Do you think (some) video games are art?

Only if you make a NES controller into a belt buckle.

[QUOTE=Spike]Only if you make a NES controller into a belt buckle.[/QUOTE]

SRSLY?

:grumble: Soooo, nobody here even touches videogames?

Lots of us do. We had a mini version of this conversation not too long ago, Ico was brought up, I'm pretty sure if we talked it over again we'd cover Zelda: Twilight Princess.
Looooaaads of us like videogames.
I still think the cel shading on Wind Waker was hotter than hell, looked like art to me.

I'll never be more impressed with graphics than how I was the first time I played Donkey Kong Country on the SNES. Remember thinking 'It ain't gonna get better than this!' It did and it didn't, but it made me pretty whoa.

looking at a video game as one would a book, in judging it as art
i can see silent hill 2 as art but aside from that nothings coming to mind

[QUOTE=nintenho]First, say how you define art, then say why video games do or don't qualify.

personally, I think that art can be defined as regression, expression can be defined as innovation, and nostalgia would be when you aren't suspicious of either. When you analyze video games under that philosophy, only a few games can actually be considered art. So I think that only some video games could qualify. However, I will admit that some games like Metroid Prime seem more well made than just about any movie I have ever seen.

Yes, I do know what Chuck Palahniuck's opinion is on video games and I just can't forgive, understand, condone, or even pity such apathy. Nobody plays frikkin' Pac-Man anymore.

Note: Please do not say your opinion if you haven't played video games in more than a decade. They changed a bit...[/QUOTE]
WHats with youand your rules. Yuo dontmake the rules CHaump. vIdeo games are cool but I wouldn't be hangin tehm up on a wall..that woudl just be silly. Getoff my lawn.

[QUOTE=Smartazboy]WHats with youand your rules. Yuo dontmake the rules CHaump. vIdeo games are cool but I wouldn't be hangin tehm up on a wall..that woudl just be silly. Getoff my lawn.[/QUOTE]

ho ho. frank is back from the bar!

The bathroom attendant wasnt workintoday. SHucks. Gonna be me and rosey tonight

[QUOTE=Smartazboy]The bathroom attendant wasnt workintoday. SHucks. Gonna be me and rosey tonight[/QUOTE]

hopefully she is wearing a bikini.

we aint goin swimmin.

Aw look at him drunk posting away there, so cute!

Art tends to be about more than just being esthetically pleasing, it's about expressing emotions and concepts.

Instead of us giving examples of why video games aren't art I think you should be giving us examples of video games that are art.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]Aw look at him drunk posting away there, so cute![/QUOTE]

yeah, little smarty isn´t he just pure sweetness!

[QUOTE=Smartazboy]WHats with youand your rules. Yuo dontmake the rules CHaump. vIdeo games are cool but I wouldn't be hangin tehm up on a wall..that woudl just be silly. Getoff my lawn.[/QUOTE]

:bling1:

[QUOTE = mikendrews] look at him drunk posting away there, so cute!

Art tends to be about more than just being esthetically pleasing, it's about expressing emotions and concepts.

Instead of us giving examples of why video games aren't art I think you should be giving us examples of video games that are art.[/QUOTE]

I said Metroid Prime didn't I?!!?

hey, nintenho! did you know we have a video game forum here at the cult?
[url]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=20[/url]
oh yes!! it's pure gaming nirvana there, and, get this, people that post there are into video games just like you! check 'er out

[QUOTE=moe.ron]hey, nintenho! did you know we have a video game forum here at the cult?
[url]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=20[/url]
oh yes!! it's pure gaming nirvana there, and, get this, people that post there are into video games just like you! check 'er out :)[/QUOTE]

sorry about that.

don't apologize!! the cult is a big place with lots of good stuff to be seen. not even 1/2 of it comes from general discussion, either!

[QUOTE=moe.ron]don't apologize!! the cult is a big place with lots of good stuff to be seen. not even 1/2 of it comes from general discussion, either![/QUOTE]

A'ight:stups:

[QUOTE=nintenho]I said Metroid Prime didn't I?!!?[/QUOTE]

Fine..."and why?", there. Why do you think that game in particular should be considered art? What's it trying to express?

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]Fine..."and why?", there. Why do you think that game in particular should be considered art? What's it trying to express?[/QUOTE]

Okay, fair enough. I wasn't saying what that game did specifically. First off, there's the controls. It's a first person game with lock-on targeting because the way it works is that you have to watch how fast your laser beams, the enemy's movement, and the enemy's attacks are and this prevents the gameplay from becoming at all straightforward or imbalanced. Second off, there's the atmosphere. It's hard to describe it but you [I]could[/I] go to ign.com or somewhere to look at videos of it. Everything just melds together to make the most viscerally perfect piece of media ever.

