R There any Christians who love this story?

i found a video copy of FC for a small group (mens group) that i was a part of.. back when they were talking about the biblical men and how men today arent men in a traditionally masculine sense.. so being one of the younger members. and one with a much less traditional view of my faith.. i suggest they watch fight club to the leader (a really good friend of mine) and he watched it with me (sorta) and he wasnt into it because of all the language and the sex, and probably the violence and anarchal overtones.. which upset me because the story and the notion of the story were SO closely paralleled to the group.. (well minus the destruction of the city thing)

ARGH! So frustrating!

It's hard for Churched men to make that leap. Women too, but in this context, it's hard for them to justify identifying with such an impulsive character and maintaining a "christian" attitude towards women and life and all. Tyler is so instinctive that I think they can't accept his leadership without feeling like they're imediately going to go out and fuck women who aren't their wives, get drunk, kill someone, and break things all in one night! They are just too repressed!

I posted something in the Submissions forum called "Show me your Monster". It's from another Forum I post on that's mainly Christian in nature. It opened up the sinuses of a few of them out there and made alot of people think. It's about this kind of issue. That's why I posted these two things in the same day. It's been on my mind to integrate all this. I've connected with Christian people who get the Tyler thing, now I need to connect with people who get the Tyler thing who are Christians. Read it and tell me what you think.

Thanks for checking in.

I'm a Christian! I'm like....the postergirl for Christianity around here. Um...yeah. I don't have a lot else to add at this juncture.

[IMG]http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-YesIFoundRe.gif[/IMG]

No hostility intended.

I'm not Christian, I'm not atheist, I'm not religious, I'm not anti-religion. Not militantly anyway.

But I am a fan of anyone who can look at the world with their own eyes and step back and say "This is what I think, even if others in my group don't." For that, I commend you.

And Atomos' story is what I would expect in that situation. Sadly enough.

[QUOTE=Whitewave]Yes, I'm a Christian. Not entirely orthodox, definitely not fundie. More of a recovering evangelical, postmodern, emerging Church person. Blah, blah, blah. Words. So laborious!

There is plenty here to love for us. I talk to Christian people nearly every day on the web who love it. One doesn't have to give up Faith to appreciate the Truth here.

I want to know if I'm all alone out here, or if there are others. I don't need to collect alot of crap about being a person of faith. Unless you want to talk TO me about it and not past me. Then, that would be fine. And I don't mean to exclude people from other faiths who like it, but other faiths seem to have already been incorported. It's usually the Christian faith that gets bashed or left out. If you're a Buddhist or a Jewish person, start a string. I'll read those too.

If stuff like this can't be integrated into Real Life, then we've learned nothing from the story.

Check in, folks.[/QUOTE]

eh?

[QUOTE=owenwarland]eh?[/QUOTE]
Are you Canadian too?

[QUOTE=For Serious]Are you Canadian too?[/QUOTE]

No, I'm an English teacher.

[QUOTE=owenwarland]No, I'm an English teacher.[/QUOTE]
For serious?

Oh, dear. An english teacher can't understand what I'm saying. This is not a good sign.

Give me something to work with here, hon. What don't you understand?

Thanks for speaking up. This is good. I hope you can add something at another juncture. We have peculiar needs, y'know. It's good to support each other.

[QUOTE=Whitewave]Oh, dear. An english teacher can't understand what I'm saying. This is not a good sign.

Give me something to work with here, hon. What don't you understand?[/QUOTE]

What is the point of your original post? Do you think Christians should or shouldn't like FC? Why are people walking past you? I don't get it. At all.

Thanks. Groupthink is so dangerous. And it's hard to escape without becoming just plain contrary. Because once you separate from a group and then find someone else who agrees with you, you become yet another group to step away from. Thank you, Spacemonkeys. But it's important to stand on a place that's worthy to be stood upon whether there's a group with you or not.

God, bless you for speaking up.

And yeah, I agree that Atomos' predicament is common, but I assign a special meaning to the word "expect". It carries with it almost a Trust or Faith meaning for me. Or a resignation. There is no way I'd want to expect crap like that in something so important to me as The Church. I'd rather stick my finger down my throat and vomit. I will never resign to that. Never. While there's alot of talk in the Church about loving the Church, not trying to change the church, I find that largely motivated by fear and only a small portion by legitimate concern about Church bashing. I have no desire to shoot the wounded, but I firmly believe they should be healed and strengthened so they can stand up against the weakening influences of crap like passivity and emotional impotence.

Heh-heh. Ya got me goin' there...

