Death Toll Count

i agree with you. i would like to have this info too.
my best friend is an MP Sargeant, so i have an emotional tie to these statistics. he was in Jordan, but i don't know where they've moved him since Saddam's time was up.

i love you smart motherfuckers.

why did we try to fight these mofos?
their dick is so small (excuse me) - i just heard they fired 3 missiles that missed us completely.
we're the only ones killing ANYBODY.
what do you board members think of this?

basically it is murder and Bush should be tried as a war criminal, hopefully in his home state so we can give his stupid ass the death penalty

DNT that's awesome.

I want people to know the death count so people know that war results in death. If you watch CNN and whatnot all you get is how cool the war is. You see the cool weapons and the night-vision cameras and it seems like a playstation game. These news organizations fail to mention that people are being slaughtered and killed, so by keeping track of deaths we will be able to remember how atrocious war is.

We're not the ones that need reminding. It's the people that are glued to Fox that need it. =\

Me and my brother watch Fox. The horrifying stupidity makes for strangely compelling viewing. You're left constantly wondering if it's all really some big joke. I mean, they [i]can't[/i] be serious.

"You're watching Fox, fair and unbiased." Amen, brother.

horrifying stupidity watching is one of my favorite activities!! i get your point DNT but you know pictures are worth a bazillion statistics.

Guys, seriously. Stop making it out like Bush is the scum of the Earth.

Talk about Saddam.

He uses his chemical weapons on his own people. Do you realize that? Do you think it's okay for him to kill his own people, but it's suddenly a mortal sin for us to do it to them?

God, I just don't care anymore. Bomb the whole fucking world. Kill everybody. Just as long as there's no more complaining about all of this.

you honestly think that saddam leaving is going to end the killing there? get real. this war has nothing to do with us, and saddam couldn't possibly think of sponsoring an attack on the U.S. unless he wants to assure himself destruction. you think seizing iraq can stop terrorism?

this solves absolutely nothing. i've said it before: we only give a shit because millions in americans need fuel to power their stupid 5 mile per gallon SUVs.

and i'll throw this out for some of the people i've seen sharing their support of bush lately [not pertaining to anyone on here i hope, but it pisses me off all the same]

"i support the war and george w. because i'm republican and that's what republicans do" = fuck off

Not arguing for or against, mind you, but we kill our own people every day. If you don't count the starving from neglect, the dying from lack of health care or lack of treatment for drug addiction, there's always the death penalty, which to this day is still in contradiciton of the Geneva Convention.

People die and the world is a hard, brutal place. The question is, what are the ideas behind the events?

I'm tired of people acting like we're in the innocent '40's. When wars were fought between good and evil, and consumerism/capitalism was but a shadow lurking on the horizon.

The United States at this point, is a huge, ugly, fantastic machine that runs on oil. We don't have guarantees of oil, so if worse comes to worse, we will end up creating a war because of it. Now, I'm nowhere near saying this is a good thing. I hate the fact that we're all stuck with it because of decisions we didn't make. But that's how the country runs itself (Feeding off of less capable countries that are too worn down to argue), and if you don't like it, then move. Stop this complaining, because you're not going to change countless government issues, and the entire economy, by protesting how "Stupid this war is." That's like hopping on a rollercoaster, and complaining about how noisy it is.

I agree that this is nothing but an oil war. But people keep on acting like oil means nothing to us. But it does. Unless you're Ted Kaczynski.

And. well. eh.

move? bullshit...its our government and i won't stand to see it ruined by inept dipshits.

I understand that. But protesting does NOTHING. Nor arguing against it with every other sentence that comes out of your mouth.

If you want to force change, go to college, study your various things, run as a politician, get into a place of power, and change things (Or find some other way to actually EFFECT change, as opposed to annoying those who are in power now.) Anything else is just being lazy, if you really care about it.

i guess thats somewhat true, but the politicians are never the agents of change. the government has too much red tape. its better to take an indirect approach i realize writing and philosphy when it comes to politics has been on its way out since the 1800's but hopefully you get what im saying.

plus, i doubt dubya is losing sleep over what i have to say in a palahniuk forum, but you never know.

