THE TRUTH ABOUT SURVIVOR [spoilers]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by well [/i]
[B]After reading the things I've written, I can see how you got "insecure", "talentless", and "fucking retard"... but where does "piece of shit" come from? [/B][/QUOTE]

Apparently right next to witty.

people, people, people. aren't we all on the same side here? we all love chuck's books, isn't that enough. this should be a place where people can write their theories without having to worry that someone is going to ridicule them with petty name calling. personally, i never even considered that adam didn't exist, call me stupid or naive or whatever you want. i'm just looking forward to rereading one of my favorite books with a new twist in mind.

One word, people, and that word is "Chill". I'd follow it by "the fuck out", but that'd be four words. ;/

Check the link out on the previous page and READ it, its worth it. This adds a whole new dimension to the book and to CP's brilliance.

Thanks Well

think about that his brother said. That he wants him to be able to be free and live a fullfiling life free from the church. Fertility told adam how it would all end and adam was happy with it. If he were told Tender would die he would not have been happy. All the theories about the endings are good though.

i think he dies, and fertility knows it...and like the guy above said, she tells him that stuff to make him feel better

k there seems to be alot of arguing here eh. since im too lost on where to understand the big argument with whats happenning someone tell me where im wrong.

my view on the book

tender's brother was real, and at the end tender survived due to the whole tape cassette black box theory thinger majinger.

so thats what i think, its not my opinion just what i think happenned. so tell me were i went wrong, like there seems to be many sides to this thing and i wanna know how what i think the book was about/ended is wrong or right

The way I see it:

Tender survived, and used that cassette trick. I didn't think of it when I read the book, but here's what I found pretty weird: Tender's last words were something like: "Mic check, one two.." It was supposed to be when the 747 hit the ground, however I cannot imagine someone saying that while hitting the ground at incredible speed. :confused: Also, there was something about Tender questioning the pilot about where exactly the plane was going to crash.. It all makes sense now.

As for Adam being Tender theory, i think it creates more questions than answers, for example why did he need the goddamn alibi if he was going to fake his death anyway?

"Tender survived, and used that cassette trick. "

I agree but mainly because I want to believe tender made it. it's just too sad to think he'd die never having good sex.

Tender's last words were something like: "Mic check, one two.."

yeah that is weird, huh?

"Also, there was something about Tender questioning the pilot about where exactly the plane was going to crash.. It all makes sense now."

huh? how does that prove or disprove anything? maybe tender just wanted to make sure he wouldn't crash into anywhere with people. since he's "not a murderer" after all.

"why did Adam need the goddamn alibi if he was going to fake his death anyway?"

now that's a good question, but it could be so that no one figures out that he may have faked his own death so the feds don't come looking for him since he's innocent anyway. Or, maybe Tender is in total denial and created Adam as a way to assuage his guilt. I dunno, personally I think Adam was too essential to the plot to have been made up (i.e. adam is the reason tender started freaking out and didn't answer his phone, adam taught tender and fertility how to sneak in the mobile home, adam made tender remember that he was forced to watch childbirth, etc.)

I dont' think Adam was made up. I htink Chuck would have given more clues. But a book is also how you look at it. If a book can allow you to apply new rules to it then its done its job. Why did Tender repeat testing, testing, one, two, three? He wouldn't have been able to hear it. It wouldn't have mattered. That bothered me. Maybe it was the type recorder after all. I also think htat the kid was Tender's. Fertility said that Tender was her only hope for a surprise and thats what he gave her. Or at least thats what i think.

Well, your theory seems to remind me of Memento. A weird coincidence is that when I looked for some Memento reviews, whose did I find? Chuck's at [url]www.metaphilm.com[/url]

Adam is in a gay relationship with Tender,Fertility finds out and kills Adam. Tender uses the excuse of saving Ferility as a suicide attempt(depends on which ending you prefer). Tender learns about what Fertility did to Adam and is overcome with a passion for her and sets the recorder down then jumps to her arms....Blah blah blah.

Oh yeah,then they were captured by island natives andskinned alive then eaten.

pg 289: testing, testing. One, two, three.
pg 1: testing, testing, one, two -

i think the last lines of the book are actually tender playing his tape recorded version of his story to the black box. it cuts off before you hear the word "three" or any of the rest of the story because that is what he point he jumps out of the plane. he wouldn't be there to hear the rest of his story again and therefore it would not be in the book. the book would end where he exits the plane.