Oh, I think you read that before I corrected the typo. I got it quick too, but I guess you were quicker. Talk. Not walk. Read it again.

Anyhow, I'm just wanting to see if there are any other Christians out here in Chuck's Forum land who like FC.

I'm definitely not about telling people what they should and shouldn't like (morey!). Should's are for Rule Keepers. I'm not a Rule Keeper. Jesus wasn't a Rule Keeper. I've heard about the T-shirt that the banner at the bottom of this page is advertizing. I think that's funny, and I think Jesus would laugh. But I think He would have a few more words to say afterward as well.

Thank you for asking so I can understand well enough to answer. That's helpful. Did I answer well enough?

[QUOTE=Whitewave]ARGH! So frustrating!

It's hard for Churched men to make that leap. Women too, but in this context, it's hard for them to justify identifying with such an impulsive character and maintaining a "christian" attitude towards women and life and all. Tyler is so instinctive that I think they can't accept his leadership without feeling like they're imediately going to go out and fuck women who aren't their wives, get drunk, kill someone, and break things all in one night! They are just too repressed!

I posted something in the Submissions forum called "Show me your Monster". It's from another Forum I post on that's mainly Christian in nature. It opened up the sinuses of a few of them out there and made alot of people think. It's about this kind of issue. That's why I posted these two things in the same day. It's been on my mind to integrate all this. I've connected with Christian people who get the Tyler thing, now I need to connect with people who get the Tyler thing who are Christians. Read it and tell me what you think.

Thanks for checking in.[/QUOTE]
this could be why most people laugh when i say im a christian. a long haired guy in a seether tshirt who sings metal and swears a lot? christian? no!!i was raised in a church. but not in a christian home (does this make sense) and being disabled and poor i found that by the age of nine or ten that i didnt fit in there. and i stopped going.. and i proceeded to become "worldly" as some christians would say...

keep in mind i was brought up (on the weekends anyways) as a christian. which coupled with my colorful home life kept me out of a lot of trouble. and i think its made me a very rounded person..

so anyways by the time im in highschool about sixteen... im introduced to this oastor guy (mentioned earlier) because my friends dad died and he wants me to go with him to see this guy.. and i start attending church again. as the take me as i come, and fuck you if u cant stand me kinda guy i am. and thats still me, to this day.

i dont think im any less a christian than my friend the pastor.. sure i might not be as mature in my faith.. but thats not the point.

people who are "worldly" arent taken to very well by the christian faith. some people in my church still avoid me. some parents wont leave their kids with me alone. to me its weird that christians seem to want to be more free, and more themselves and less pussy-fied. but they are afraid of me.. and as far as i can tell im mostly what they wanted out of the group. i take risks, i do dumb things. and i am not tied to the world very well, so to speak.

im a pretty nice guy, id say and im accepting of people who accept me.. but im not the cleaned up suit and tie kinda christian.. boo freaking hoo

jesus christ of the bible didnt preach to the church he HATED the church. who does it say he spent time with? lepars, whores, sick, dying, demon posessed people.

^^^if you ask me thats whats wrong with most "christians" is they believe in jesus, but dont believe as jesus taught it

I like you. This is great. I'm glad you didn't cave in, and I'm glad that you retained your own identity and self.

You mentioned the label "worldly". This may be a word they put on you, but you hardly need to let it stick. You are right about Jesus spending time with the folks in the world. That word has come to mean wearing the same clothes as..., eating the same food as..., listening to the same music as... the world. But couldn't it logically also mean having sex in the same positions as..., wiping your ass with toilet paper just like..., giving birth the same way as..., growing hair out of the top of your head just like..., wearing clothes at all just like... the world? Its so stupid the way some point to a behavior of their choice and, by default, it becomes evil because "The World" does it. If you wanna get technical. Jesus probably didn't use toilet paper. WWJWHBW? Must we do the same? Or would we be "following the World" by using it?

I love "boo freaking hoo". Dang, that's funny.

"worldly" the way i believe its meant is in the sense of people who get sucked into the darker, less socially acceptable to christians. kinda activity. which is pretty much me. i enjoy drinking and concerts, and having sex whenever possibe (that one makes most christians cringe)

and i tend to disagree on a lot of things in conservative christianity. especially the any "profanity" is a sin deal. i got into an argument with a guy in my church cuz i told someone to fuck off and an older member on the way past yelled at me for it.. and i said hey man i didnt say god damn it (the only profanity mentioned in the bible as sinful) and nowhere in my bible does it say "thou shalt not say fuck"

*cringe cringe*

You said that IN CHURCH?!!! Geeeze! That's asking for it. But, oh well! It's not likely that you'll find a normal church that will allow that kind of thing anyway. I've read of some that exist who do. But I think they mainly exist in books and websites. I've never found one.

