THE TRUTH ABOUT SURVIVOR [spoilers]

As my brother recently pointed out of course Tender lives in the end. The title of the book is SURVIVOR!!

There's still the explanation in the [I]Survivor[/I] book section of The Cult. I think the link on the left side of that page is the same as before (i.e., Survivor's Hidden Ending).

"The end of Survivor isn't nearly so complicated. It's noted on page 7 (8?) that a pile of valuable offerings has been left in the front of the passenger cabin. This pile includes a cassette recorder. Even before our hero starts to dictate his story -- during the few minutes he's supposed to be taking a piss -- he's actually in the bathroom dictating the last chapter into the cassette recorder. It's just ranting, nothing important plot-wise,
and it can be interrupted at any point by the destruction of the plane. The minute the fourth engine flames out, he starts the cassette talking, then bails out, into Fertility's waiting arms (she's omniscient, you know). The rest of the book is just one machine whining and bitching to another machine. The crash will destroy the smaller recorder, but the surviving black box will make it appear that Tender is dead."

Supposedly, Chuck P. wrote that. It is a good explanation but I think Chuck did that so people can pick whatever ending they want: whether he dies or lives.

I think he dies and Fertility told him that stuff to make him happier. Sure, she sees the future, but no one ever said she had to do anything about it. Really it's up to the reader to decide, and that is a great ending.

Andy

When a friend of mine told me that Tender actually lived, I got pretty upset. The amazing ending (Testing, testing, one, two...) just seems so perfect for the story. I dunno. I'd just rather have Tender die.

I'm not talking about just the fact that he survived. I mean all about Adam being Tender and Tender being a serial killer... all that stuff.

This way when idiots say things later about how Tender died and was innocent, we can just point to this thread.

But someone else explain for once.

When I first read it and didn't know this "real" ending I thought that Fertility was wrong. She didn't predict her pregnency so I thought she might be wrong about Tender surviving. Or that maybe it was Tender's child inside Fertility surviving onward even though Tender dies.

Tender made up his twin brother. The whole book is Tender's "story" that he's telling to get away "with it." He's just a serial killer, and the book is his elaborate alibi. Adam (was that his brother's name?) is fictional. He blames everything on Adam, then kills him in a waythat he can't be IDed. The word truth is repeated many times in the book, he talks very specifically when Adam is doing something (instead of saying he, he says Adam), etc.

(I DID NOT COME UP WITH THIS, I READ IT ON THE OLD BOARDS)

They are twins. And adam cuts tenders hair. Adam is also married. Tender doesn't lie because of the creedish rules and the bible. Adam also held a gun, fertility also talks to adam. Adam held a gun all night at fertilities hair, ruining it, while tender was somewhere else. fertility talks about adam in the phone with tender about adam and tender meeting at a bus.

this is not fight club. adam is not a character in tender's mind. whether or not tender survived is up to you, believe what you want to believe. in my personal opinion, i believe in the ending that chuck wrote, the one with "one machine bitching and whining to another machine", where tender survives. hence the title.

i think it's up to the reader, not the author, what a book means. when i saw chuck in boston, he offered little explanations of some of his story elements like the one posted above. and i thought to myself with a couple of them, "what a crock of shit." he said himself on several occasions that he's always pleasantly surprised by people's different interpretations of his work. i think it's up to you whether tender dies or not. and i think either version is acceptable.

the book is titled [B]Survivor[/B] because Tender is supposed to be the LAST survivor of the Creedish Death Cult... not because he survived in the end.

However, when I first read the book I too believed that Tender died and that Fertility just lied to him to make him feel better... but after reading the "hidden ending" i agree with that ending also. Fertility was never wrong, and it was her idea about the plane, it was her idea about talking into the black box, it was her idea to fake the world out... and she did just that, she faked out the reader too.

not until you sit down and think for a bit, and you go "oh crap i bet he survived..." and chuck's post just proves that point more. remember Tender got a crash course in flying (no pun intended) before the pilot bailed out, so he could have easily done a controlled decent and made impact a little less damaging.

