Caster Semenya is a....?

Maybe she just has a giant clitoris and that is whats throwing people off. She could be hyena. They test for that?

Also, I'm moving this to politics and current affairs.

Oh, my bad.

Isn't she a hermaphrodite? I mean, yeah, chromosomes determine these things. XX is a female, XY is a male, but there are those who're XXY who have a gender assigned to them by their parents at birth. Usually, if i remember correctly, they assign them as female because the operation to make the genitals look normal is easier. Then, when they hit puberty, they need to take hormones in order to go through puberty.

So, i reckon she's probably an XXY and has had a female gender all her life. She may not have even been aware that she wasn't technically a girl until all this came up. So, yeah, it's all in the chromosomes, but that doesn't necessarily make it easier.

Chromosomes determine sex, not gender. Gender is the product of one's environment and the way you were raised. Trucks vs. dolls. That's gender.

Trucks vs. Dolls is also a new show on SPIKE TV!!!!

Someone suggested that she might be a hermaphrodite, but no one confirmed anything.

Also, Sex defines Gender in a medical sense, not the other way around. And that wasn't the question anyway.

Yes chromosomes determine sex but gender is not defined by trucks vs. dolls or the way you were raised.

nurture vs. nature

there are a few cases we learned in my human sexuality class to explain gender.

It's determined by how that person perceives themselves(in heart and mind) and what's between their legs(penis/vagina).

For example the John/Joan case:

This boy who had complications during his circumcision, doctors decided it was easier to make a hole than a pole and advised the parents to raise him as a girl. although he was obviously born male John was now Joan. Joan felt her whole life that something was wrong and didn't feel comfortable in her skin 'til one day it was revealed that she had been born male. Joan decided she no longer wanted to be put on hormones and returned to being male.

http://www.infocirc.org/rollston.htm

Nurture failed.

This is also why we have transgenders.

It's not always what's between the legs and is definitely not determined by the way we were raised but how we feel or think we are supposed to live.

Yup. However, it is no longer clear what it means to be "biologically female".

Or, rather, even less clear now than it was previously.

Sure, but when is a vagina not a vagina?

And what if you've got a vagina and some testes? Okay, we check your DNA. Hm, it's and X and a V, now what?

Gender testing or SEX TESTING, for people with their panties in a bunch about semantics...Has always been determined by chromosomes because they are the one thing you cannot alter, at least not yet.

I don't have anything against transgender people, pre op, post op, or what have you, but a decision to alter your lifestyle/identity isn't going to change your genetic makeup. The rule of "you must be a XY or XX to participate in the respective catagories" is there for a reason.

I didn't mean for this thread to go off on a tangent really, but I was trying to figure out why gender testing went out the window in the first place? And why did it take so long to figure out what gender she is?

Respect for gender privacy goes out the window when you intentionally place yourself in a world televised event in which PHYSICAL PROWESS is the primary focus...

So, if you're XXY and an olympic caliber athlete, you shouldn't be allowed to compete because you're a genetic anomaly?

Well, she'd only really be able to compete against Lady Gaga, amirite?

In all honesty though, from what I understood during the peak of all of this publicity was that Caster has INTERNAL testicles. Meaning, they never dropped/couldn't drop. This doesn't necessarily mean she's a man (okay, it does) because they were internal.

I think she should be allowed to compete.

I thought athletes were genetic anomalies? That's what makes them athletes.

Look at Michael Phelps whose body can flush out lactic acid (the acid that causes muscle soreness) in minutes whereas a normal human being takes hours to do that. Should he be banned from competing as well because his body is capable of feats that normal humans can't match?

What if by chance I had an internal vagina? Would I then have to box females? Would it be battery if a man struck me?

It's not like she hid her testicles up in there. She didn't even know she had them so what difference does it make in the grand scheme of things?

There's no proof she's even a hermaphrodite. Someone SUGGESTED that. The government refuses to release the test results. NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THE FUCK SHE IS....

Anywhoo. The woman beat everybody. Men and women. Clearly the women's division is not a competitive place for her.

what she has is either congenital adrenal hyperplasia or androgen insensitivity syndrome.

here's androgen insensitivity syndrome

https://health.google.com/health/ref/Androgen+insensitivity+syndrome

and to compare here's congenital adrenal hyperplasia

https://health.google.com/health/ref/Congenital+adrenal+hyperplasia

They should have to run in the special olympics. The gender-challenged category. They'd make a killing against all those retards.

This is NONE of our business.

