did jack hit bottom when he shot himself?

i figured as much. you seem intelligent enough to not be a jingoist.
you should start a thread where you tell about crazy shit you see as a soldier.

I would start a thread like that but I can't. I am an intelligence analyst and because of this I pretty much can't talk about my job.

dammit. that would be even better.
(obligatory army joke) Military intelligence? Is that possible?

I've never heard that one before

Its an okay job, not nearly as exciting as you would think.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]I think the whole point of the novel/movie is that we all find our true identity after some sort of death to our former self. We have to let something go in order to move on to something new.

Remember the references during the fight scenes, of a Pentecostal church and speaking in tongues, the "In Tyler we trust" statements? It's like, lots of church people believe that baptism is a "death to self" ceremony. When they go under, they die to their old identity, and when they re-emerge, they are "ressurected" like Christ. Just like Brian "Head" Welch of Korn just did a few weeks ago in the Jordan River.

The "death to self" was the point in Fight Club. It was recreating yourself without the help of God or any other institution (remember the conversation "If we are God's unwanted children, then so be it... ...We don't need him.")

Hitting bottom was equated with some sort of "salvation". literally saving yoursel from clever art and imported furniture and an otherwise dead end lifestyle without risk, adventure or identity.[/QUOTE]

Just thought I'd throw this back in the mix... But don't worry, i don't see tyler Durden as Jesus like some wackos... I see the process of cleansing and death to the former way of life as parallelled in many processes in life.

I see hitting bottom as not the moment of 'salvation' but the moment you realize you need it. Salvation itself is more of a process that the person saving themselves must undergo.

as a sidenote, does anyone here feel they have actually hit bottom? if so, how? what are you doing about it now?

I don't know if I have actually hit bottom before but it certainly felt like I did in Marine Corps boot camp. I have never had a moment in my life where I cared less about everything. I honestly didn't see anything as being significant including myself. That day I quit I felt more free than I ever had in my life. We were on a 6 mile hike with full rucks at the buttcrack of dawn and I simply quit walking.

That was it- no theatrics no bullshit- I just stopped walking. From that point on I decided that I was going to take control of my life. That I was no longer going to be a sheep and that I would no longer do things simply because others wanted me to. Some days are better than others but I try to live by that even now.

Of course I ended up joining the USAF about a year and a half after quitting the Marines. That will all be over in a little over a year though, I can't wait.

what made you change your mind and join the usaf after quitting the marines?

The air force is the only branch of the service that allows any level of individualism. It is also the one in which you are most treated like a human being. I can express myself and most people view me as a person. In the USMC you are simply a rifleman, not a human being. Rank is far less important in the Air Force. I can shoot the shit with people far above my paygrade in the air force. That would be unheard of in the other branches. I can speak to my boss without having to say sir every fucking sentance.

That and, when we deploy we get treated much better- we get hot meals when they get MRE's. We stay in 5 star hotels when they sleep in tents etc.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]Just thought I'd throw this back in the mix... But don't worry, i don't see tyler Durden as Jesus like some wackos... I see the process of cleansing and death to the former way of life as parallelled in many processes in life.[/QUOTE]

Thank for bumping this back up in the thread, [B]Ire[/B]. It was your thoughts that served as the flashpoint for what I was babbling about a few posts back. I don't see how anyone could believe Tyler is supposed to be Jesus--but then I live in the Bible Belt and I don't see how much of what is believed around here gets believed. Aside: I work in a book store and the other day, an older lady was wandering around the store. I asked if she needed help finding anything. She says (and I am not making this up): "The only book I have ever read is the only book I will ever read and that book is the Bible." Before I could stop myself I said, "I'm sorry, but I don't think the sequel is available yet." I am so going to hell.

What everyone here seems to be onto, albeit from differnet approaches, is that any rigid definition of the self in terms of the external world is going to evenually lead to its own project mayhem. Addicts are the purest examples of this syndrome. We think of addicts as being drowning in their poison of choice but addiction is a pendulum arcing between binging and purging; letting something control you absolutely until it reaches the apex and then swinging back to where you believe you are in absolute control of yourself and then back again. Just because a person isn't using, doesn't mean that person is sober.