Well yes, and that goes in my other ways of effecting. There are thousands upon thousands of ways you can effect change in a non-political forum. Pretty much none of them easy. And I'm tired of people saying this country is going in the shitter, while sitting on the sidelines like they're watching a movie. And as far as dubya losing sleep over what's said in here, well sure he's not. But it does annoy people like me. Who are easily annoyed.

and whatnot.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grade 5 dropout [/i]
[B]He uses his chemical weapons on his own people. Do you realize that? Do you think it's okay for him to kill his own people, but it's suddenly a mortal sin for us to do it to them?
[/B][/QUOTE]

You're a victim of propoganda if you believe this. Bush constantly claims that Saddam gassed his own people, so people believe him and decide that Iraq is evil.

What Bush doesn't say is that this happened FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. Reagan was President--why didn't he act then? The year was 1988, during the Iraq-Iran war. Iraq allegedly gassed the village of Halabja, and that's the story everyone just accepts. The truth is that both Iraq and Iran used chemical warfare in this war, and it's not even conclusive that it was Iraq who gassed the Kurds at Halabja.

Furthermore, tests showed that the deaths were caused by a cyanide-based gas (which was the same gas used by Iran throughout the war), when Iraq only had mustard gas available to them.

I'm not anti-war with Iraq, but I'm certainly not pro-war either. Iraq doesn't have the capacities to bomb the US, there is absolutely no evidence that links Iraq to Bin Laden or to Al Qaeda, and I don't feel that the case for an entire WAR has been made. I think we're so desensitized by the media and the government, that a vast majority of us don't comprehend the magnitude of declaring war, ESPECIALLY in such a resentful region of the world.

But because Bush is the commander in chief of the military, and he obviously has more information than any of us ever will, I don't protest the war. Bush is the President. When he was elected (and don't give me that bull shit that he wasn't), we all knew he would have this ability, and the American people entrusted him with this power.

And now, as nothing more than witnesses to history, we just have to hope that he knows what he's doing.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Eponymous [/i]
[B]But protesting does NOTHING.[/B][/QUOTE]

I really disagree. Becoming a senator or representative or congressman will secure you a vote, but the spread of information can change the world. It's only by NOT protesting that you do nothing, it shows complacency and agreement with the current situation. In a republic, it's the people that vote and deicde who represents them. By affecting the minds of the people, you can affect their values. As the values of the public changes, so will the values of the government, foreign policy, and the entire world.

If you think protestors don't affect how people think, then you need to learn more about the civil rights or the women's rights movements of the past century in our country alone, or maybe it's just time to open up your own mind.

If you don't believe that one person can make a difference, then it's only YOU who will never change the world.

Gandhi defeated Britain by protesting. Enough said.

Any updates on death toll and casualties (on both sides)?

Okay, so I was exaggerating. I know all about the various protesting facts. To be honest, I really just don't like the protestors [I]nowadays[/I]. Gandhi, great guy, and he had a good thing going. Women's Rights movements, same thing. But lately, really, I haven't seen a whole lot of changing because of it. Just a whole lot of people who don't know what they're talking about walking in circles and screaming.

Sorry I was an idiot and completely dissed protesting, but I'm just naturally against it, because it seems like an easy way out. Anybody can say "Hey, war is stupid.", grab some cardboard and a sharpie, and go walk around, and not make a difference. But it takes determination to go out, work your ass off and well... effect things that way.

So, You can say all you want for protesting, but please don't tell me that you're completely nothing but all for it when you see some white guy covered in silver paint holding up a sign with a typo on it, while singing a bad parody song about abortion.

No you're totally right. There are a lot of stupid protestors. I saw on TV these kids that walked out of school not because they are against the war, but because they hate algebra, and they like the attention it gets them. When asked who was the leader of Iraq, this kid answered, "I think it's... I'm not sure... Osama bin Laden? Is that it?" But there are also idiots who are on the opposite side of every protest. But they don't represent everybody else, and they shouldn't discredit the necessity of protest and opposition. It's important to raise awareness on important issues, and I think there's an opportunity to learn something new everywhere you look.

There are also protestors and critics who are very intelligent. The government just chooses to ignore them because... well there are way to many reasons for this ignorance. The point is that protests and dissent from people like Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, etc.. provide valid opinions because of their education levels and intelligence. Even though the government continues to ignore us, we must continue to protest and speak out because it is our duty as citizens of this country.

I'm going to make this a sticky thread.

sticky thread?