The fact she has been allowed to retain her medals and titles shows us that, regardless of the test results, this was not an act of fraud, and if there is some kind of 'issue', no one, including Semenya herself, has been aware of it. Beyond that, we have no right to know a damn thing about her anatomy, and any desire to find out is purely voyeuristic and sensational.

Also, according to the IOC, one can compete in women's events if they have had sexual reassignment surgery and have been on hormones for 2 years.

I blame the Jews.

I can't speak for the IOC or anyone really, but I think the idea was that after two years of post-surgical hormones, 'chemically' speaking one is female. Everything else is much trickier though...even though the average for the sexes is quite different, there is overlap, meaning you have women with much larger frames, more muscles tone, less body fat, than some men, and some men with smaller frames and less tone than the average woman, so where is the real line?! Technically speaking, a woman with a more masculine frame and muscle development is going to have a better advantage than a transsexual with a slight frame...

The point is I believe that, in gender specific events, issues like frame size, muscle mass, body fat, cannot be dividing factors, as many woman would not be allowed to compete...all you are left with is sexual anatomy and hormones as the real seperation...

Again, I am not arguing for or against this point, just laying it out as I originally heard it explained...

Fuckin' sports.

It is our business because s/he's a public athlete who may potentially be cheating. If she has both male and female genitalia and competes with the women, then she's using her masculine advantages to win. The way I see it, XXY should have to compete with the men b/c they have the hormones which are present in men that make us better athletes.

Furthermore, since it got brought up, people who have changed their sex through surgery shouldn't be allowed to compete in athletic events. The man that turns himself into a women has natural physical advantages, the woman who turns herself into a man must take hormones (i.e. testosterone/steroids) to complete the process. It's not baseball

The fact that she was allowed to keep the medals doesn't prove that this wasn't an act of fraud. It is just as likely that these waters are too murky and they're afraid of retaliation from the PC-police. Considering that the test results aren't being made public, I would bet this is the case.

Take that, gender equality!

I say if the PC folks want everyone to be equal, then let's eliminate men's and women's categories. Otherwise, let's admit there are differences and actually address issues like this one. Sweeping it under the rug only promotes some tacitly implied don't ask/don't tell policy.

Like razorsharp said, they're a public figure. I don't have the right to know if my neighbor is man/woman or some combination of the two, but an athlete competing in a public sport... they have to realize the public is what makes the sport possible. With no one watching, there would be no sport for them to participate in. (Though that doesn't explain curling... but I digress) So when an issue like this comes up. it is our business.

Singers, not so much. Neighbors, not at all. But athletes, definitely.

I still do not see how or why her being a public figure, an athlete, has anything to do with us needing to know her status...there is nothing to suggest this cannot be dealt with discretely, so why do you, as a spectator, need to know, and more importantly, WANT to know?!

If any of us had any business in this issue, we'd probably know by now...but we don't, and more than likely won't..

But you forget the fact that if she were to suddenly switch from competing against women to competing against men, people would notice and ask questions. Lots of questions.

It would be virtually impossible to tell people, "Well, it's none of your business." or "It's personal."

No official, athlete or spectator would just say.. "Oh... alright, I guess."

So leading a public life does open you up to all sorts of scrutiny.

I am trying to empathize with the idea of privacy issues, but this is not their private life. This is now their public life. I still have no desire to know if this athlete sits down when they pee, none of my business. BUT, if they have an unfair advantage, that matters in a public way.

All the reasons given in this thread why we should know are actually reasons why the governing body should know...which they do. They are the ones to deal with this, and even if she should end up racing men, so what if questions are raised?! The only reason whatsoever spectators or competitors may have any need to know is if they feel the governing body itself is crooked, and to be honest, the idea of them not releasing information suggesting there was fraud involved due to the 'PC-police' is ridiculous, they have every reason imaginable to keep their sport clean and transparent. Why the hell would they be so secretive with this girl, and yet have no problem publicly banning one of their biggest superstars, Marion Jones, for two years on steroid use?! It makes zero sense.

My point IS, if you can't trust the governing body to handle this situation without your knowing the specifics, why the fuck are you a fan anyways?! Which gets to a larger point, this has NOTHING to do with spectators wanting a clean sport, because I promise you NO ONE except for the most diehard of fans could even name another female middle-distance runner, nobody gives a shit! All this outcry for disclosure is purely to feed the sensational desires of the mob, the vast majority of which have never watched an 800-meter race in their life.

I mean do you really expect me to believe that, had this issue been about failure to disclose evidence on steroid use in the women's 800-meters, anyone would even know a thing about it?! No...one...would...care, NOBODY! The only reason ANY of you give a shit is because it's about sexual anatomy...this has NOTHING to do about truth, about disclosure, and about clean and on-the-level track and field!