Tender/Adam Issue.

The Bus Scene.

Tender and Fertility our on a bus Adam is telling jokes. And Fertility says later on the phone that she knew they were brothers.

Now I know what your thinking Tender just lied into the black box, but then Tender could have lied about every single thing in the book. That's the problem with stories told from the character's perspective. You have to trust the character, so do you trust Tender? Or do you think Tender is a pathological liar and killed everyone except Fertility? He could of killed her to if you think he lied about everything else, All the passengers could still be on the plane and he could of shot the Pilots in the head. The possiblities are endless if you don't trust the character telling the story.

im such a fuckwit. i just assumed he died and was getting upset about it, i dont read into these things enough....

or maybe you shouldnt read into these things so much: Adam not being real? ok so fair enough, Tender could have lied about ANYTHING in the book, so then you could just presume that the whole fucking book was one big lie. what would be the point? chuck feels the book is about the education system/cog in the machine so what use would a made up older brother be?

ok, so made up people couldbe a running theme in his books,but i dont see what use it is in survivor. it would be pointless, throughout the entire book Tender is just following someone's orders, he doesnt have a clue whats going on half the time.

Adam was real. Tender was not a murderer. It just seems pointless to me that Tender would tell you a lie for a whole book.

i agree man but i am reading it over again

i want to know what you mean more by what you said about the book is about the education system/cog in the machine

its my favorite book by him
and im lovin every post about it by everyone here

Ok

this book absolutely is incredible. Especially when you read it over three times. The second time i read it over I had kind of forgotten some stuff, so the book was still as surprising and amazing as i thought it was before.
I feel that i cannot accept that Adam is made up. I can see how it makes sense for those who believe thats what happened, and tender is a murderer bla bla bla. But. I do not think tender is the survivor serial killer, and he made that shit up as an alibi. No.
I do however, agree that he survives at the end, because he says
a lot of how he can cover the truth up throughout the entire book, and yes, i folded every page that i thougth to be relevant to these truths, lies, comments. At the very last page, he says, "and if i could figure out what fertility meant, i could save myselve, but i cant. im stupid"
i think this is a lie. Then he says, "heres the life and death of tender branson, and i can just walk away from it"
as for the repeating of the "testing, testing, one, two - " cutoff thing im not sure
i think he might have said testin testing one two three, and it got cut off because thats when the plane crashed, but he was already out and

oh yea and as for him tape recording the story before and then letting it play to the box, i can see that happening, but i only have slight subtle proof of that. the thing on page 8, saying minicasette recorders OK
and one other thing he says something like i have to get this done before the recorder tape runs out.... i dont know

either way
i love this book no matter which "ending" or plot or whatever you go by
amazing

So, I just finished the book and read the "real" ending on the website and I just don't know how we were supposed to see that he would use the taperecorder like that. I did catch that they traded the passengers for gin and 6 parachutes but about the taperecorder...
What if he leaves the plane in midsentence and just jumps out to make it sound like he died? The blackbox would say the time on it when they found it but we, the readers, wouldn't know. It just seems more plausible.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by murderkitchen [/i]
[B]"The end of Survivor isn't nearly so complicated. It's noted on page 7 (8?) that a pile of valuable offerings has been left in the front of the passenger cabin. This pile includes a cassette recorder. Even before our hero starts to dictate his story -- during the few minutes he's supposed to be taking a piss -- he's actually in the bathroom dictating the last chapter into the cassette recorder. It's just ranting, nothing important plot-wise,
and it can be interrupted at any point by the destruction of the plane. The minute the fourth engine flames out, he starts the cassette talking, then bails out, into Fertility's waiting arms (she's omniscient, you know). The rest of the book is just one machine whining and bitching to another machine. The crash will destroy the smaller recorder, but the surviving black box will make it appear that Tender is dead."

Supposedly, Chuck P. wrote that. It is a good explanation but I think Chuck did that so people can pick whatever ending they want: whether he dies or lives. [/B][/QUOTE]

When I Finished this book this is exactly what i thought...
It's all about reader's point of view, so answer on the question how the book ending search in your understanding of itself, not in the Chuk's mind....

