Death Toll Count

they are interchangeable in terms of criticisms of the media--both of them criticize us as being "for" the "other side" when we print something they don't like.

and spare me the quotes from the articles i posted, as well. that was in response to your statement that no one has ever accused the media of being liberal, not whether or not that's true. as i've said about five times now, i don't think either side is right. the media is *neither* liberal or conservative. personally i think the fact that we do a pretty good job pissing off both sides is the best testament to that.

I only have to watch Fox News for 30 seconds to know that they have a pretty extreme conservative bias. Please do not take my criticism personally, I am criticizing the media companies as a whole, not individual reporters. However, when the heads a media corporation pick and choose what is shown, that, to me, represents a bias. It is actually fairly easy to see the bias. For example, the BBC is alot more moderate than the major American news services. The NY Times tend to me slightly more moderate than other newspapers. This is not something that I can prove, but when I read/watch the news I definitely pick up on a bias.

but you pick up on the bias you're most sensitive to. you pick up on the bias *you* want to see. that doesn't mean that from the standpoint of the people reporting the news, people are trying to spin things in some sinister way.

and yeah, FOX is slanted to the right, but then CNN is leaning pretty heavily to the left. if nothing else they balance out.

Whoa, CNN is not heavily left. That is a pretty extreme exaggeration. CNN is just not as biased to the right side as Fox News.

And yes I do pick up on liberal biases. News commentary websites like alternet.org, TomPaine.com, cursor.org, etc.. are definitely liberal biased. It just so happens that I agree with alot of them.

let's agree to disagree on this, ok DNT?

took the words right out of my mouth. i was just going to post that.

because after all...

[IMG]http://www.ihateaol.co.uk/misc/funnypics/arguing.jpg[/IMG]

i'm addicted to these things.

makes sense

twice as many british troops killed so far as americans.

The deaths are going to continue to build, especially since Bush is even saying that this war could be longer than expected.

Ha! But you said nothing about the CIA. I bet you can neither confirm nor deny that, huh? Location= USA. Yeah, well, Langley's in the US, last time I checked.

*snoogins*

I feel sorry for Tony Blair. He seemed like a nice guy, but he's gonna get assgrassed for this one...

[URL=http://www.propagandamatrix.com/thepropagandamatrix]Hmm....[/URL]

[URL=http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news070.htm]Hmmm... Part 2[/URL]

Seems pretty detailed. Now, it may be biased since Russia is against the war, but it seems pretty reasonable and they seem to know a lot of information and specifics. If nothing else, it's probably more trustworthy than American & Iraqi sources. *shrug*

In fact, this sounds very reasonable... I rike, sir, I rike.

Although, they say there were no mass surrenders, just a few dozen soldiers here and there. As opposed to US reports of 8-10,000 troops surrendering. Hmmm, interesting. Of course, what I'm reading right now is about yesterday's operations, so maybe I just haven't gotten to it yet.

[QUOTE]Ha! But you said nothing about the CIA. I bet you can neither confirm nor deny that, huh? Location= USA. Yeah, well, Langley's in the US, last time I checked.

*snoogins*[/QUOTE]

what?!?!?!?!

Iraqi Information Minister is saying civilian casualties in Basra are: 77 Dead & 367 Wounded.

this war is turning out not the be the cakewalk that many expected

Sadly, I must admit that I was one of those that thought it would be, Though I fully digress at this point.

Also. Large Facility (Specifically Chemical Weapons?) Plant found, 100 acres, camoflauged, in the desert (slightly removed from a town).

[URL]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81935,00.html[/URL]

waka waka.

So what's the latest US casualties count?

I haven't been paying much atention today, but it sounds like it got pretty bad. Heard on the radio that there were 200 dead/wounded, that was this evening...

That Russian site is saying this (as of March 23, 2003, 1200hrs MSK [GMT +3])....