Zinn and Chomsky, and people like them, I have nothing but the utmost respect for. In the small amount of books I've read by them, I've learned more then I have from any 'regular' news source. But I'm not lumping people like Chomsky in with the street protesters. If by protesting you mean writing a book against something, and holding conferences against it, then I am completely for that. But street protesting, is just silly. And that's all [I]I'm[/I] trying to say.

Well it says "IMPORTANT" but the admin options say sticky. But all it does is keep the topic permanently at the top.

I agree that street protesting doesn't achieve anything directly. However, it does accomplish the goal of getting the fact that people disagree out into the mass media. When people cram the streets of new york city, the average American watching the evening news may think to him/herself "hmmm maybe there is more to whats going on than what CNN and Bush tell me." It shows people who can't get to cities and conferences that they are not alone. It is people uniting in solidarity for a common cause. As long as the protests are peaceful, I say "On with the marches!"

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by drew [/i]
[B]Well it says "IMPORTANT" but the admin options say sticky. But all it does is keep the topic permanently at the top. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, cool. As long as people post about any deaths and casualties they hear about to make sure that this conflict maintains the human side and we don't become desensitized by the media.

I think someone said (Kitty maybe?) that we should post pictures. Now that is a good idea, but I don't know how I could get access to pictures of the carnage. Therefore, we must settle for the next best (worst?) thing.

media exposure may not be the best thing it seems...anyone watch fox at all yesterday? they had a clock counting down to the 48 hours hussein had to abdicate. they totally sensationalize and misrepresent everything. that kind of shit just pisses me off, and the media only succeeds in making a bad situation worse.

meanwhile, tom brokaw needs to fucking retire. the guy can't seem to put any more manufactured melodrama into a situation. i was sick of him by the end of 9-11.

you know, if the media just bit the bullet and gave us some carnage to look at, we might strike some nerves in the silent majority. instead we get this watered down patriotic bullshit that gives the public a false idea of war.

so im all for it: bring on the pictures. ill post any the second i find them.

well i just heard from the local news that the 16 Americans in the downed helicopter are confirmed dead.

Official count is now:
17 dead; 14 injured (probably more since I can't seem to find any info on the results of the recent bombings)

First, I agree with Eponymous that protesting is most often a futile act. Too many protesters are caught up in this idea of reviving the protest culture of the 60s. Get a clue, if we hadn't been losing the war, they wouldn't have gotten credit for anything. And remember, things got VIOLENT during the Vietnam protests. "The whole world is watching, the whole world is watching." That's effective protesting; taking a billyclub to the face will get attention.

So if you want to protest, fine. I'm not for protesting, I'm for positive action. Support humanitarian relief efforts. Support the United Nations. If you're really against the entire agenda of the US and believe it's a massive technocracy dedicated to eradicating freedom and gobbling up every natural resource, you can always renounce your citizenship and defect to another country. That might get some press. Or, you could just join the peace corps.

We are powerless to stop the war, but we are not powerless to change society and culture. Focus on doing what you can, and keeping an open enough mind to seize upon each opportunity. With that said, I admire anyone with the conviction to act as a human shield or whatever, but, I feel the act itself is futile and wasted, and ultimately, foolish. Change begins at home, we need you here.

Many protestors are involved in some sort of humanitarian organization. Protesting may be futile, but it is a way of expressing the opinion of many people, so it does serve a purpose. I think it is a real shame that our government ignores the voices of the protestors.

Look, I'm not pro-war, but I'm sure as hell not against it. But what I really really really [I]really[/I] hate, is how it's suddenly the new "cool" thing, so to speak, to be against the war.

EVERY SINGLE celebrity is against the war. EVERY SINGLE pop-star/"musician" is against the war. Suddenly people all over the country are like, "Hey, um...no war with Iran? Rack? Hungary? Um...Turkey? ::Giggles:: Whatever, but still no war! Because Sheryl Crowe and Fred Durst say so!" I fucking hate that. Everyone at my school is saying that they're against the war.

Well I say fuck 'em. Go ahead Bush. Bomb Iraq. Kill Saddam. Because I can guarantee Bush knows something that we don't.

I'm not against protestors, any sort of activism, pro-war, anti-war, is positive, if we want a participatory society. I simply feel that the act of protesting, in itself, is far and away inadequate to change anything.