Addiction is essentially an illness of the will, the belief that if I could control this one element of the exeterior world, I can control the interior chaos of my humanity. CP is looking at the nature of addiction in Fight Club for what it really is: the indvidual's war with God. Not the gods of our invention, but the Great Almighty Wizard of What IS. The trouble starts when we start counting on the deities of our invention--we start expecting them to come through for us, and we start resenting them when they don't. The difference between a fight club and a support group is the difference between the bone-crushing work of real recovery and going someplace to get hugged and told you are beautiful the way you are. Chuck is satirizing the hell out of the lie behind the latter. AA holds that there is no way the program will work until the addict has hit bottom--has reached the point where is willing to let himself be hit as hard as reality can hit him--in order to make the terrible swinging between extremes stop. You got to be pretty far gone before that happens.

So [B]sacredchao23[/B], you are abolutely right, hitting bottom is the moment you know you need saving not the moment you are saved. In the orginal baptismal ritual, they held you down until you nearly drown, saw "the light" of what we now call a near death experience, and then they brought you back from death--truly reborn. I think that you are right about the symbolic destruction of the "crutches" of ownership and a sense belonging (being owned?) to fight club are being ripped down. Jack/Joe (Reader's Digest, which ran the original I am Joe's Whatnot wouldn't give the movie rights to use Joe; hence Jack). At the end of the film, the Narrator's final words are spoken to Marla "you've met me at a very strange time in my life." This is the first honest, sober thing he's said to anyone. He's been stripped naked of all his delusions. That final scene, of them standing hand in hand like Adam and Eve reborn and watching the big bang birth of a new Eden, is indeed symbolic, but also direly so: what goes around comes back around. We are and always shall be only human.

[B]capitalistnihilist[/B], if you'd given me 10,000 guesses based on your writings here in the forums, I wouldn't even have gotten close to "military" in terms of what you do for a living. Your mind just comes across as too fluid and graceful for my assumptions about what the military makes of people. So, another stereotype gets crushed. I know a lot of French people. I married one, in fact. Lovely culture, wonderfully warm extended family feel to life. Two hour lunches. The entire month of August is mandatory vacation for everyone. Still, as a whole, the French revel in the notion that we puny-minded, tight-assed English do not get their inherent gloriousness. They unclog their noses in our general direction--like an annoying silbling--just to watch us get pissed off. Freedom Fries, anyone? Sort of proves their point. There's a reason we call ourselves the brotherhood of humanity and not the mutual admiration society of humanity.

I know something about hitting bottom. But every time I think I've reached the ground floor and I buy furniture and a bed and put a few pictures on the wall, get settled in to watch some TV-[I]-wham![/I]--the floor falls out from beneath me and I'm in free fall again.

[B]capitalistnihilist[/B] if not too much trouble, could you send a spare parachute?

[QUOTE=Luddy Dunn] "The only book I have ever read is the only book I will ever read and that book is the Bible." Before I could stop myself I said, "I'm sorry, but I don't think the sequel is available yet." I am so going to hell.
[/QUOTE]

OMG! thats hilarious! You deserve a friggin prize for that.
about the sequal though - you could have suggested the book of mormon. i guess it qualifies.

I can relate to being in the freaking bible belt. I grew up in Abilene Texas- a town that has a street with at least 15 churches on it. ONE street with 15 churches. In highschool I knew kids who gave away every CD they owned because they were "evil" and didn't glorify the allmighty god.

I used to lie to everyone and say I belived just to keep them off my fucking back. They really were like those losers in "Saved!" Their mission in life was to fucking convert everyone. Meh.

[QUOTE=Luddy Dunn]

[B]capitalistnihilist[/B], if you'd given me 10,000 guesses based on your writings here in the forums, I wouldn't even have gotten close to "military" in terms of what you do for a living. Your mind just comes across as too fluid and graceful for my assumptions about what the military makes of people. So, another stereotype gets crushed. I know a lot of French people. I married one, in fact. Lovely culture, wonderfully warm extended family feel to life. Two hour lunches. The entire month of August is mandatory vacation for everyone. Still, as a whole, the French revel in the notion that we puny-minded, tight-assed English do not get their inherent gloriousness. They unclog their noses in our general direction--like an annoying silbling--just to watch us get pissed off. Freedom Fries, anyone? Sort of proves their point. There's a reason we call ourselves the brotherhood of humanity and not the mutual admiration society of humanity.
[B]capitalistnihilist[/B] if not too much trouble, could you send a spare parachute?[/QUOTE]

Its fun shattering stereotypes. But rest assured that most members of the military are nothing like me. In fact I am quite certain I just flat out don't belong.