[b]yet another thing to ponder...[/b] if Tender did bail out long before the plane crashed, then the Flight Data Recorder could be incriminating (remember there are two black boxes, one for audio one for mechanical data). the investigators could find out that Tender stopped flying the plane (talking) and bailed out way before the plane went down (the black boxes work on the same timetable). so if Tender did indeed get away did the investigators find enough evidence to believe that he was still alive? i think they could easily do so, and they would have to look into that possibility. so if he bailed out, he would have had to do so at the VERY last minute to make it look real and have no gaps in recorder time.

one of the reasons i love CP and his books is because they constantly keep you thinking on your toes... during and afther. all of his books leave you hanging at the end in some way, and that is why i can't put them down because it lets my imagination run wild.

I think he was in auto pilot all the time, so he can bail out anytime.
For me he died. It was his salvation.

But the only knack Tender has is for covering up the truth.

To those of you who don't believe that Adam was a maifestation of Tender, I have one piece of advice: just try to read the book again assuming it's all true. Chuck's books are great, what would it hurt to read one again? If you do, I highly recommend assuming that there's an invisible first chapter that told you this was all an alibi given by Tender, who knew if he gave enough detail and convinced the world he was dying, he knew he could get away with it. If you assume all that from the beginning, you get a hell of a book, and it all works out, with a LOT fewer questions.

Next time you read Survivor, at least think about this assumption, because I think most people who have done this swear that it is how the book is supposed to be told.

i agree that the book is open, so that the reader can choose how they want to read it. and i for one think adam was real. if you choose to believe he's not, fine, you like the story better that way. but i like it better this way.

both endings to Survivor are good enough to the eye and mind as anyone could see or realize. either way, it is good plot with a well-written storyline. tender is the man but fertility has the plan.

supernught is the only other one to realize this that did bergums acctually read the story? he was the SURVIVOR of the creedish cult it wasnt because he survived the crash

Of course he survived the cult, and of course that's what 99.9 % of people will assume that the title is what it is. And yes, the story is open-ended, and anyone can interpret it any way they want. But don't criticize the idea because you don't agree with it. It's not the same story line as Fight Club -- in Fight Club, the narrator was fucking cracked and couldn't tell the difference between himself and his best friend. In Survivor, the narrator had a brilliant idea, and invented his brother as an alibi. This does not mean that Survivor is based on the same ideas as Fight Club. If you believe that, then you really didn't get as much out of this book as you could have.

If you think Chuck would read this thread and laugh, WRITE HIM A LETTER, AND ASK IF IT'S TRUE. Instead of speculating, or worse, not speculating, why don't you go straight to the source and ASK HIM. If he tells you what he told me, maybe some of you will open your mind.

I think it's open to interpretation, definitely. I think I like the idea of him living better. I know he said he was putting the plane on autopilot, and he said he was letting the passengers off in exchange for a half dozen parachutes and more little bottles of gin. He only needed one parachute if only the pilot was jumping, yet if he only asked for two, it would seem too obvious that he was planning on taking one too. So why not just blow the number up a little bit? However I didn't catch the cassette recorder bit. Was it when he mentioned the buzz of prerecorded music or something a few pages in? I guess I've just been programmed by cd's to not think about an old cassette player being around.

As for what Kitty was saying, I've always wondered how much authors really intend to put into their books. I think Palahnuik is the best author I've ever read, no doubt, and every one of his books amazes me, but I just wonder if they really write what they think is a cool story and let other people break it down and find all the different ideas behind it. Writing is definitely a field in which a good writer can become epic simply by having enough people read their work and put their own two cents into it, which all seems to be attributed to the author.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by murderkitchen [/i]
[B]"The end of Survivor isn't nearly so complicated. It's noted on page 7 (8?) that a pile of valuable offerings has been left in the front of the passenger cabin. This pile includes a cassette recorder. Even before our hero starts to dictate his story -- during the few minutes he's supposed to be taking a piss -- he's actually in the bathroom dictating the last chapter into the cassette recorder. It's just ranting, nothing important plot-wise,
and it can be interrupted at any point by the destruction of the plane. The minute the fourth engine flames out, he starts the cassette talking, then bails out, into Fertility's waiting arms (she's omniscient, you know). The rest of the book is just one machine whining and bitching to another machine. The crash will destroy the smaller recorder, but the surviving black box will make it appear that Tender is dead."