I'm pretty sure that the label "worldly" doesn't quite capture what you're seemingly flaunting before them. I think the old standard "sinful" would be more accurate. But those are just labels.

I'm not using them for you.

As far as I can tell, cursing is about telling someone they are a horrible person or degrading their value in a way that excludes them from one's own loftyness. Not even Tyler did that. He included himself in on the entire compost heap thing. It was meant to be the great equalizer. Churched people curse people all the time. Even from the pulpit. It's unbelievable.

The "godammit" thing, I think is another assumption on someone's part that "taking the Lord's name in vain" = cursing something or someone by saying "God damns you". I think this is too large of an assumption. The idea of God "damning" is an idea that is up for discussion, so we would have to speak it. I'm more inclined to think that "taking the Lord's name in vain" would mean using His Name to legitimatize a human endeavor or intent or statement which God would never literally "endorse". That would be vanity. And using His Name. I don't know. Lots to think about.

Keep writing. You make me think. I enjoy it.

im painfully honest though, thats me. if i dont agree with something i tend to speak my mind. and since my "behavior" has both come to symbolize part of what my pastor friend wants people to embrace, and something that scares people away at the same time. my role as the outreach DJ was probably where my tempermentsl morals took me to the top of a few hitlists.consiidering id spin anything i personally felt was "clean enough for out reach" but i frowned on most rap. and i dont think you'll argue with me on this, rap, especially popular rap has zero place even in outreach.

my field jacket with my bad religion punk patch is a hit with a lot of the (in my eyes) "real" christians. and it gets an assortment of responses from everyone else.

the staff at the church has also at least once, apon seeing me in the lobby, getting ready for retreats and stuff have walked up to me and asked if i "needed help" of i needed them to "call someone"

do i suppose i ask you this. as a growing christian, where do *I* end and where does everything else take over? and having found a niche as an outreach worker and member of an "alternative" church (however still christian)im offended that being myself is so widely frowned upon (unless that is im on stage or something) why do hypocritical people think i should take them serious when they dint take me serious?

and how much of this should i take to heart as being christian and how much of it should i shrug off?

Christians make no sense. And I am one.

eh?

they make a hell of a lot more sense than mormons. trust me i dated one or 2 and a remarkably unintelligent slutty catholic too

Ah, the english teacher. Is eh? in the dictionary?

I think the biggest reason they are hard to understand is because the ideal is so intense and the gap is so wide. They tend to contain some of the biggest contradictions in the world. Otherwise, if they were only shooting at being crap, like so many people do, then they wouldn't be so far off.

But that's "Christians", not Jesus. Eh?

[QUOTE=Whitewave]Ah, the english teacher. Is eh? in the dictionary?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary]
Main Entry: eh
Pronunciation: 'A, 'e, 'a(i), also with h preceding and/or with nasalization
Function: interjection
Etymology: Middle English ey
-- used to ask for confirmation or repetition or to express inquiry; used especially in Canadian English in anticipation of the listener's or reader's agreement[/QUOTE]

interesting stuff being said in here...
as far as the original topic, which never got addressed properly, i think Christians have their own books now-a-days that they can read instead of watching/reading Fight Club. i'm about to read a book called Wild At Heart by Some Christian Dude who lives right here in the Springs, a Focus On The Family guy, the kind of shite i would normally never touch but it got good recommendations from friends... it talks about being manly again in a world where Christian men are emasculated in the name of being good humble Christians. it talks, among other things, about how when a church is formed the men hand off the task of decorating the church to the women, so it becomes this place of matching colors and colorful drapes, etc, and so what that leads to (generally speaking, of course) is generations of Christian American men spending all their church time in feminine surroundings. It also talks about getting in touch with your inner man and dormant instincts, through methods like going hiking high in the woods by yourself to appreciate nature and use your muscles and your mind to make it in the wilds for a day or two, that sort of thing.
i'm certain that some church-goers out there, the more "open-minded" ones, could appreciate the underlying themes of Fight Club. i told my Dad (the ex-pastor, present day Christian psychoanalyst) what Fight Club was all about, with the fighting serving as therapy, and he thought it was a really awesome idea, albeit one presented via subject matter not suitable for Christians to read.
i have some friends who are big Chuck fans who are Christians, but then again they aren't exactly hardcore Christians, or even super-loyal ones. They go to church and frown upon my abandonment of religion, then suddenly remember they wanted to tell me about this hot chick they felt up at a party or the great porn they saw or whatever. This is an extreme example of their behavior, it's not that drastically two-sided, but you get the idea...
Honestly, thinking back on the kind of kids i went to Bible Study and Sunday School and mission trips with back in the day, i doubt any of them would make it past the first ten minutes of Fight Club without deciding that it was an evil sinful movie, thus nullifying any possibility of them seeing any good truth's in it for the remainder of the flick.