If there is anything you specifically want me to clarify on, please say so.

Metroid Prime really didn't look all that special to me. Clean yeah, but sort of bland.

[QUOTE=nintenho]Okay, fair enough. I wasn't saying what that game did specifically. First off, there's the controls. It's a first person game with lock-on targeting because the way it works is that you have to watch how fast your laser beams, the enemy's movement, and the enemy's attacks are and this prevents the gameplay from becoming at all straightforward or imbalanced. Second off, there's the atmosphere. It's hard to describe it but you [I]could[/I] go to ign.com or somewhere to look at videos of it. Everything just melds together to make the most viscerally perfect piece of media ever.

If there is anything you specifically want me to clarify on, please say so.[/QUOTE]

All that just means that it's a nice piece of media/an elegant form of entertainment. Yeah, the people who designed the way it looks and the people who made the music for it may have many of the same talents that artists have but I wouldn't say it was a form of self-expression. You could boil it down the statement that video games are not art because they are designed to make money, at no level were they really created by a person driven by a desire to express themself.

[QUOTE=188416]Metroid Prime really didn't look all that special to me. Clean yeah, but sort of bland.[/QUOTE]

It was actually the way it avoided using metaphors to gain respect that I liked.

[QUOTE=Michael].[/QUOTE]

It was actually the way he uses metaphors to gain respect that I hated him for.

[QUOTE=mikandrewz]All that just means that it's a nice piece of media/an elegant form of entertainment. Yeah, the people who designed the way it looks and the people who made the music for it may have many of the same talents that artists have but I wouldn't say it was a form of self-expression. You could boil it down the statement that video games are not art because they are designed to make money, at no level were they really created by a person driven by a desire to express themself.[/QUOTE]

What I'm trying to get across is how much the game changes your mindset.

[QUOTE=nintenho]What I'm trying to get across is how much the game changes your mindset.[/QUOTE]
You have changed my mindset from, "Everyone has the right to post," to "Ban that fucktard!"

Does that make you art?

[QUOTE=Michael]You have changed my mindset from, "Everyone has the right to post," to "Ban that fucktard!"

Does that make you art?[/QUOTE]
I think so.

Duke Nukem was art because you blow away pigs and lizards and brain octopuses and save strippers and shit.

[QUOTE=Brother Supremo]Duke Nukem was art because you blow away pigs and lizards and brain octopuses and save strippers and shit.[/QUOTE]
damn i played that game years ago !
did they make one for ps2 or xbox ?

for me video games can be art. for example all 8 bit games that can be threated like that.
I remaber that one guy made "carpet invaders" based on "space invaders" but with elements of ships and aliens changed into symbols from carpet that looked like 8 bit video game.
For me art is "another worl" known also as "out of this world", or "Rez" that looks like old 8 bit games. In times when even a toilet paper puted in art gallery can be an art I belive video games can also be art. It only depends on contects in which you put it. :eek:

2 words

"leisuresuit larry"

or is that 3

i can only see games being defined as art if they have a fixed story line that aims at describing a message and instilling a sage like piece of wisdom. most games are just ambiguous shit and the gamer provides "the story" or action and no set message is derived. as for the actual textures and grapics, its very low level art because in most cases the game or action takes precedence over it and the gamer is generally oblivious to it, concentrating more on blowing lots of shit up.

basketball on the "atari 2600" is also verging on art .
its gotta be, the basketball was a square. damn that was quality gaming.

[QUOTE=fattyowls]2 words

"leisuresuit larry"

or is that 3

i can only see games being defined as art if they have a fixed story line that aims at describing a message and instilling a sage like piece of wisdom. most games are just ambiguous shit and the gamer provides "the story" or action and no set message is derived. as for the actual textures and grapics, its very low level art because in most cases the game or action takes precedence over it and the gamer is generally oblivious to it, concentrating more on blowing lots of shit up.

basketball on the "atari 2600" is also verging on art .
its gotta be, the basketball was a square. damn that was quality gaming.[/QUOTE]
That's why I'm insisting that straightforward gameplay is so bad. If, the actual gameplay has to change what you tolerate in any way, the game isn't art. As for storylines, most game storylines aren't that great, but you will find some pretty incredible stories a few times a year, one good example would be the metal gear solid games even though I don't really like it's creator.

[QUOTE=Mr.Shadov]for me video games can be art. for example all 8 bit games that can be threated like that.
I remaber that one guy made "carpet invaders" based on "space invaders" but with elements of ships and aliens changed into symbols from carpet that looked like 8 bit video game.
For me art is "another worl" known also as "out of this world", or "Rez" that looks like old 8 bit games. In times when even a toilet paper puted in art gallery can be an art I belive video games can also be art. It only depends on contects in which you put it. :eek:[/QUOTE]
Why can't I get more posts like this? I agree with everything said and I would like to also say that everybody with a ps2 should immediately go and buy a copy of Rez, I think it might be pretty hard to find now though.