Supposedly, Chuck P. wrote that. It is a good explanation but I think Chuck did that so people can pick whatever ending they want: whether he dies or lives. [/B][/QUOTE]

thanks...i was trying to explain that to my friend but how you put it is much more understandable than my babble.

I'm inclined to think that Adam is real because yeah, there's just way too much detail about the way Adam looks, his position in the family, etc., to be made up. Think about Fight Club: All we know about Tyler is that he never knew his father and he's blond. That's it. Telling a whole ton of made-up crap about Adam does not seem to be Chuck's style.

Adam was real, and so was Tender. But, I go with Chuck's explanation of the story. And I don't see why people don't accept it. I mean, he is the writer and would know what happens. And, Diesel, it's not that hard to talk to Chuck, just go to a book signing and you can have an entire conversation with him.

Chuck's smart enough not to use the same gimmick twice in a row. Adam was real and so was Tender.

Well, to play devil's advocate, he did use a lot of the same kind of airplane stuff two books in a row. Airplanes are very significant in both FC and Survivor, so maybe it wouldn't be totally out of the question for him to use the 'tyler/adam's not real' thing twice.

I like that ending idea, the tape recorder and all

I don't see why we are still arguing/disscussing this. I mean, Chuck gave the explanation. Seeing as he wrote it, I think he's the ultimate athority about what exactly happened.

P.S. I'm NOT trying to be rude/mean/snoody/or anything like that. I'm just trying to figure out why people are arguing/changing Chuck's explanation.

So? Just because he gave the expalanation doesn't mean shit. Christopher Nolan and David Lynch and Bret Easton Ellis have purposely given false explanations before. So why can't Chuck?

Hey, Leo, you don't have to be mean. I was just asking. And I REALLY doubt Chuck gave a false explanation because the explanation was his way of proving to Dennis that he really was Chuck.

Because it's fun. You got anything better to do?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arkadyevna [/i]
[B]
One last thing... assuming Adam wasn't real, and that the black box is listened to and followed up - won't they go looking for a body buried under the porn on the Creedish estate? And if so what will they find? Will there be one, and if so who is it really? I don't think there are any hints about this, which leads me to suspect that Adam might be real.

Still not sure though. [/B][/QUOTE]

It said there were acres and acres and ACRES of land. There were no landmarks. There would be no way to find the body.

Those of you who say "Adam's real because Tender went into detail about the Creedish church," are just fucking idiots. Tender was from the cult, and he's the last one alive. There's no records in the cult, there's no way to disprove ANYTHING he says about it, including the existence or NON-existence of any of the members.

To whoever said "But he went into detail about how Adam looked!": you also, are a fucking idiot. THEY'RE TWINS! And let me ask you, what color were Adam's eyes? If you read carefully Tender gives two different colors at different times in the book because he's lying and there never was an Adam in the first place.

XChuck, who kept saying that "let's just listen to what the author says and stop thinking," the author ONCE AGAIN only gave you half the story. All of what Chuck is quoted on is true, but he didn't go into detail on the whole cover up.

But as I said before, IF YOU THINK I'M MAKING THIS SHIT UP, WRITE CHUCK A LETTER AND ASK HIM YOURSELF, JUST QUIT SAYING THIS PLOT IS FULL OF SHIT--IT'S NOT--JUST QUIT BEING SUCH A NARROW-MINDED ASSHOLE AND THINK FOR YOURSELF. You can find his publisher's address on this site, and just write c/o Chuck Palahniuk.

The bottom line, Tender was a fucking serial killer. He killed everybody he knew. His case worker, his agent, his fellow-cult members, all murdered. The authorities would suspect he told this long story because he was making a "final confession", and they would think he's clearing his conscience and his legacy. But Tender escaped. He cleared his name, convinced the authorities he was dead, and because of "Adam" (which again, no one could disprove), the entire alibi seemed feasible, and any unpredicted witness testimony against him could be explained by his evil twin.

Tender was a Survivor.

And a serial killer.

[url]http://chuckpalahniuk.community.everyone.net/community/scripts/topics.pl?NodeID=160023&ClientID=204885[/url]

Read "THE TRUTH ABOUT SURVIVOR".