As for parachutes- I have never even touched one so I can't help you there.

[QUOTE=capitalistnihilist]I can relate to being in the freaking bible belt. I grew up in Abilene Texas- a town that has a street with at least 15 churches on it. ONE street with 15 churches. In highschool I knew kids who gave away every CD they owned because they were "evil" and didn't glorify the allmighty god.

I used to lie to everyone and say I belived just to keep them off my fucking back. They really were like those losers in "Saved!" Their mission in life was to fucking convert everyone. Meh.[/QUOTE]

i was born in Missouri but moved to Fresno, CA when i was 3. im convinced now its the worst place on earth. it is a college city with no art theatre, no independent movie/music buying places, nothing. just corporate crap consumerism and way too many SUVs per capita. unfortunately, its also where all my friends and my parents live. sigh.

i almost forgot the entire point of what i was saying. - my dad is a preacher, as is my grandfather. so, i might as well of lived in the bible belt cuz it came with me.

[B]Ed Norton = Jack[/B]

This is a final resolution to the stupid question of [B]“Who is Jack/Why do we call him Jack[/B]?” etc…

Watch Fight club with the commentary on. Any of the 4 commentaries, actually.

The screenwriter, director and cast all refer to Ed Norton’s character as Jack. Even Chuck himself says “We call him Jack because there’s no other name to call him.”
There's your answer and your reason all wrapped up in one sentence.

If the writer of the novel, writer of the screenplay, director and full cast refer to this character as Jack, then it’s good enough for me.

Now please, since there has finally been produced simple, sound, rational reasoning as to why he is referred to as Jack, let this quesiton rest.

Thank you.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled life.

Good point Ire. But, my life is anything but regularly scheduled.

[QUOTE=capitalistnihilist]Good point Ire. But, my life is anything but regularly scheduled.[/QUOTE]
I know... it's just that there was this italian dude (Well, I spose I can't be sure, but his name had Daego in it. so I figured Italian... but that's cool, I'm Italian too.. anyways...) who was just oging nuts on people about calling Ed Jack. At one point he even sugested calling him Tyler Durden as well...

Why would it even matter what we call him? People so stuck on labels piss me off.

[QUOTE=capitalistnihilist]Why would it even matter what we call him? People so stuck on labels piss me off.[/QUOTE]
yeah.. I dunno. It was just so we could discuss "Jack" hitting bottom without having to refer to him as Edward Norton's character or the narrator. Jack is easier to type.

I love the pen joke by hedberg. I did that as well, only I bought a $200 pen.

[QUOTE=capitalistnihilist]I love the pen joke by hedberg. I did that as well, only I bought a $200 pen.[/QUOTE]
yeesh... are you .. compensating for something or what?

No, I just love Mont Blancs.

[QUOTE=Mad Daego] And for those of you shivering with glee, about to tear me apart for posting about "tough guy macho posturing", none of this is a lie. I would have NEVER even posted something like this if it weren't for some fucking douche calling me out physically. I'd be happy to stick to a battle of the wits, without needing any such real-world street cred, relying only on my intelligence but it seems someone couldn't take the heat and resorted to making inferences he could never hope to live up to. (I'm refering to Atomos, since a few of you seem to confuse easily)
.[/QUOTE]

for the record i didnt 'call you out' i sarcasticly fueled thsi rediculous argument because ive been bored lately and it seemed like a fun idea at the time. im not out to make enemies or piss people off without due cause.

oh and i hate halo.

[QUOTE=Atomos]for the record i didnt 'call you out' i sarcasticly fueled thsi rediculous argument because ive been bored lately and it seemed like a fun idea at the time. im not out to make enemies or piss people off without due cause.

oh and i hate halo.[/QUOTE]

This, I can relate to. I don't think anyone else knew it was supposed to be ridiculous to begin with. They were too anxious to feed their ego. Anyone who doesn't realize that message board debates can teach you as fast as a professional course, well, you get the idea.

I am Jack's first impression.

[QUOTE=Mad Daego]This, I can relate to. I don't think anyone else knew it was supposed to be ridiculous to begin with. They were too anxious to feed their ego. Anyone who doesn't realize that message board debates can teach you as fast as a professional course, well, you get the idea.