DrGonzo is bang on about the adam/tender thing i think.

i dont see what the great tragedy in tender dying is, with all the drugs and things his agent and all the rest had him on his body was pretty much fucked up anyway, so it'd be a heck of a job to get him back to a drug-free lifestyle. plus with being media messiah and the most famous man in the world, with everyone watching the superbowl wanting him dead and with being a suspect of multiple murders, with his face being so well known, how far would he get, that'd be whether or not they fall for him dying in the crash, he'd get recognised eventually. unless of course fertility keeps him away from danger.

also i take it he bails by parachuting out of there, doesnt it mention that there are only a limited number of parachutes, perhaps thats the lie.

i like the whole resolution that death brings. when i read that he was supposed to live, i thought chuckie was going to explain it away with some wishy washy 'oh he lives through fertility being pregnant with his child', so its good it wasnt that at least.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by well [/i]
[B]It said there were acres and acres and ACRES of land. There were no landmarks. There would be no way to find the body.[/B][/QUOTE]

Didn't Tender supposedly bury Adam right near the giant concrete pylon where the council meetinghouse used to stand? That sounds like a landmark.

I'm not disputing the rest of your claim, just pointing out that there was a specific location mentioned.

/joe

Here's my interpretation of the ending: Chuck said the book is about how the educational system teaches you to simply be a cog in the machine - essentially to follow orders and just be a good employee, nothing more. Tender's final statement that he is "stupid" and cant figure out what Fertility meant shows that without someone barking orders at him, he is nothing. He can't even get himself to try and save his own life. This is the tragedy of Tender Branson, and Fertility "predicting" his safe escape just accentuates it. Point being, even if Tender does manage to escape, it won't be out of his own free will as he is incapable of choice, ravaged and brainwashed, which I think is even sadder than going down in flames.

Just my interpretation

thats a nice way of looking at it, well more cynical than nice. i can see what you mean about the "wishy washy" ending.

a point i just thought up: since when do parachutes get put on passenger jets...?

im not going to doubt Tender, it just makes the book too confusing if you start doubting him.

also, the cog in the machine point: Tender does have to figure his escape out himself..... he wasnt ordered to, just given advanced warning.

maybe im being too optimistic....?

I finally get this book, I've only read two books by chuck, Survivor and Diary, soon I shall read fight club... but survivor is my favorite so far.

I just finished reading it again. they're was an exchange of several parachautes for passengers at the drop of, and obviously the pilot used one. So they're was a aprachuate for him to use. but he claims he was too stupid to understand how he could escape. but fertilitey did say he would find away. but fertilitey did trick him into hi-jacking the plane in the first place.

[b]what i think[/b]

He was a surviver in the sense that his story survived, he was a matyre type surviver in that he survived everything he was tarred with through out his life. he survived the white slavery handed to him by the cult he was brought up in. He relised everything he was trained to be and broke free of his trapped mind, which is what adam wanted him to do. I think [i]he did die[/i]. And i believe after all that had happend to him...it was the first time he truley wanted to die. As apposed to just killing himself because he had been trained too.

but it is possible he did use a tape recorder to escape. the point is he told his story and to the rest of the world. Me and you and everyone else. He is dead.

How exactly was he talking normally during a descent falling at terminal velocity then?

The first time I read the book, I didn't even think there was a chance that Tender survived. The second time I read through the book though, I realized that it's possible for him to survive.

I don't like to think he survived. It seems so much more fulfilling for me to see how this guy could never quite get a grasp on something right before his death, never quite understand everything around him, and not bail his ass out. Or maybe I just don't like endings where the main character miraculously (sp?) survives

It's probably stupid me posting here, cus i think no one posts here anymore, but still. I don't know about that ending that chuck gives. It seems silly or cop-outish. I mean how on earth would the reader figure that out, they would have to assume a whole lot. I'd rather just not known about it. I'm sure someone has said this before, but I didnt want to read all 6 pages of posts. I prefer thinking that he dies, it just seems too off the wall. And the whole deal of Tender and Adam being the same person seems like reading too much into things or over-analyzing. When I heard that Tender was supposed to have survived, I just assumed that he kept an extra parachute and bailed out as the 4th engine blew out or something.

chuck always makes the point in telling us if the characters are the same person.

The reason he never told you he died is becaus eyour listening to a tape recorder.

The plane wouldnt crash then hed get up out of the flames and say "To avoid confusion i am actually dead"

and the line that confirms it for me

"if your listening to this then i am already dead"

"how come you want to die so much" "listen to the recording and you will know"

the plane crash was tenders topical anesthetic. wondering if hes dead is like tender liustening to caskets to see if there still active life.