I want to know what the Jews think about all this.

[QUOTE=izen]interesting stuff being said in here...
as far as the original topic, which never got addressed properly, i think Christians have their own books now-a-days that they can read instead of watching/reading Fight Club. i'm about to read a book called Wild At Heart by Some Christian Dude who lives right here in the Springs, a Focus On The Family guy, the kind of shite i would normally never touch but it got good recommendations from friends... it talks about being manly again in a world where Christian men are emasculated in the name of being good humble Christians. it talks, among other things, about how when a church is formed the men hand off the task of decorating the church to the women, so it becomes this place of matching colors and colorful drapes, etc, and so what that leads to (generally speaking, of course) is generations of Christian American men spending all their church time in feminine surroundings. It also talks about getting in touch with your inner man and dormant instincts, through methods like going hiking high in the woods by yourself to appreciate nature and use your muscles and your mind to make it in the wilds for a day or two, that sort of thing.
i'm certain that some church-goers out there, the more "open-minded" ones, could appreciate the underlying themes of Fight Club. i told my Dad (the ex-pastor, present day Christian psychoanalyst) what Fight Club was all about, with the fighting serving as therapy, and he thought it was a really awesome idea, albeit one presented via subject matter not suitable for Christians to read.
i have some friends who are big Chuck fans who are Christians, but then again they aren't exactly hardcore Christians, or even super-loyal ones. They go to church and frown upon my abandonment of religion, then suddenly remember they wanted to tell me about this hot chick they felt up at a party or the great porn they saw or whatever. This is an extreme example of their behavior, it's not that drastically two-sided, but you get the idea...
Honestly, thinking back on the kind of kids i went to Bible Study and Sunday School and mission trips with back in the day, i doubt any of them would make it past the first ten minutes of Fight Club without deciding that it was an evil sinful movie, thus nullifying any possibility of them seeing any good truth's in it for the remainder of the flick.[/QUOTE]
wild at heart.. thats the book we were studying when i thought "shit this sounds a lot like fight club" but no one else saw it that way.

its weird to me how my ability to see christian concepts in "sinful" things and others ability not to are even issues in church.

Right on!

Me too.

In my NIV Study Bible, the note for Genesis 32:25 says very succinctly:

"God came to him in such a form that Jacob could wrestle with him successfully, yet he showed Jacob that he could disable him at will."

Doesn't that amount to the general message here?

I wonder what the Jewish tradition is for that verse.

I've heard alot of good things about that book and Eldredge in general. But the whole Focus on the Fam-damily thing has me so wound up and angry that I can't bring myself to investigate further. I'm just glad that someone over there feels generous enough to keep modeling the right way to do it for them. I'm worn out.

The instincts you mentioned in your first paragraph are good and powerful and, I believe, their repression and supression have resulted in the quality gap you pointed to in your last two paragraphs. The hyper-feminization (no longer truly feminine, but, ironically, only a fading shadow of a male idealization of it...) of love in the Church has led to a progressivly dehumanizing sub-culture that has no relation to reality or the rest of the world. It is so chronically, culturally impotent, that I'm surprised Jesus hasn't already come back to put us out of His misery. We're pathetic.

But aparently there is still a witness to the truth in the world. We're it. So we've got to do the job. Thank you for doing your part.

[QUOTE=Whitewave]I've heard alot of good things about that book and Eldredge in general. But the whole Focus on the Fam-damily thing has me so wound up and angry that I can't bring myself to investigate further. I'm just glad that someone over there feels generous enough to keep modeling the right way to do it for them. I'm worn out.

The instincts you mentioned in your first paragraph are good and powerful and, I believe, their repression and supression have resulted in the quality gap you pointed to in your last two paragraphs. The hyper-feminization (no longer truly feminine, but, ironically, only a fading shadow of a male idealization of it...) of love in the Church has led to a progressivly dehumanizing sub-culture that has no relation to reality or the rest of the world. It is so chronically, culturally impotent, that I'm surprised Jesus hasn't already come back to put us out of His misery. We're pathetic.