"More accurate information became available regarding the losses sustained by both sides during the first three days of the war. The coalition has officially acknowledged the deaths of some 25 servicemen. However, intercepted radio communications show that the actual number of coalition casualties is at least 55-70 troops killed and no less than 200 wounded. The emergency dispatch of the "Comfort" medical ship closer to the combat zone is a direct indication of serious casualties. The "Comfort" is expected to arrive to the southern tip of the Fao peninsula later tonight.

It is more difficult to evaluate the losses of the Iraqi especially due to the air strikes. On the south front Iraqi losses are estimated at 400-600 killed, 1,500 wounded and up to 300 captured."

And they were saying that as of Friday night (our time) there were approx 500 wounded civilians in Baghdad.

This is what the mainstream American media has reported so far:
[url]http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6178498%255E25777,00.html[/url]

[QUOTE]this war is turning out not the be the cakewalk that many expected[/QUOTE]

no fucking shit.

[URL=http://www.boston.com/news/packages/iraq/casualties.htm]Pretty good tally here.[/URL]

do these guys count?

[IMG]http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/mdf240000.jpg[/IMG].

it just makes me SO MAD. look at the looks on their faces...and yet people tell me that being anti-war is "not supporting the troops." WTF, so i'm supposed to support their being in that position?????? WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[url]www.iraqbodycount.org[/url]

Sigh. What was it Mark Twain said? "Loyalty to my country, always. Loyalty to my government when it deserves it."

I guess I'm still waiting for the day it deserves it.

Sigh.

Ah well, the power is with the people in the system, not the system itself. Chin up. Love everyone.

Yeah I was going to post that link, too, Will.

"it just makes me SO MAD. look at the looks on their faces...and yet people tell me that being anti-war is "not supporting the troops." WTF, so i'm supposed to support their being in that position?????? WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

Yeah, like I say whenever someone tells me anti-war = not supporting soldiers. "I'm the one that wants them home with their families, alive and well. You're the one that wants them out risking their lives."

Speaking of Mark Twain, [URL=http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/illuswarprayer.html]this[/URL] is nice.

i also saw a video clip from al-jazeera today of dead american soldiers. [URL=http://download.consumptionjunction.com/multimedia/cj_18764.wmv]wmv.[/URL]

also found a [URL=http://dear_raed.blogspot.com]weblog[/URL] written by an Iraqi in Baghdad. It brought me to tears.

I think this basically sums up any argument against the idea that the U.S. is fighting this war for liberation: [url]http://www.theonion.com/onion3911/dead_iraqi.html[/url]

DoNotTrip

its final YOU ARE A MORON

the onion is a satirical site

i once read a article on that site about some store clerk gunning down the customers, IN HIS MIND!

You know, I want to be at home with my wife and kid as much as the next guy, but I also like to know I've earned my paycheck. If you can say you appreciate their courage and conviction, great; if you can say you wish them safe from harm; ok; but to wish them back at home to them is... emasculating (disempowering might be more appropriate considering both genders). It's a mother's love, welcome as what it is, but less than what they want.

Don't get me wrong. I think the whole "we gotta support the troops" is a line of shit. If it's something you "have to" do, then what's the point? As if everyone should just give up their opinions because their hand has been forced. I've even heard it used to malign people with goals non-related to war that should just be put off because people don't want to deal with it now.

*shrug*

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bane [/i]
[B]DoNotTrip

its final YOU ARE A MORON

the onion is a satirical site

i once read a article on that site about some store clerk gunning down the customers, IN HIS MIND! [/B][/QUOTE]

No shit Sherlock. But the satire has a message.... forget it, I'm not explaining it. If you are too dense to catch the message then you don't deserve to have me explain it.

No, no. Please! You guys can't argue without at least one of you saying, "Neener neener neener" to the other.

It's the rules!