FYI, this shit happens A LOT, it isn't even the first time it's happened in this specific EVENT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhi_Soundarajan

Soundarajan won a silver medal in the women's 800m race at the 2006 Asian Games held in Doha, Qatar in December 2006 clocking 2 minutes, 3.16 seconds. However, she underwent a sex test shortly afterwards, and the results indicated that she "does not possess the sexual characteristics of a woman". Soon after the results of the sex test came out, she was stripped of her silver medal

OMG, remember when that happened?! That was so crazy! It was SUCH a massive and important issue that I am sure I didn't even need to post a link, I mean who could forget!

So, just out curiosity, why on earth would they NOT release Semenya's test results, NOT strip her of her medals, and make no claims or decisions on her future racing career?! They have certainly had no problem with it in the past! Perhaps they are more sensitive to the issue now, I would certainly hope so, but again, I can't imagine she 'cheated', and again, I don't see why it...is...any...of...our...business.

I do agree, the issue hits very much at home, and I really cannot express in words to what an extreme people feel they have a 'right' to know your sex 'status'...it's a very touchy issue with transfolks, even AMONG tranfolk. Nobody actually NEEDS to know what is in my pants, but for some reason everyone WANTS to know, fucking strangers I have never met will ask me point blank and see nothing wrong with it, as if it's a harmless inquiry...so yea, this isn't a good topic for me to debate...

But lets forget that for a second, and forget the fact she's a 'public' figure...she's an 18yo girl, who may or may not have just found out she's not biologically 100% female. She may never be able to have children, and god help her if she likes dudes as she's going to have a big scarlett dick tacked on her chest the rest to her life...

To say the least, her life is probably upside-fucking-down, and she probably didn't intend or mean to confuse anyone! I don't care who the fuck you are, the kid deserves a little fucking privacy, and if we as spectators can't give her that, then fuck us!

No she doesn't, she only has to be accountable to the people who DECIDE who can run as a woman and who can't. As much as everyone likes to think they have any say in this whatsoever, they don't, and the governing body in control of this does not need our fucking help.

I mean what if you did know?! What difference would it make?! Would you sleep better at night?! You still don't decide whether she can run or not, you have no say, none of us do...

I don't think it's a matter of "right to know". Like any sport with heavy biological testing (be it for steroids, hormones, chromosomes, etc), everyone is supposed to be competing on an even playing field. Yes, they could run these tersts behind closed doors. What then? If the test results in any way negate her accomplishment, they could make a bland announcement that she was being stripped of her win, and then the media would begin to speculate and ask questions anyway.

It's honestly none of our business what any athlete does, or who they are, behind closed doors. Tiger Woods extramarital stuff bores me, and it amazes me that people salivate to know more. Same with John Daley's drinking. Same with Bobby Knight's rage issues, or any players sexual orientation.

It becomes a public issue when those factors affect other athletes competing in the same events. In this case, it may not have, but there was no way to get to the point of clearing her without opening pandora's box.

/unintentional pun

Mike, well put. Half the time I wish I'd just not said anything after you make sense.

Well then I guess you won't be sleeping too soundly anytime soon...

Hahaha...

Look, all I'm saying, and I swear to god I'll shut the fuck up after this, there is already a system of rules, regulations, and staff in place to make sure everything stays on-the-level, and unless we have a very good reason to question those involved in making these decisions, then it's a done issue. We really don't need to know these things unless we think we're getting fucked over by the system, and if the system isn't trustworthy, then a dude running as a chick is the least of our worries...

Personally, I think something is probably up, but they are trying to be diplomatic about it, and I don't think she'll be running again...but I am quite sure if she does run again, as a woman, then I have no reason to believe whatsoever that she isn't, by the definition already in place, a woman.

Whoa! Drupal says I may only say, "Fuckin' sports" once.

They used to have rules and regulations in place for this specific issue, based on other people with the same allegations being brought against them. But for undisclosed reasons, ceased gender testing in 1999. I looked for articles as to why this happened, and there wasn't much of an explanation past "there were too many inequities" but I don't really understand what that means.

I agree with you that the gen pop doesn't need to know her gender, but of course I think that at this point, people are curious due to the news coverage. I do think that someone should monitor gender as it is a physical event and if I were an athlete, I would want the best chance possible to be able to bring home a medal. I see no problem with allowing her to keep her medal if she was unaware of her condition, it's not like she was cheating. But I think if I were her I would want some sort of statement to be made on my behalf...but that's just me.