But aparently there is still a witness to the truth in the world. We're it. So we've got to do the job. Thank you for doing your part.[/QUOTE]
Useful tip # 48: Use the quote feature, it makes it easier to understand who you're repsonding to and will organize the thread in hybrid mode much better.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]Useful tip # 48:[/QUOTE]

Sorry. Good point. I find the quote thing so annoying because it's a bandwidth and space hog and my dial up loads slowly enough and I don't want to make the problem worse and I hate doing all the extra scrolling for long quotes.

Gracious compromise #12:

Quote only the first line so that we can identify the post we're responding to, but not drag the entire thing through the system again and again... K?

[QUOTE=Whitewave]Sorry. Good point. I find the quote thing so annoying because it's a bandwidth and space hog and my dial up loads slowly enough and I don't want to make the problem worse and I hate doing all the extra scrolling for long quotes.

Gracious compromise #12:

Quote only the first line so that we can identify the post we're responding to, but not drag the entire thing through the system again and again... K?[/QUOTE]
actually, if you hit quick reply and then check the box for "quote message in reply?", it won't take quite so long to load. I just figured this out myself.

Or you can actually type in the

Oh... and this is an interesting thread.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]Oh... and this is an interesting thread.[/QUOTE]
interesting yes
i had a lot of fun with this one, even though the "christian" dude that started it called me "sinful" i think he missed my point tho

I'm a Christian dude, and if there's one thing it has taught me "..all have sinned."

i understand all that.
mankind has a sinful nature.
as such, even as a christian, as i am, i dont think there are a lot of people in today's church who understand that. there's sure a lot of suit and tie type christians, if u get my meaning. a lot of "i go to church so that makes me one up on you, kinda people. which is really the only thing that keeps me from being "openly christian" if u follow me

I follow.. even though I wear a suit and tie... no one else at my church does though.. not even the pastor. I just like to look good. I wear a suit and tie other places too. I think we're coming from the same point of view here.

I picked up a book a little while ago called, [I]"How Movies Helped Save My Soul"[/I] by Gareth Higgins and it has Fight Club in it. I pulled some parts of his Fight Club review out here for y'all to check out, I don't feel too bad about giving you too much of his review because the whole book is really worth a read, so this might be a good hook to get you guys to read the rest.

[INDENT]
"My view is that this film is a wake-up call from our generation to the Church, and if we don't pay attention, we will remain as dead is its unnamed narrator is at the start.

"But the fight club awakens them to something more alive than ever, with its pain as premature enlightenment. Guys thrash each other and themselves into seeing things as they really are. Ironically, the first guy they pick a fight with when the club is taken onto the streets is a clergyman, who is initially too timid to respond, but eventually joins in with gusto. That metaphor for the church's inability or unwillingness to take a stand does not go unnoticed. By me at least."

"Its central theme--summed up by Tyler's simple adage, "You are not your fucking khakis"--is a powerful riposte to the branding of the Church in bite-sized chunks that has emerged as a response to the fiilure of large-scale evangelical initiatives."

"Movies like this are a mirror that we need to hold up once in a while; so go on, come out of your closet you need to go beyond your numbness. Watch this movie and take the reality check that might just shock you into becoming more human." [/indent]

Pardon if there are any spelling or grammatical errors, I copied that in a hurry. The book itself is a very cool read as its not really as hardcore religious as it might seem, I tried to pick out good quotes, juicy ones so don't be frightened off. He also has some very interesting selections, ones that don't exactly scream Christian such as Monsters Ball, Eyes Wide Shut, Vanilla Sky and such. Its a very interesting read especially the reviews of the films themselves, its worth to check it out.

I was too lazy to read the entire thread, but hopefully what i say will interest u anyway.
The first existentialist philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard, was a hard-core devout christian. He is also someone Chuck has been known to quote and cite as an inspiration in interviews from time to time. So i guess that means that the basic fight club philosophy (i.e. understand who u are to be a real person and act like you are alive at the same time) can in some way fit the christian ethos, though in a somewhat different way then the non-christian. Thats all i got for now, but i may add something later after i finish reading the whole thread. (if someone already brought this up, im sorry)

George Bush loves you. sucker.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]George Bush loves you. sucker.[/QUOTE]
hehehhehehehe
word...

?

it's nice to see religion being discussed in such a away that it hasn't dissolved into immature namecalling and shit talking. and ,for the record, it's chutzpah. :}

[QUOTE=walkingcontradiction]hehehhehehehe
word...

?[/QUOTE]

Where did she dissappear to?