Reviewing some of the information found in this thread, I've come to realize that I cant make a conclusion as to whether I am anti-war or not. I see death on both sides. The possibility of fake information created for propoganda puproses exists on both sides. But then, death is unavoidable. Nothing good comes with out sacrifice.
It seems that the American belief is that to stop someone from killing, you must kill them.
I'm wondering what will be thought when enough time has passed to place this war into a historical context. Some will learn from it. Most will think of it as just another war of the past that doesnt concern them. Enevitably, a movie will be made and its effect will be much the same as any other war movie. Most people dont care, its in the past.
If one good thing came from 9/11 its that it made people realize that violent events around the world are real. How many of us cared about Kosovo or Yugoslavia? You care now. You're all ears. But will you continue to care after this war is over? Will you continue to protest? I doubt it. Its out of your hands.

Why is it that when the U.S. stumbles upon a chemical facility that is suspected to have manufactured weapons it makes headlines? However, when that same facility does not contain anything suspicious, it barely makes it to the back pages?
[url]http://www.fox29.com/news/story.asp?subsection=world&content_id=1548501[/url]

ok will

NEENER NEENER NEENER!

That's why we call major media in the US nothing more than propaganda.

I can't help but laugh everytime I hear some newscaster mention Iraqi news or some other craphole country's news. They always say "so-and-so's STATE RUN media" in some real derogatory manner. Ghee, like we're any different over here? Fuckin right...

look, i respect people's right to their opinion about the war, but for chrissakes. the worst argument EVER is, "well, it's already happening, there's nothing you can do about it. it's out of our hands." that's like, "well, the house is already on fire, no point in calling the fire department." or "well, the terrorists already bombed us, no point in trying to catch them" (and before you jump on me, the war on iraq has NOTHING TO DO WITH AL QAEDA OR CATCHING OSAMA BIN LADEN, you know it, i know it, so don't bother). i could go on...

So, how do you suggest we put out this fire?

A girl I used to hate went on an emergency all-night candle-lit vigil or something. Would that help, do you think?

I had someone at me to sign a petition the other day. A petition. Because of course if Bush gets a list of a few hundred names, he's gonna be thinking "Crap, I never realised....PULL OUT!" To be honest, I think there [i]is[/i] very little anyone can do at this stage (about the war itself). It's a lost cause. "Emergency all-night candle-lit vigils" and other such ventures seem to me to be nothing more than worthless self-promotion.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by insomnomaniac [/i]
[B]look, i respect people's right to their opinion about the war, but for chrissakes. the worst argument EVER is, "well, it's already happening, there's nothing you can do about it. it's out of our hands." that's like, "well, the house is already on fire, no point in calling the fire department." or "well, the terrorists already bombed us, no point in trying to catch them" (and before you jump on me, the war on iraq has NOTHING TO DO WITH AL QAEDA OR CATCHING OSAMA BIN LADEN, you know it, i know it, so don't bother). i could go on... [/B][/QUOTE]

But it is started... and there's no turning back. We closed that door behind us, so move on. Continue to criticise or approve, but:

Okay, I may be a lot of things, but closed-minded I'm not.
And maybe it's cuz I luv Kitty and the rest of ya, but I'll be gentle with you smart folks...

I'm tired of people's unwitted reliance on their own perception.
For or against? As a buddhist, I feel like there's just an unbalanced overabundance of self-righteous opinion (compared to our previous non-war state).
And whether there's a General telling the "for" story or the lesbian-protester-teacher telling the "against" story;
It's all flawed and biased information.

This is the closest we've come to treating a UN member (Iraq) like Hitler (Saddam) since WWW2- and not without reason.
Sure, us Americans have fucked with other dictators a lot, but nothing like this.
Two wars in the pastdecade with the same guy?
You can't deny he's fucked up and insanely evil.
But you can't deny that it's really none of our business either.
Based on what I know, we are on the verge of a major global change no matter how we cut it. This is only the beginning of a greater goal. The civilization of the world.
We'll all be fucking suits in a decade or two.
I want peace, but I don't believe that we get there by letting someone torture kids in front of their parents. That;s fucking HITLER FOLKS!!!!!
Don't deny Saddam is the shit nightmares are made of.
Then again, you are being propogandized and so is Iraq. And so am I.
At the same time, WOMD? America owns the most in the world! So what, we win? But you cna't have any because we say so! Genaralizing, true. But exaggerating? NO.