I am Jack's first impression.[/QUOTE]
nice cover...

Though I will admit that you have, in fact, come off as ridiculous.

I'll give you that.

Do you really want to get this started again? You know what, forget it. Your lack of skills bored me to tears the first time around. The precise reason I left Minneapolis, boring, self righteous dipshits who's only claim to worth is their continuing refusal to lie down and die. You'll be waiting at the flagpole alone for this one.

daego..
with as much respect as i can muster insulance for the sake of insulance may seem like how we roll here. but there has to be some kind of redeeming quality to it or ya just come off as if you were a soggy shit sandwich

[QUOTE=Mad Daego]Do you really want to get this started again? You know what, forget it. Your lack of skills bored me to tears the first time around. The precise reason I left Minneapolis, boring, self righteous dipshits who's only claim to worth is their continuing refusal to lie down and die. You'll be waiting at the flagpole alone for this one.[/QUOTE]

......yawn.......

Oh, wait...ZING! Good one. ? Ya got me there.

Now then: Are you done?

Look, man...

If you really are Jack's first impression, then you're coming off as a dick. I'm not saying you ARE a dick, but if you're not, then you need to work on you delivery. I've honestly tried to change the direction of this thread (since that silly argument) and even give you a way out of your sad argument, and you are the only one who insists on turning this inot a flame fest. If you'll notice, I'm not rolling off the insults back. I'm being honest and up front.

I can also see how you may have misinterpreted some of my previous posts, but I'm usually a very light-hearted, dryly sarcastic kinda guy. It's hard, however, to misinterpret [I]" boring, self righteous dipshits who's only claim to worth is their continuing refusal to lie down and die. "[/I]

Who's really being self righteous in this situation, anyways?

We've settled why he's called Jack. Chuck called him Jack. Brad Pitt, Edward Norton, David Fincher... Hell they all called him Jack.

The only thing that's not settled is your insistence on flaming me. I spose if you have some persecution complex, you could view my responses as infamatory towards you... or you could just get over yourself and try to have some fun here on the Cult, which is what I fully intend to do.

This is my last post directed towards you, and if you persist in flaming me, I'll only end up putting you on "ignore" and getting on with the rest of my dealings on the Cult. Not that you care, I know... I know... You're above dipshits like me. But honestly...

Okay, I'm done.

[QUOTE=luddy dunn] Thank for bumping this back up in the thread, Ire. It was your thoughts that served as the flashpoint for what I was babbling about a few posts back. I don't see how anyone could believe Tyler is supposed to be Jesus--but then I live in the Bible Belt and I don't see how much of what is believed around here gets believed. Aside: I work in a book store and the other day, an older lady was wandering around the store. I asked if she needed help finding anything. She says (and I am not making this up): "The only book I have ever read is the only book I will ever read and that book is the Bible." Before I could stop myself I said, "I'm sorry, but I don't think the sequel is available yet." I am so going to hell.

What everyone here seems to be onto, albeit from differnet approaches, is that any rigid definition of the self in terms of the external world is going to evenually lead to its own project mayhem. Addicts are the purest examples of this syndrome. We think of addicts as being drowning in their poison of choice but addiction is a pendulum arcing between binging and purging; letting something control you absolutely until it reaches the apex and then swinging back to where you believe you are in absolute control of yourself and then back again. Just because a person isn't using, doesn't mean that person is sober.

Addiction is essentially an illness of the will, the belief that if I could control this one element of the exeterior world, I can control the interior chaos of my humanity. CP is looking at the nature of addiction in Fight Club for what it really is: the indvidual's war with God. Not the gods of our invention, but the Great Almighty Wizard of What IS. The trouble starts when we start counting on the deities of our invention--we start expecting them to come through for us, and we start resenting them when they don't. The difference between a fight club and a support group is the difference between the bone-crushing work of real recovery and going someplace to get hugged and told you are beautiful the way you are. Chuck is satirizing the hell out of the lie behind the latter. AA holds that there is no way the program will work until the addict has hit bottom--has reached the point where is willing to let himself be hit as hard as reality can hit him--in order to make the terrible swinging between extremes stop. You got to be pretty far gone before that happens. [/QUOTE]

Man, you're pendulum idea is so dead on. People swinging betweeen extremes in their lives. It works on many levels as well.