As for the government not listening, well, that's because they don't have to. Most protestors can't threaten any relevant government interest. We block streets sometimes, but we never call all-out strikes. You've gotta stick it to 'em somehow...I don't have the answers, but that's how I feel.

Well saying that Bush knows something we don't sounds funny because of reasons we are all aware of.

Second of all, I don't see where being anti-war is the new cool thing to do. I am in a definite minority on my campus. We had a discussion about the war in my philosophy class today and I was 1 of 2 people against. It seems like every pro-war argument can easily be broken down into one thing "survival of the fittest." I find that humorous because when did mother nature give her power to humans.

Overthrow the current regime, and I am not talking about Saddam.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Misnomer [/i]
[B]
As for the government not listening, well, that's because they don't have to. Most protestors can't threaten any relevant government interest. We block streets sometimes, but we never call all-out strikes. You've gotta stick it to 'em somehow...I don't have the answers, but that's how I feel. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thats where civil disobedience comes in. If a city won't give you a permit to march, march anyway.

I think, that being anti-war is just a default for the uneducated people. If they don't know about the war, obviously it's just [I]gotta[/I] be bad, right? That [I]is[/I] what all those famous people have been saying, and they probably know more than I do, so why not.

Now, I'm of course not saying that all anti-war people are uneducated. That would a rude generalization, and I'm sure there are quite a few people who know what they're talking about (cough cough on this board cough cough) who are against this war. But it seems that the more popular uneducated guess among the public is "War is bad, mmkay?"

and that's that.

I base my knowledge on experience and according to my experiences, it is actually the contrary concerning the relationship to education level and war support. The more educated you are, the more you question the motives and legitimacy of the war. Less educated people tend to just nod their head when they hear Bush talking.

Then why does it happen that most uninformed people in the area of the war are anti-war? I know you have the opposite on your campus, but I can put in another vote with uninformed people being anti-war, with most people I know.

its all because it is the in thing to do
and most protestors protest so they can feel speshul

the best thing ive ever read
"im practicing my rights so the iraqis can never practice theirs"
-got that off a sign mocking someone who was at an antiwar rally

and most of the protestors that protest against shit like corporations either work at thise corporations or buy shit constantly from corporations

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Eponymous [/i]
[B]Then why does it happen that most uninformed people in the area of the war are anti-war? I know you have the opposite on your campus, but I can put in another vote with uninformed people being anti-war, with most people I know. [/B][/QUOTE]

On what do you base this knowledge? It seems to me like this is your opinion.

back in the 20's when women protested for womens rights
it was accepted because they werent VIOLENT!

thats why protesting does nothing because today people see protestors as people who just want to start shit or cause a riot

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bane [/i]
[B]its all because it is the in thing to do
and most protestors protest so they can feel speshul

the best thing ive ever read
"im practicing my rights so the iraqis can never practice theirs"
-got that off a sign mocking someone who was at an antiwar rally

and most of the protestors that protest against shit like corporations either work at thise corporations or buy shit constantly from corporations [/B][/QUOTE]

My response to this is that I can assassinate the President because Charles Darwin said I could.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bane [/i]
[B]back in the 20's when women protested for womens rights
it was accepted because they werent VIOLENT!

thats why protesting does nothing because today people see protestors as people who just want to start shit or cause a riot [/B][/QUOTE]

The last violent protest in my memory was the WTO protests in Seattle, which ironically was started by the police.

Well, It's my opinion in that it is true in the majority of people I've seen... Of course, the people I see, through some freak occurence, could be a statistical anomaly of anti-warism... so. I don't know, anymore.

hey be my guest hes not the prsident and i tecumshes curse works out he will die soon

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Eponymous [/i]
[B]Well, It's my opinion in that it is true in the majority of people I've seen... Of course, the people I see, through some freak occurence, could be a statistical anomaly of anti-warism... so. I don't know, anymore. [/B][/QUOTE]

What people have you seen?

I don't think you'd know any of them by name, what with them just being... people I know.

ok, so you were just making a gross generalization that had absolutely no scientific or factual basis.

And the gloves come... off? No, I was just stating the opinion of the people I know, which is the only thing I can be certain of, as far as opinion goes (Go CNN polls, go), which you did a few posts earlier stating that most people you know were pro-war on your campus. I'm not saying that I'm infallable, and everyone I know has the opinion of everyone else, I'm just saying what I [I]know[/I]. If that's an act of idiocy, well, sorry about that.