The best weapon is propaganda... any advertizer could tell you that.
It's just all FUCKED.
All around- both sides are right and wrong... try that on the other wars! Don't work? This is the messiest war P.R. officials have ever seen. No matter who or what (good thing), we don't just say"kill those bastard fucks" on a golbal level. Watch CNN/FOX/Msn-
We've evolved a hair. Good, but we're not done. Obviously.

To see what I'm talking about, see a leak ...

on Kazaa: AC130_Gunship

Broadband users: Let me know what you think. I'm serving it up now, so get the footage while u can. I can't offer it much longer. It's footage from the brink. You won't see this on the news:
"Don't hit the mosque fucker!"

[email]valium25mg@kazaa.com[/email]
(not an email peeps... captain obvious to the rescue!!!!!!!)

You're right about people getting all self-righteous and such about this, and I agree that a lot of the protestors are just out to gain recognition. Like when someone at your school dies, and all of a sudden EVERYONE was their [i]best[/i] friend.

People have got something to sell on both sides, too, as you mentioned. A lot of the anti-war/anti-government people are using this as a means to attract attention and then divert it to their own little pet project/theory/product. People supporting the war are doing the same thing. Problem is, people supporting the war are the ones that have the power to actually make it happen, and stand to gain so much and will put anyone and everyone's lives at risk for their own gain.

Er.. anyway..

You're right, and I'm sure Saddam's a nasty guy. It's proven by the fact that he hasn't left the coutnry. He's subjecting his people to war by sticking around. Doesn't make him evil, just makes him more concerned about himself than his country. Which could be said about most US politicians, as well. But yeah, he's not a good guy, but this certainly isn't Hitler-style shit. Even Hitler's acts have been exagerated. All our enemies get villified to a ridiculous level, but they do the same thing to us, too. You've got pro-war people comparing Saddam to Hitler, but then you've got anti-war people comparing Bush to Hitler, too.

I don't know, I don't really have a line of thought on this, I'm just kind of wandering. Bear with me, if you can.. Heh.

"The best weapon is propaganda..."

Absolutely. And the US has the best propaganda in the world. But you know, most people see that word and they think of other countries. Of self-proclaimed dictatorships. Or US-declared dictatorships. Sure, it's getting more commonplace for people to consider America using propaganda, but still, people only see it in commercials, on the News and when politicians give speeches. But it's everywhere. It's in the movies, in tv shows, hell even in cartoons. It's everywhere you go. How many movies do you see where the terrorists are Arab? All of them, pretty much. And people will say "well that's just the way it is, deal with it." You know what? Fuck you. That's not the way it is - remember the Oklahoma bombing? Or that little bunch of racists that everyone loves, the KKK? They're a fucking terrorist organization. Sure, they're not as active or violent as they used to be, but they're still around. Just 10 years ago they marched down Main Street of the town I live in.

It's everything, though... We're brought up to see that this is the way the world works. That our government doesn't lie, that we're all about freedom, etc. And it's just all so much bullshit. No other nation in the world can even come close to competing with the level of brainwashing, and I hate to use the word, because it feels like a cop out, like something that's not real, that doens't happen, but it is real, and it does happen. We are brainwashed. Not in the Hollywood-spinning-coin style, but in a much more subtle way.

So I'm ranting, and I'm not sure how I should wrap this up...

I live in the US, so it's the first country I'm going to criticize. And as the most powerful country in the world, both in military and propaganda, we require the most responsibility. That's up to the citizens, to keep the government in line. It's everything the Founding Fathers said... And sure, that's just more propaganda to glorify this country. But all their ideals, the ideals that we use to justify our criticism of foreign countries, yet rarely use on ourselves, [i]are[/i] some good ideals. Sure, it's starting to get trendy, I guess, to be against all this. It always was trendy to be anti-government in some circles.. But this is something I got into before the war was an issue, and I sincerely feel like something needs to be done. Something needs to change. So protesting and candle light vigils and petitions aren't the way to do it. But at least these people are taking some positive steps, even if they are only doing it to look cool or gain recognition. Doesn't change the fact that they're doing something good.

