Single serving friends are the ones I don't bother conversing with regarding religion...or rather, if we converse, I'll judge whether or not they'll be able to handle a non-theistic perspective.

Aaaahhh... I'm torn!

It's like, do I care enough about them (the extended fam) to try to help them along toward not living in fear of hell?

Or do I place my wife and daughter's needs first and leave my extended family out of it because of the backlash I would get from them if I was open?

I'm leaving towards option two here. My wife and I are a lot closer in our beliefs, I just take it a step or two further.

this is serious. Look into the Baih'i faith. It totally wouldn't please your christian relatives, but it may please you.

I was actually raised in a similar situation. All the people I grew up with were baptist. I'm talking like, must have long hair, never wear pants or have sex, drink or swear, praise the Lord Jesus, Hallelujah, AMEN baptists.

But here's the thing. No matter what people tell you, it's just their opinion. Who says it has to be yours? I studied for a long time, wondering if my doubts were founded, or if I was simply "rebelling", but realistically, how can someone expect you to stake your eternal soul (if there is such a thing) on something that has no proof to support it?

And Six is right, you are never going to get anyone in your church/family to empathize with or understand the way you feel. But that's all faith in God is. It's a feeling. If you don't need it, don't force it.

The social aspect is quite different. Those church friends you have won't stick around if you "backslide". They'll stick around for a bit, do their do dilligence in trying to bring a brother back the flock or whatever, but that's it. They'll probably try to convince your wife to divorce you. It's extreme, but if your church is anything like the many I've had the misfortune of attending, you'll realize that church people can be some of the most stuck up unforgiving bastards you'll ever meet in your life. Their tolerance policy is to tolerate you as long as you tithe and agree with everything they say.

That's a tough one, man. Either fake the funk or risk losing shit that's important to you. But in the end, you gotta do you.

Just try to convert them to Catholicism. It is, after all, the only church started by Jesus. Once you're Catholic you can be forgiven for anything, so it doesn't matter how deviant and doubtful you become. Plus, Catholics are a blast to hang out with.

I think the problem here is the term "atheist" has some how become a negative term. As an atheist, I think that is bullshit. You can call yourself a nontheist, secular humanist, quijibo, etc. At the end of the day, you're only using those terms because religious people don't understand what they mean and since they don't, they have no reason to get offended/concerned/scared.

To me, that is just camouflaging the truth and isn't any better than just continuing to be a Christian for the sake of not dealing with it. Ultimately, you have 2 options: spend the rest of your life wearing a mask around your family, or be open with them.

I understand the former is probably the easier, but I think it is also the one that will make you the least happy.

I agree with this and going to add to it.
You really need to talk to your wife. This very well could be a marriage killer. I dont know you and you wife but you have to ask yourself, will this ruin my marriage?
I see a lot of problems with this, and I know it sucks and you may not be totally happy but you have just have to 'play along' for awhile.
I just think that once it gets it your in for a hard time of friends and family trying to 'bring you back' to the faith. The witnessing might even be unbearable.

Thanks, all.

And I think I'm basically at the point of squaring up with the missus. She and I aren't all that far apart with 90% of what we have stopped believing, which is great... and we've kept up with each other along the journey for the most part. It's just I've gone that last 10% and she isn't there yet. But who knows, maybe we're at different points on the same path anyway. That'd be cool.

So yeah, I think I'm going to just spill it with her, and then after the dust settles see how we should handle it with the family and all. Sort of a together decision. I just hate not being on the same page with her.

And you know, I've been sort of panicking recently about all this... but for real, if I'm honest, the wife is probably the last person I need to worry about. I'm sure my family would flip, but I know Jules better than that.

Now I almost feel bad for talking about her, as it were, without her knowing. Ish.

I guess some of it was wishful thinking.. like if I told them they'd finally lay off the overly spiritual satan is in your TV sort of stuff.

But yeah... it's not important. So long as the wife and I are cool. And I think we will be.

Again I agree with this. Its good that you and your wife are more than likely going to be just fine with this. But I can speak from experience that telling your extended family just isn't worth it. My brother, a couple years back at Thanksgiving no less, told all my family, my Italian Catholic family, that he was an atheist . ( I cant recall how it came up).
My poor grandmother cried for like an hour afterward.
Was he being honest? Sure. Heck Im agnostic myself and lean towards atheism, but my family has no idea and its just easier that way.

i want to know how god 'tortures innocent people'. that's a new one.

there was a moral to that story. and it's just that: a story. people should stop taking the bible so literally.

Imagine if the bible was actually a fictional novel way back when it was written and everybody knew it and it was like, the Twilight book of that generation but at some point in time, many many many centuries later, someone read it and convinced people it was real? That could happen with a book or movie out NOW. In the year 4000 they might actually believe vampires and zombies were real back in this age and make a religion around it.

This is very interesting to me because I grew up without any religion.
For me, this is equivalent of my sister comes out as a hardcore evangelical Christian, right?
If that happens, I will be really shocked and probably ask her why she believes in it and what not...
I will always think she is "wrong" but still love her anyway though...just avoid conversation regarding GOD or I may intentionally provoke her for a sake of good argument.
In the end, I don't really care what she believes as long as it makes sense for her and she is happy with it.
I'm just sayin'...

This. [Though I was in a Christian elementary school, I've never believed] What I've been reading in this thread is alien to me.

Most people already gave good advice, and I really hope it'll work out okay.

Spike wrote:

Love this

I completely agree with this. And I hope you don't think that's what I was doing I just really thought Spike's post was funny whether I'm Christian or not.

I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee loosed in heaven."
– Matthew 16:18-20 (NIV)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter

St. Peter was the first pope, assigned this position by Jesus.