[QUOTE=nintenho]That's why I'm insisting that straightforward gameplay is so bad. If, the actual gameplay has to change what you tolerate in any way, the game isn't art. As for storylines, most game storylines aren't that great, but you will find some pretty incredible stories a few times a year, one good example would be the metal gear solid games even though I don't really like it's creator.[/QUOTE]

straighforward gameplay is usually shithouse, but i can only imagine the programmers of games creating art if they limit the ability of the gamer to corrupt their intended theme or story. thats why i think rigid storylines are the only way that games can transcend into the realms of art but its usually done in such a piss poor way as to bore the shit out of the gamer that he/she just turfs the game into the nearest bin.i cant see how you think games can be possible art but think that straighforward gameplay is really bad, when this is the only way i can imagine games evolving into art.

your quote "if, the actual gameplay has to change what you tolerate in any way, the game isnt art." im not quite following your meaning to this.

do you mean that if the gameplay changes sufficiently to alter the gamers "life values" then the game isnt art ? or is it meaning something else ?

as well i think a lot of games that would be close to art are those that rely apon video sequences verging on miniature movies not "traditional" games, hence "gamers boredom".

"moonstone" on the amiga 600 is the closest thing to art.
demons + weapons striking their heads = gorefest = art
and "river raid" on the 2600
why arent atari and amiga still alive ?????????????

yeah.

liek Ico and that other game I made a thread about a while back.

Shadow of the Colossus

[QUOTE=fattyowls]straighforward gameplay is usually shithouse, but i can only imagine the programmers of games creating art if they limit the ability of the gamer to corrupt their intended theme or story. thats why i think rigid storylines are the only way that games can transcend into the realms of art but its usually done in such a piss poor way as to bore the shit out of the gamer that he/she just turfs the game into the nearest bin.i cant see how you think games can be possible art but think that straighforward gameplay is really bad, when this is the only way i can imagine games evolving into art.

your quote "if, the actual gameplay has to change what you tolerate in any way, the game isnt art." im not quite following your meaning to this.

do you mean that if the gameplay changes sufficiently to alter the gamers "life values" then the game isnt art ? or is it meaning something else ?

as well i think a lot of games that would be close to art are those that rely apon video sequences verging on miniature movies not "traditional" games, hence "gamers boredom".

"moonstone" on the amiga 600 is the closest thing to art.
demons + weapons striking their heads = gorefest = art
and "river raid" on the 2600
why arent atari and amiga still alive ?????????????[/QUOTE]
The tolerance part of my previous post was about what your psyche can tolerate, so yes, I would say it's the same as "life values". I agree with most of the things that you said about the presentation that should be in videogames. The way I think about it is that a movie narrates stress while a videogame stresses narration.

Long time since last post.
Game makers are drug dealers.
Not so much artists.

My drug of choice happens to be MMORPGs. My hiatus is mostly due to World of Warcraft being released, I've spent almost all of my online time playing it. I've pretty much done all there is to do in the game now, so it is back to my old haunts. Hopefully, I will get as interested in this board as I was a year ago. At least it gives me room for more of a social life.

I think that videogames like MGS or Final Fantasy are just a perfect mix of other kinds of art like novels, music or painting. In XX century movies was such perfect mix of other kind of art and videogames are just next level of evolution an interacive story. There are a games whit briliant story like MGS, whit wonderfull music like Final Fantasy or Silent hill, and whit wonderfull design like Shadow of colossus that remaind me paintings. That are only examples but there is a lot more of such videogames.:eek:

More Kojima love (He talked about this subject so recently, that's why I shall continue the quotes):

"'The thing is, art is something that radiates the artist, the person who creates that piece of art. If 100 people walk by and a single person is captivated by whatever that piece radiates, it's art. But videogames aren't trying to capture one person. A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play that game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame. It's something of a service. It's not art."

[QUOTE=Mr.Shadov]I think that videogames like MGS or Final Fantasy are just a perfect mix of other kinds of art like novels, music or painting. In XX century movies was such perfect mix of other kind of art and videogames are just next level of evolution an interacive story. There are a games whit briliant story like MGS, whit wonderfull music like Final Fantasy or Silent hill, and whit wonderfull design like Shadow of colossus that remaind me paintings. That are only examples but there is a lot more of such videogames.:eek:[/QUOTE]
I'd say that there's at least five or so games a year that have enough...eh...finesse to bring together an atmospheric enough experience to be considered art. Also, those five or so games usually are much more artistically exciting than the average movie, song, etc.