This is long. I apologize.

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

Everything and anything is fake, or a lie, or propaganda, or bullshit, or whatever. Everything. That's why I place so much emphasis on my own perception. I can't trust anything, not even myself, but it's my best bet. There is so much bullshit all around us, but when you're listening to what someone is saying about this or that, or reading an article on this or that, just think about motives, try to separate it from what else you've heard or read. What seems real? Just follow your intuition... Seriously. Maybe it's just me, but if you just shut the fuck up, for a moment or two, and listen to what's really deep inside you, seems you can pick the hidden pieces of truth out of every pile of bullshit that you're confronted with.

And yeah, I've seen that video. Go USA. Show them ragheads who's superior. Hoo rah. And such.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by disx [/i]
[B]But it's everywhere. It's in the movies, in tv shows, hell even in cartoons. It's everywhere you go. How many movies do you see where the terrorists are Arab? All of them, pretty much. And people will say "well that's just the way it is, deal with it." You know what? Fuck you. That's not the way it is - remember the Oklahoma bombing? Or that little bunch of racists that everyone loves, the KKK? They're a fucking terrorist organization. Sure, they're not as active or violent as they used to be, but they're still around. Just 10 years ago they marched down Main Street of the town I live in.

It's everything, though... We're brought up to see that this is the way the world works.. [/B][/QUOTE]

i really like the way u think. although opinionated (me too), this was one of the sharpest posts i've read here so far.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by disx [/i]
[B]

I live in the US, so it's the first country I'm going to criticize. [/B][/QUOTE]
damn. i only noticed this the second time around.
exactly.

"as a Buddhist blah blah blah blah blah blah blah."

man, love right back atchya but shut the fuck up. don't talk that pretentiously and then tell me, just as pompously, that i know nothing.

For those who know, do
Scooby-Dooby Dooby Doo!
For those who do, know

Dunno how valid [URL=http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=530211&t=-1]this[/URL] is, but if it's true, then um... wow.

Heh, just saw on CNN that one of the US commanders was saying "If an Iraqi civilian is coming towards you, even if he's just waving a stick - shoot him."

But really, we're [i]liberating[/i] them. [b]Promise[/b].

MIN is 283
MAX is 391

[url]http://www.iraqbodycount.net/[/url]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by disx [/i]
[B]Heh, just saw on CNN that one of the US commanders was saying "If an Iraqi civilian is coming towards you, even if he's just waving a stick - shoot him."

But really, we're [i]liberating[/i] them. [b]Promise[/b]. [/B][/QUOTE]

What the hell do you expect? Saddam enforced faux-surrenders, to take advantage of how lenient we've been, and we got fucked over by that. What, do you want hundreds of troops to die just so that they'll never kill a civilian that was acting crazy that otherwise would have been freed?

When we go and attack someone as clinically insane as saddam, who uses civilians as a tool for strategy, things are going to get fucked up bad, and that's not our fault.

And don't say that this war is unjust, blah blah blah. Everyone already knows that and agrees, but right now the only thing we can do (in spite of what some people think) is wait until Bush stops wanking all overhimself in his imperialistic dreamworld, and hope that as many troops as possible make it back alive.

[QUOTE]Everyone already knows that and agrees, but right now the only thing we can do (in spite of what some people think) is wait until Bush stops wanking all overhimself in his imperialistic dreamworld, and hope that as many troops as possible make it back alive.[/QUOTE]

if we do that, less of them will. if we do that, we're just as fearful of our leader as the iraqi population is of theirs.

and it is already my opinion that saddam is not the only clinically insane one.