Like here, there are a lot of morons who don't think outside the box. But read the whole thing before you criticize the idea, there is a lot of good stuff in that thread... you just have to weed through it and ignore the imbeciles.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by well

Tender was from the cult, and he's the last one alive. There's no records in the cult, there's no way to disprove ANYTHING he says about it, including the existence or NON-existence of any of the members[/QUOTE]

pg 239 "It was the body of church elders who kept elaborate charts of who'd married which biddy from which family so that what people in the outside world called 'cousins' never married."

So there were records, maybe they were destroyed but I don't recall that being mentioned.

Anyway, I'm going to reread the book with the your premise that its all an enormous alibi in mind.

I've got the list of page #'s from the old chat, post-its, pens and the book. I'll check back with this thread in a couple of days. (Yeah, its a quick read, but I have house guests that have never been to Disneyland)

But I do have one question for you Well. Has it ever occurred to you that Palahniuk read your letter and just couldn't bring himself to disapoint you after all the work you put into your theory?

He often brings up how a gay man explained to him how Fight Club was all about the subculture of gay bath houses. And how it was so elaborate and well thought out, he just had to agree.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by well [/i]
[B]It said there were acres and acres and ACRES of land. There were no landmarks. There would be no way to find the body.

Those of you who say "Adam's real because Tender went into detail about the Creedish church," are just fucking idiots. Tender was from the cult, and he's the last one alive. There's no records in the cult, there's no way to disprove ANYTHING he says about it, including the existence or NON-existence of any of the members.

To whoever said "But he went into detail about how Adam looked!": you also, are a fucking idiot. THEY'RE TWINS! And let me ask you, what color were Adam's eyes? If you read carefully Tender gives two different colors at different times in the book because he's lying and there never was an Adam in the first place.

XChuck, who kept saying that "let's just listen to what the author says and stop thinking," the author ONCE AGAIN only gave you half the story. All of what Chuck is quoted on is true, but he didn't go into detail on the whole cover up.

But as I said before, IF YOU THINK I'M MAKING THIS SHIT UP, WRITE CHUCK A LETTER AND ASK HIM YOURSELF, JUST QUIT SAYING THIS PLOT IS FULL OF SHIT--IT'S NOT--JUST QUIT BEING SUCH A NARROW-MINDED ASSHOLE AND THINK FOR YOURSELF. You can find his publisher's address on this site, and just write c/o Chuck Palahniuk.

The bottom line, Tender was a fucking serial killer. He killed everybody he knew. His case worker, his agent, his fellow-cult members, all murdered. The authorities would suspect he told this long story because he was making a "final confession", and they would think he's clearing his conscience and his legacy. But Tender escaped. He cleared his name, convinced the authorities he was dead, and because of "Adam" (which again, no one could disprove), the entire alibi seemed feasible, and any unpredicted witness testimony against him could be explained by his evil twin.

Tender was a Survivor.

And a serial killer. [/B][/QUOTE]

And Well is a fucking asshole prick who thinks that he's big shit because he read other people's theories on how the book works.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by well [/i]
[B]To whoever said "But he went into detail about how Adam looked!": you also, are a fucking idiot. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, that was me. Thanks man. Fuck you. Your theory is no more or less valid's than anyone else's, so why don't you just shut up unless you have something constructive to say? My point, anyway, was not one of facts, but one of style. Go back and read it again, if that's not too hard for you.

No, I'm pretty sure Chuck wasn't just leading me on. The way I asked the question wasn't in much detail, and left him with most of the explaining, which he did very, very well. I don't take credit for the work in this theory. I started this thread because it was a new message board where no one else had mentioned it. It all started with shark909. I don't think I'm "big shit" for this, I'm just tired of seeing people give up on _thinking_, and seeing others accept and follow the same procedure. To those of you who are going to read the book again from a new perspective: good for you. To the rest of you, shut the fuck up and quit complaining about it.

And if I hurt your feelings by calling you a fucking idiot or a dumbass or retarded or whateverthefuck you are, what can I say, maybe the Internet isn't for you.

The Internet can be an offensive place.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by well [/i]
[B]No, I'm pretty sure Chuck wasn't just leading me on. The way I asked the question wasn't in much detail, and left him with most of the explaining, which he did very, very well. I don't take credit for the work in this theory. I started this thread because it was a new message board where no one else had mentioned it. It all started with shark909. I don't think I'm "big shit" for this, I'm just tired of seeing people give up on _thinking_, and seeing others accept and follow the same procedure. To those of you who are going to read the book again from a new perspective: good for you. To the rest of you, shut the fuck up and quit complaining about it.