I finished my first read about ten minutes ago and havnt got my head round it yet let alone the many theories written here. However a one point id like to make is...

The issue over whether Adam is real or not. Well if he isnt, it seems viable to assume that there is a body buried in the porn dump next to the monument. If we are to believe the 'Alibi' theory then- Firstly there are no records of 'adam's' identity so identifying the corpse forensically would be impossible. Secondly, 'his' face has been smashed in so it would be impossible to tell his likeness to Tender (as his twin). My theory is it's the cab driver in the grave. As Fertility says 'he'll be dead 2 days from now in an accident'. This statement would be hard to verify and besides fertility could predict the death of a totally separate cab driver. In any case, reconstructing dental records from a caved in face and fingerprints from a chard corpse is also near impossible.

This might seem like nonsense.

Also not many of these theories seem to implicate Fertility more deeply into the story.

if he's not dead i'm going to be very upset.

i think he jumped! his alibi (us) is complete.

If Adam was all just a figure of Tender's imagination, then that would mean that he would have had to be an Adam. If that were true, then he was the one who tipped off the police about the kids that were unacounted for legally. Maybe, to hide the fact that he stayed in the cult and tipped off the police, he told everyone that his name was Tender Branson, that way they would think that he had nothing to do with any of it, and would be left alone.

I personally think that the whole thing about the tape recorder is brilliant. And I also think that the idea behind the letters missing out of the words was intentional.

Hail to Chuck for writing such a thought provoking book.

i never thought he died, but I also didnt think he jumped. I initially thought the plane did crash, but somewhere he may have servived...she said he would...damn i dunno

I really still don't know about the ending bit. However i am very sure he did kill. He keeps repeting how he knows to erase blood, how when you finish you forget the act. I mean he did run a suicide-line that told people to kill themselves there is more to him than the narrative he laid out. There are very interesting things in this story. Things he said about the people who called that he later said of himself, about not wanting to be fixed.

I think this is the best book i have read so far from chuck (others being Fight Club and Choke)

after readin this book i thought that tender finally died...but now,after readin this thread,i dunno what to think.....as English isn't my native tongue i could have missed some details while readin "Survivor"...

I first off want to say this thread is brilliant; all the interpretations are interesting. I didn't read everything though so sorry if I repeat someone else's thoughts...

I just finished reading Survivor for the second time. Usually when I read a story in which the main character who you feel you've been with through their whole story dies, I feel a sadness. I didn't get that feeling when Tender died and I'm not 100% sure if I think he died or not. I do lean towards the idea he died. He was raised, trained, to someday kill himself if it was necessary. Along with that, he really had no life, not after becoming a packaged messiah. Death for him was a release and a new beginning.

Regarding Fertility, if you remember she said her brother called Tender because he needed a surprise. Maybe she needed the same by telling Tender he could survive knowing in the end he wouldn't.

As for the title, I think its ironic: he survived an oppressive suicide cult but couldn't survive being a new cultural God. Surviving entailed him escaping from varies awful situations and in the end death may have been another form of surviving.

"after readin this book i thought that tender finally died...but now,after readin this thread,i dunno what to think.....as English isn't my native tongue i could have missed some details while readin "Survivor"... "

probly

I've just read the last few pages of the book again, tryign to find these words with missing letters in them, but with no succcess.
I didn't think my spelling was that bad that I can't pick a typo out in a book, but someone who has seen these words with missing letters, where are they?

I like the idea that its a cassette recorder at the end, the first time I read the book I was thinking, didn't he say he took on half a dozen parachutes? Why not just jump out with one of them? To me, the story makes more sense if you believe that he did, in fact, survive, just as Fertility said. (And when he talks about being too stupid to work out how to survive, maybe thats just him covering up for the fact that he has already worked out how to do it)

My point of view is he is not real...I point to these simple facts:
1) Tender Lies
2) Tender uses his date book as an alibi for killing the caseworker, this also covers up any times he may have murdered other people.
3) He discribes Adam differently two different times.
And finally, which not many people have mentioned....
4) Tender seems to know an awfull lot about cleaning up blood, dealing with stab wounds, etc...

He is the killer, using "adam" as an alibi.

Also, sure Fertility talks about Adam, but in reality, Tender talks about Fertility talking about Adam....