[QUOTE=Michael]More Kojima love (He talked about this subject so recently, that's why I shall continue the quotes):

"'The thing is, art is something that radiates the artist, the person who creates that piece of art. If 100 people walk by and a single person is captivated by whatever that piece radiates, it's art. But videogames aren't trying to capture one person. A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play that game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame. It's something of a service. It's not art."[/QUOTE]
Trust me, there's a lot of games that fall under the "you either love it or hate it category". Also, I personally don't really like Kojima's games since he never really spends time perfecting the gameplay. Don't get me wrong, the production values in his games are very very high, but the games don't seem to ever really rely on the input factory to get across any sort of second sight......I just spent five minutes typing this trying to be as clear as possible so I'm just gonna leave it like that.

i think video games are art,the graphics and everything in them someone had to take the time to actually create all that shit,but some games are better done than others,like metroid prime,its awsome,and its like my favorite games ever, and i think the zelda wind waker game is art too the graphics are awsome in it,and final fantasy,i play that game everyday its awsome

[QUOTE=Chelsea Weston]i think video games are art,the graphics and everything in them someone had to take the time to actually create all that shit,but some games are better done than others,like metroid prime,its awsome,and its like my favorite games ever, and i think the zelda wind waker game is art too the graphics are awsome in it,and final fantasy,i play that game everyday its awsome[/QUOTE]
It always seems that there's only a few developers that really understand how to put a game together. Thankfully, those are the people who usually have the most freedom in what they put in their games.

i hate games were the graphics are all cuby and stuff,that usually happens with playstation but eternal darkeness for game cube is like that too

[QUOTE=Chelsea Weston]i hate games were the graphics are all cuby and stuff,that usually happens with playstation but eternal darkeness for game cube is like that too[/QUOTE]
cuby....you mean when the game isn't technically impressive. Actually,I heard that eternal darkness was made so that the graphics steadily become more and more impressive over the course of the game because they originally decided to put it on N64 but it was too late so when they had to remake the levels, they wouldn't have to do as much work.

Alright, I got this shit together now. Those of Kojima's from earlier, they were shit. "Lost In Translation" style shit. This is the shit:

"You see that museum over there? It's an art museum, but my example could be for any museum, that one just happens to be an art museum. Anyway, it's got pieces of art in there, but the museum itself isn't art. A videogame has pieces to it that are art. The music, the story, the graphics, the gameplay, but the videogame itself is not art."

Ok, so I fucked up his quote, but that was the meaning of it and it says exactly how I was feeling about the subject, since I can't think for myself.

The Silent Hill series of games from Konami are definitely art. I've read books that don't have the depth that these games have. So it's not surprising that when they made a movie out of the first instalment they didn't seem to deviate too much from the game itself.

Another game that's art is Killer 7. It's like a cracked out nightmare you'd have after doing 'shrooms, watching Takashi Miike and playing Super Marios Bros 3 one too many times. The storyline is so bizarre that it almost defies easy description. Basically you're an assassin that can change into 7 distinct bodies and personalities, and are guided by a ghost in BDSM gear. I won't even get into some of the subtler plot points like having to shoot someone's big red penis off to kill them or fighting the "Chairman of the Education Guidance Council" which is a girl in a manga costume with a machine gun, or that the game makes the allusion that everything that's occuring in the game is being controlled by an outside force (IE: you) in such a creepy way that you're almost buying it. If I started talking about the weird shit, we'd be here all night. Safe to say that it's the type of stuff you could write a whole essay about.

So, yeah. Videogames can be art.

[QUOTE=Michael]Alright, I got this shit together now. Those of Kojima's from earlier, they were shit. "Lost In Translation" style shit. This is the shit:

"You see that museum over there? It's an art museum, but my example could be for any museum, that one just happens to be an art museum. Anyway, it's got pieces of art in there, but the museum itself isn't art. A videogame has pieces to it that are art. The music, the story, the graphics, the gameplay, but the videogame itself is not art."

Ok, so I fucked up his quote, but that was the meaning of it and it says exactly how I was feeling about the subject, since I can't think for myself.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with that. Play a game like Metroid Prime and it'll actually change your attitude. It's one of those very few games around that actually awknowledges that you can't control the discontent. But hey, I love emo music and hate Tool so what's my opinion worth?

[QUOTE=boycott]I don't agree with that. Play a game like Metroid Prime and it'll actually change your attitude. It's one of those very few games around that actually awknowledges that you can't control the discontent. But hey, I love emo music and hate Tool so what's my opinion worth?[/QUOTE]
Whatever a Canadian penny will get you in China.

[QUOTE=Smartazboy]Whatever a Canadian penny will get you in China.[/QUOTE]
What the hell does that mean?