And if I hurt your feelings by calling you a fucking idiot or a dumbass or retarded or whateverthefuck you are, what can I say, maybe the Internet isn't for you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Or perhaps you're just an insecure, fucking retard. You fucking talentless piece of shit. Go away.

After reading the things I've written, I can see how you got "insecure", "talentless", and "fucking retard"... but where does "piece of shit" come from?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by well [/i]
[B]After reading the things I've written, I can see how you got "insecure", "talentless", and "fucking retard"... but where does "piece of shit" come from? [/B][/QUOTE]

Apparently right next to witty.

people, people, people. aren't we all on the same side here? we all love chuck's books, isn't that enough. this should be a place where people can write their theories without having to worry that someone is going to ridicule them with petty name calling. personally, i never even considered that adam didn't exist, call me stupid or naive or whatever you want. i'm just looking forward to rereading one of my favorite books with a new twist in mind.

One word, people, and that word is "Chill". I'd follow it by "the fuck out", but that'd be four words. ;/

Check the link out on the previous page and READ it, its worth it. This adds a whole new dimension to the book and to CP's brilliance.

Thanks Well

think about that his brother said. That he wants him to be able to be free and live a fullfiling life free from the church. Fertility told adam how it would all end and adam was happy with it. If he were told Tender would die he would not have been happy. All the theories about the endings are good though.

i think he dies, and fertility knows it...and like the guy above said, she tells him that stuff to make him feel better

k there seems to be alot of arguing here eh. since im too lost on where to understand the big argument with whats happenning someone tell me where im wrong.

my view on the book

tender's brother was real, and at the end tender survived due to the whole tape cassette black box theory thinger majinger.

so thats what i think, its not my opinion just what i think happenned. so tell me were i went wrong, like there seems to be many sides to this thing and i wanna know how what i think the book was about/ended is wrong or right

"Tender survived, and used that cassette trick. "

I agree but mainly because I want to believe tender made it. it's just too sad to think he'd die never having good sex.

Tender's last words were something like: "Mic check, one two.."

yeah that is weird, huh?

"Also, there was something about Tender questioning the pilot about where exactly the plane was going to crash.. It all makes sense now."

huh? how does that prove or disprove anything? maybe tender just wanted to make sure he wouldn't crash into anywhere with people. since he's "not a murderer" after all.

"why did Adam need the goddamn alibi if he was going to fake his death anyway?"

now that's a good question, but it could be so that no one figures out that he may have faked his own death so the feds don't come looking for him since he's innocent anyway. Or, maybe Tender is in total denial and created Adam as a way to assuage his guilt. I dunno, personally I think Adam was too essential to the plot to have been made up (i.e. adam is the reason tender started freaking out and didn't answer his phone, adam taught tender and fertility how to sneak in the mobile home, adam made tender remember that he was forced to watch childbirth, etc.)

Well, your theory seems to remind me of Memento. A weird coincidence is that when I looked for some Memento reviews, whose did I find? Chuck's at [url]www.metaphilm.com[/url]

Adam is in a gay relationship with Tender,Fertility finds out and kills Adam. Tender uses the excuse of saving Ferility as a suicide attempt(depends on which ending you prefer). Tender learns about what Fertility did to Adam and is overcome with a passion for her and sets the recorder down then jumps to her arms....Blah blah blah.

Oh yeah,then they were captured by island natives andskinned alive then eaten.

Tender/Adam Issue.

The Bus Scene.

Tender and Fertility our on a bus Adam is telling jokes. And Fertility says later on the phone that she knew they were brothers.

Now I know what your thinking Tender just lied into the black box, but then Tender could have lied about every single thing in the book. That's the problem with stories told from the character's perspective. You have to trust the character, so do you trust Tender? Or do you think Tender is a pathological liar and killed everyone except Fertility? He could of killed her to if you think he lied about everything else, All the passengers could still be on the plane and he could of shot the Pilots in the head. The possiblities are endless if you don't trust the character telling the story.