[QUOTE=DriveByCurse]I noticed at two or three points towards the end of the book, certain letters were missing in words, like a typo. I thought it might be, but then, thinking about the whole player to recorder thing, I thought Chuck might have done this intentionally. Maybe to subliminally alert us. Maybe letters are missing the way some syllables or fragments of sound are lost when a tape player is running out of batteries, or the tape is 'choking'.

Has anyone else notcied this, or do I just have way too much time on my hands?[/QUOTE]

I noticed a typo too. I think that it's too coincidental that there would only be typos in the one chapter that's supposedly a tape recorder. I think it's a hint.

EDIT: Also, i don't think that fertility was ever wrong. She might have lied, but she wasn't wrong. When she said, earlier in the book, that they end up happily ever after, it sounded sincere to me. I think that's what happened.

Sorry, but i can't find the typo (I only saw one) but it was just that something that should have been plural wasn't.

I also realized that he spends a LOT of time talking about how he's brilliant at hiding the truth. He knows how to clean up after someone too make it look like something never happened. He can find a way to fake anything. I think all of this was a hint that he's hiding his escape, and faking his death at the end. I love the idea that he lived, just because it makes the whole book look like hints towards the ending, and it seems so much more worthwhile.

After reading this whole thread, I believe Tender survived and used the tape recorder. Now, this might sound retarded, but can someone explain to me exactly how he did that? Like, the technical details. Did he record the entire story beforehand? I'm just confused about that. Thanks in advance.

[QUOTE=Tarantinite]After reading this whole thread, I believe Tender survived and used the tape recorder. Now, this might sound retarded, but can someone explain to me exactly how he did that? Like, the technical details. Did he record the entire story beforehand? I'm just confused about that. Thanks in advance. :)[/QUOTE]
At the end of the book, where he starts talking the same way as he did at the start of the book (I don't have my copy with me now, so I can point to any specific chapterrs, sorry), IMO, thats what he recorded. I think he did the last five or so minutes in the toilet, then came out, and started talking tot eh black box. Then when he finished his story, and the plane was close to going down, he started the recorder, and jumped out.

When I read the story first, I was bothered by the fact that he kept talking normally just as the plane crashed, and I can remember thinking then that it was almost as if he wasn't really looking at the ground coming up to meet him. Then, I read this thread, and it all made sense then.

Oh, and I'm still looking for those mis-spelled words, maybe the publishers of the book down here is Australia changed them to be spelled correctly :S

[QUOTE=Ahriman]At the end of the book, where he starts talking the same way as he did at the start of the book (I don't have my copy with me now, so I can point to any specific chapterrs, sorry), IMO, thats what he recorded. I think he did the last five or so minutes in the toilet, then came out, and started talking tot eh black box. Then when he finished his story, and the plane was close to going down, he started the recorder, and jumped out.[/QUOTE]

Ah, I get it now. Thank you.

I just finished it this afternoon, I just figured his plane crashed and that's that. I figured this makes sense when you remember the jokes, i.e., "What do you call a Credish girl who goes down? Dead" etc. That and his monolouges saying that no matter what you do in life, everyone always ends up just as dead as everyone else. Just because of all he's yet to accomplish isn't finished, doesn't mean he isn't as likely to just die like everyone else.

i just finished the book for the third time. the first time i loved it thinking he died, the second time i loved it more thinking he lived, and the third time i decided for sure that adam is a separate person.

so much of the book would have to have been made up. everything about his job cleaning houses. adams did not take jobs like that, or at least were not trained to do so. everything about him finally having sex. he would have already done so with his wife. thats just too much of the book to have made up, you can justify it all with the "lying into the black box idea" but it becomes silly(for me at least). but i really did enjoy reading it again looking for details that might give something away.

what a great book. wtg chuck.

wouldnt the police dig up Adam since they know where he was buried?

It is really strange, but I gotta addmit that at some point in reading the story my natural reaction when I heard that Tender and Adam were twins was "oh god they're the same person"...

Its funny that i waited so long to read this book. didnt like it. made a recent post about how is sucks, and now im gonna have to go and reread it. LOL.. That Chuck of ours....

Okay, so I read this book and thought it kicked ass. BUT, I felt like I wa missing something at the ending......If this is true about the tape recorder-transfer to black box, wouldn't there be like at least a 5 minute silence on the black box as he walked away to go inside the bathroom to tape his fake-out??