But I'm intrigued by another point you made: [I]"The trouble starts when we start counting on the deities of our invention--we start expecting them to come through for us, and we start resenting them when they don't."[/I]

This point, to me, shows how people need God, or a god, by whatever definition they choose to ascribe to it, to center their lives around. Often times it is an addiction, a hobby, or a religion. Whatever it is that Johnny or Suzie Q Public is always talking about, saving $$ for or spending $$ on, that's the "god". It only really becomes "addiction" when it reaches an unhealthy level. When one is spending the rent money on getting high or gambling or some hobby, ten it's beginning to progress to an unhealthy level.

Religion and the religious would argue that there is no unhealthy level of devotion, but that's because they all (well, most) have a back up plan built in that says God will always come to the rescue oin dire circumstances and will also never ask too much of you. (I'll leave my personal beliefs out of this for the moment.)

So, hitting bottom...

I think Jack wanted to desperately avoid hitting bottom, and the part of him that split off did that for him. I don't think Jack ever hit bottom in the events we saw, as much as he tried to keep the part of him that hit bottom under control, and once it became clear that he was losing control, he killed it (Tyler).

To me, it seems that Marla hit bottom because she was okay with it, and Jack would have hit bottom had he not had the split that produced Tyler as an alter ego who was living at the bottom and loving it. In his right mind, Jack would have never hit bottom. That is why Tyler came along, and also why Tyler lived at the bottom, to balance out Jacks sickeningly safe and unfulfilling life.

The unfulfilling life is where Jack, in his way, hit bottom, and that impact produced Tyler Durden.

[QUOTE=ireLocus]M
But I'm intrigued by another point you made: [I]"The trouble starts when we start counting on the deities of our invention--we start expecting them to come through for us, and we start resenting them when they don't."[/I]

This point, to me, shows how people need God, or a god, by whatever definition they choose to ascribe to it, to center their lives around. Often times it is an addiction, a hobby, or a religion. Whatever it is that Johnny or Suzie Q Public is always talking about, saving $$ for or spending $$ on, that's the "god". It only really becomes "addiction" when it reaches an unhealthy level. When one is spending the rent money on getting high or gambling or some hobby, ten it's beginning to progress to an unhealthy level.
[/QUOTE]

you make an interesting point here. Im going to very inarticulately disagree and agree with you at the same time. it probably wont make any sense but here goes.

If your god is yourself, your own existence, who you are, how your live, how you relate to other people then i dont think you have a god. You simply "are." i mean this in some kind of weird, existential way that i cant really explain. You are you, with no strings attached. You are Jack's epiphany. You are jack's final result.
Like i said - makes no sense, but i think theirs something there. With some help, it could probably be fleshed out.

About levels of devotion, not that my point really adds to the rest of the argument -
I think things get to an unhealthy level in any belief system when the ends begin to justify the means. When you are killing doctors to stop abortions, you are going to far. When you bomb a slaughterhouse and kill 5 workers to stop the meat industry, you are going to far. Thats the point the overlyzealous followers of any cause dont seem to understand.

[QUOTE=sacredchao23]you make an interesting point here. Im going to very inarticulately disagree and agree with you at the same time. it probably wont make any sense but here goes.

If your god is yourself, your own existence, who you are, how your live, how you relate to other people then i dont think you have a god. You simply "are." i mean this in some kind of weird, existential way that i cant really explain. You are you, with no strings attached. You are Jack's epiphany. You are jack's final result.
Like i said - makes no sense, but i think theirs something there. With some help, it could probably be fleshed out.

About levels of devotion, not that my point really adds to the rest of the argument -
I think things get to an unhealthy level in any belief system when the ends begin to justify the means. When you are killing doctors to stop abortions, you are going to far. When you bomb a slaughterhouse and kill 5 workers to stop the meat industry, you are going to far. Thats the point the overlyzealous followers of any cause dont seem to understand.[/QUOTE]
I think we totally agree, and if there are points on which we do not, they are semantic at best.

I especially agree about your point of killing abortion doctors. 2 wrongs never make a right, especially in this case.

Any thing that you are devoted to must be kept in balance. Reason and emotion, feelings and knowledge.

yah your probably right. Fuckin semantics, always screwing with people who otherwise are in complete agreement.

[QUOTE=sacredchao23]yah your probably right. Fuckin semantics, always screwing with people who otherwise are in complete agreement.[/QUOTE]
fuckin a, man.. fuckin a....